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Catalan Referendum

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BBc's political reporter Kamal Ahmed just been saying that  this is worse than Brexit for the EU simply because there is no rulebook for a country leaving the eurozone, not just the EU.  He explained that if Catalonia were to go it alone, as an independent state, then Junkers plans for the EU would collapse.  He also said that Catalonian GDP is bigger than Portugals and if GB and Catalonia both leave the EU then the EU would struggle to fill their budget hole.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jasper said:

BBc's political reporter Kamal Ahmed just been saying that  this is worse than Brexit for the EU simply because there is no rulebook for a country leaving the eurozone, not just the EU.  He explained that if Catalonia were to go it alone, as an independent state, then Junkers plans for the EU would collapse.  He also said that Catalonian GDP is bigger than Portugals and if GB and Catalonia both leave the EU then the EU would struggle to fill their budget hole.

 

 

Basically if the EU can't cope with self determination it needs to change or be replaced 

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2 hours ago, bowes said:

Basically if the EU can't cope with self determination it needs to change or be replaced 

We were told that the EU interferes to much in sovereign business.  Now it doesn't do enough?  I'm confused.

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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I fear that this is going to end in violence. The Spanish government seem determined to go to any lengths to stop any Talk of independance. It just hope we dont See a group similar to Eta Start up in Catalonia.

This could also see the Basque seperatists also jump on the Bandwagon. Group like Eta will no doubt be looking to take advantage of a weakening Spain.

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19 hours ago, Jasper said:

BBc's political reporter Kamal Ahmed just been saying that  this is worse than Brexit for the EU simply because there is no rulebook for a country leaving the eurozone, not just the EU.  He explained that if Catalonia were to go it alone, as an independent state, then Junkers plans for the EU would collapse.  He also said that Catalonian GDP is bigger than Portugals and if GB and Catalonia both leave the EU then the EU would struggle to fill their budget hole.

 

 

Yes, that's a good example of the type of speculative nonsense that the BBc has come out with as a substitute for any real understanding of what is happening.

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2 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

The Spanish govt and fa have already said that

And, I believe, Barca have already said they would find an alternative league if they had to.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Yes, the barça issue has come up more than once as a useful tool for misinformation on both sides. Catalans claiming Monaco somehow set a precedent for teams from outside a country in a foreign league, and the ROSpain chortling over a league where Barça play Tarragona Sabadell and Llerida every week.

It doesn't help the situation.

Edited by marklaspalmas

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21 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

We were told that the EU interferes to much in sovereign business.  Now it doesn't do enough?  I'm confused.

The thing is the EU try to micromanage on things like lightbulb design, and harrass Hungary and Poland over every minor issue, but they are willing to cheerlead the use of police violence against peaceful voters when it's Spain responsible. If an African or eastern European country did what Spain had done there would be international condemnation, but because it's Spain they can be as fascist as they want without repercussion

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I bet no one in Catalunya expected the Spanish imposition.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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11 hours ago, bowes said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/european-arrest-warrant-issued-for-ex-catalan-leader-carles-puigdemont?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The EU are now openly helping a fascist government round up the political leadership of a minority group

I'm no fan of the PP but you are misusing the word fascist. Not sure why.

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7 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

I'm no fan of the PP but you are misusing the word fascist. Not sure why.

Setting police on a minority group merely because they were voting and rounding up their leadership seems pretty much continuing where Franco left off. Falangist is probably more accurate than fascist 

Edited by bowes

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8 minutes ago, bowes said:

Setting police on a minority group merely because they were voting and rounding up their leadership seems pretty much continuing where Franco left off. Falangist is probably more accurate than fascist 

I assume you know your Spanish history and therefore you'll know also that your analogy is totally inaccurate. You've sidestepped how 1/10 came about and why the police were there.

The roots of the current situation stretch back to the industrial revolution and of course the dictatorship still sometimes casts a dimming shadow over modern Spanish poltics. As I said, I am no PP fan but to call them falangist is pointless and untrue.

