RFL HQ - Where should it be? (Merged threads)

[LeeF]

16 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

I owe you an apology. The council own the land and facilities around it. The RFL own the house and stables.

Sorry mate

And Jamie Acton owns a spot in the car park

[Mattrhino]

7 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

The article did, yes. Although - and in fairness to you - the T&A is not nowdays known for the accuracy in the detail of its stories.  Since the excellent Ross Heppenstall was let go, most of what they report is merely someone else's copy.

If the RFL DID own Rot Hall, then I suggest they shgould very definitely seek to sell it for development. Its like that absurd number plate we used to see on Uncle Mo's car when he was CEO, RFL1 (I think it was?). You hold an asset because it provides value to the business, not because (e.g.) it satisfies the directors' egos, or because it is an "investment" when you do not have loads of free funds.

You would sell the site, bank the development potential profit, buy or (more likely) lease a new HQ somewhere where the land cost a lot less, and use the funds released to further the core activities of your business.  i would suggest?

ps. With Tongs ya Bas' clarification (I thought the whole site was leased, but now I recall what TYB says is the case), if you owned the land and it had development value you would surely defo sell it? If you owned the building, you would presumably examine whether the building was fit and suitable for present purpose - especially if you wanted to build other facilities round it - and if not then, in accordance with ny earlier post, sell the asset and acquire a suitable replacement?

But is it thier only asset? It would be like selling the family silver. What do they have once they got rid of a high value property in a growing economy of Leeds and investing in an area that has seen property value drop 50% in 10 years.

But it all depends on what the RFL want from its HQ. If they want pitches and a training HQ then buying land in North Leeds would be very high.

[Adeybull]

11 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

But is it thier only asset? It would be like selling the family silver. What do they have once they got rid of a high value property in a growing economy of Leeds and investing in an area that has seen property value drop 50% in 10 years.

But it all depends on what the RFL want from its HQ. If they want pitches and a training HQ then buying land in North Leeds would be very high.

Plenty of other assets.  But one in particular stands out: a very large, if run-down, stadium for which they paid £1.25m for a 150-year lease (tantamount to conditional freehold).  But which is believed to be worth very much more, if the lease was surrendered and the (brownfield) site freed up for development.  Maybe if someone offered them a win-win deal to surrender the lease and book a big profit, they might be interested...?

Incientally, commercial property close to the motorway, in South Bradford or elsewhere, remains a strong investment.  And comparatively few organisations these days, outside of family businesses, own their properties.  They usually determine that the capital can be much more gainfully employed elsewhere in the business, where the ROCE is higher.

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Adeybull said:

Without a doubt, Leeds would look much more attractive now by comparison than it did back then. To a large extent, IMO. because it has had the Lion's share of the new investment in the county.

In 1985, they shut the Wortley Curve, which meant Bradford now had no direct rail link to London without trains going into Leeds station first then reversing out.  Shortly afterwards, they decided to build the new NHS HQ at Quarry Hill. They completed the ends of the M1 (as was) and M621 to very close to Leeds city centre, but never ever completed the M606 down to close to Bradford City Centre.  So getting into the city centre from the end of the M606 remains a pain. They did a lot of work at the M62/M1 junction and the M62/M621 junction, but have never proceeded with the direct link to Bradford from the M62 westbound at Chain Bar, missing out the roundabout. They spent a load of money upgrading most of Leed's outer ring road - albeit some stretches remain a nightmare.  Most of Bradford's outer ring road remains a jumbled collection of stupidly-congested side roads someone joined up and called a ring road. There is no easy or quick way round Bradford to get to the Aire Valley and beyond.  None of these things help Bradford's case in attracting inward investment. 

It is not just Bradford, of course. Trying to drive round or commute anywhere in most of the rest of West Yorkshire is usually a nightmare. Keighley to Huddersfield, anyone? And folk around Huddersfield know all about the nightmare of Cooper Bridge, on the main route into the town from the M62 westbound.

Never mind, though.  We have the wonderful cycling Superhighway between Leeds and Bradford, built at major cost and with major disruption. Great for getting people fit by having to power themselves up the big hills between the two cities, in all weathers, briefcase strapped to your back, to then arrive at the office all sweaty and wet and blown about. Maybe that is why it always looks so busy, and never a white elephant to be seen...

I think the situation now is that, because of all the massive investment in Leeds in recent years, it is bound to be the most attrractive location to those who make the location decisions.  Especially to those who regularly travel to London. So Leeds just gets richer and the rest of the county just gets poorer - Catch 22.

A couldn't have written a better summary. The lack of investment in infrastructure (road and rail) in the conurbations of West Yorkshire (and South to some extent) is disgraceful. And you're right in saying Leeds has had the lions share and been prioritised. I think a Yorkshire wide mayor could potentially assist in attracting greater share of investment but we'll always have some conflict

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Adeybull said:

Why, out of interest, would a site north-east of Leeds and well out in the country be a better location for an RFL HQ than a site just off the motorway in West Yorkshire, prettty well centrally-situated for most of the RL heartland?  Or for that matter, a site just off the M62 just over the Hill?