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Just now, marklaspalmas said:

I assume you know your Spanish history and therefore you'll know also that your analogy is totally inaccurate. You've sidestepped how 1/10 came about and why the police were there.

The roots of the current situation stretch back to the industrial revolution and of course the dictatorship still sometimes casts a dimming shadow over modern Spanish poltics. As I said, I am no PP fan but to call them falangist is pointless and untrue.

This just one episode in a long history of brutal repression of the Catalans. They were attacked by the police solely for exercising their right to self determination and democracy. Sadly the world is no longer the one it was that welcomed new countries in the 1990s

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7 minutes ago, bowes said:

This just one episode in a long history of brutal repression of the Catalans. They were attacked by the police solely for exercising their right to self determination and democracy. Sadly the world is no longer the one it was that welcomed new countries in the 1990s

Again, you are not addressing how 1/10 came about.

And lumping Catalunya in with states that gained independence in the 90s is irrelevant and pointless. Where is the similarity to, say, Croatia?

Just to clarify my stance.

I think the Spanish conservative government are a largely p iss poor rabble who have consistently mishandled this situation.

I firmly believe that there is enough support in Catalunya for independence to justify a vote/referendum on the issue, and I support their right to that. However, 1/10 was not that, and few people are still pretending it was.

The Catalan govt. knew how this would play out, it's been quite predictable in many ways, and so it's hard to avoid the conclusion that the status quo today is what they wanted. Populist sloganism and anti-PP rhetoric were the main pillars of 1/10 whereas anyone truly looking for independence really should have been concentrating on outlining the meat & bones of the creation of a new nation.

The Catalan govt, like the Spanish govt. have played their hand badly.

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Spot on from Mark - fascist is a poor word for their actions. And dragging the EU into it is pretty poor form - the Catalan government deliberately broke the law and knew how this would play out. The Spanish government (or, more accurately their judiciary) are using a perfectly legal extradition agreement that everyone signed up to for good reasons.

As Mark says, there's a strong case for a referendum in Catalunya but the Spanish constitution has no provision for it.


"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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5 hours ago, bowes said:

What can the Catalans do when Spain are denying them democracy and constantly attacking their autonomy?

By allowing them a devolved parliament?  

I think the Spanish government have been braindead in their handling of this, but the idea that Catalonia is some oppressed nation under the jackboot is hard to believe.  Though for some reason, brexiteers keep pushing that angle? 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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6 hours ago, bowes said:

What can the Catalans do when Spain are denying them democracy and constantly attacking their autonomy?

Denied democracy? That's a distorted view.

I had some sympathy with the independence movement over what I saw as intransigence on the part of the current govt. over the issue. The easiest thing to have done would have been to wait for a change of central govt. But it seems they had lost all patience and the laws went out the window. You just can't do that. That's anarchy.

All Spanish regions enjoy a large amount of autonomy. It isn't and hasn't been attacked by the current govt as most of it is set into the constitution. The levels of autonomy are wide ranging and and are even higher in Catalunya and Pais Vasco than in the other 15 regions.

FWIW I think Puigdemont set himself on a kamikaze course, lost his bottle and tried to pull out after 1/10 by fudging his post "referendum" speech, and has now played into the central govt's hands.

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I think we also need to remember, at the last elections in 2015, independent parties in Catalunya won 70 of 135 seats. That's 51.8%. To that point, the figure of independent favouring voters was always around 40/45%. I would allow this figure to even have been up to 55% at times, but it is far from being such a majority of the population.

21/12 will be interesting to see. Proper elections which will obviously be run as a de facto referendum, but properly and legally organised.

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1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:

I think we also need to remember, at the last elections in 2015, independent parties in Catalunya won 70 of 135 seats. That's 51.8%. To that point, the figure of independent favouring voters was always around 40/45%. I would allow this figure to even have been up to 55% at times, but it is far from being such a majority of the population.

21/12 will be interesting to see. Proper elections which will obviously be run as a de facto referendum, but properly and legally organised.

52% near enough. THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN!!!!

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"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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