I don't necessarily think it would but given they are looking at options, I threw it in to the debate. I think it would be great for training and pitches for national and junior matches and events but perhaps less so for office staff.

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Thorp Arch will probably be sold for housing.

I wouldnt have a problem with the RFL moving to Bradford, its mostly back office functions so im not sure it is all that important where they are. There will still be the media city presence. I do however think the rumoured proposals leave far too much of a conflict of interest.

Ive said before the current administration at Elland Road will be redeveloping the stadium and the area and that is where we should be trying to get in.

The redevelopments around Elland Road is something we can contribute to because what we need is basically office space, the occasional use of a top class training facility would be a wonderful bonus. The land there is ripe of redevelopment, is just outside the city centre and would be ideal.

Id also like the RFL to be investigating a contribution towards the redevelopment of Elland Road stadium in exchange for its use. Any stadium the RFL could afford to build would be too small for our needs, any stadium large enough for our needs that we owned, wouldnt be used enough. a Joint Venture at Elland Road would give us a 40k (almost certainly eventually more) stadium we could use say 10 times a year without the huge costs of building and maintaining one.

I would imagine Thorp Arch would be in greenbelt so unable to be sold for housing, leaving the owners with a predicament.

The development around Elland Road is certainly another potential option for the RFL to look at. I'm not convinced the football club are looking for partners though, although the council could force them to accommodate as part of any deal

[Adeybull]

13 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

 The lack of investment in infrastructure (road and rail) in the conurbations of West Yorkshire (and South to some extent) is disgraceful. And you're right in saying Leeds has had the lions share and been prioritised. I think a Yorkshire wide mayor could potentially assist in attracting greater share of investment but we'll always have some conflict

Agree. You would hope a pan-Yorkshire mayor would consider the wider county as a whole, but I'm not sure the various councils will ever agree on anyone with such powers?  Albeit I'm not sure those powers are that wide regarding infractructure?  Seems more of a poisoned chalice to me, with lots of responsibilities for things the public get mad at? 

But of course, we have the "Northern Powerhouse"? Which to me seems a euphemism for a high speed rail link between leeds and Manchester city centres?  In other words, benefiting the very same mandarins and senior business folk who make the decisions to locate their organisations in the two city centres?  Madness for the rest of us?  Surely any such investment would be far better spent in upgrading capacity and speed and stations and station car parking on the existing rail lines? And reopening some more where possible? 

And on building some decent roads, such as M62 to Huddersfield; Ainley Top or Brighouse to Keighley, with a lovely north-south Halifax bypass; Staygate into Bradford; along the rest of the Aire Valley and through to Leeds; any of Bradford's side-street of a "Ring Road", especially Dudley Hill to Thornbury and beyond to the AIre Valley and the joke round the west from Mayo Avenue; Dawson's Corner to Horsforth...And any number of other horrid stretches around the county and over the Hill around the north of Manchester?

But no, seems we have to have glamour, prestige projects that look good for national politicians but seem to me unlikely to help much with turning a transport sheethouse into a powerhouse?

 

[GeordieSaint]

4 hours ago, Mark S said:

Manchester is the place to be, it's becoming the capitol of the north.

So Andy Burnham is King of the North? 

[Adeybull]

The thing is, whatever may or may not be the most appropriate site, the fact of the matter is that the RFL effectively own - conditionally - a very large potential development site pretty central to the RFL M62 corridor heartland.  A site believed to be worth far more, potentially, than the amount they paid for it. Whether this acquisition was or was not a pure coincidence, only those close to the original deal will know.  But Rimmer's kite-flying seems either setting the scene for drip-feeding out what is indeed intended, or perhaps to be effectively inviting better offers or putting pressure on the other parties to improve theirs?

Should it be other offers, one would assume the RFL would quickly seek to dispose of their Odsal "investment"?  And their seeming ongoing interest in the Bulls, and more importantly who owned them, would suddenly evaporate?

[Celt]

4 hours ago, southstand loiner said:

that's why you sell the property to maximise your return . you then lease a property with a far less upfront costing than buying one thus you have a surplus to invest in the game . 

Absolutely. The last thing the sport of Rugby League needs, is physical assets. 

I am amazed that the rfu keeps Twickenham for example...what a millstone round it's neck that place must be.  

Nope - much better to keep renting. When the fee paid to ManUtd for the grand final ceases to be worthwhile for them, we can simply move the Grand Final to Ewood Park, or the Reebok Stadium, or maybe Tranmere? 

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Adeybull said:

For access from London, maybe.

For access from where most of the current staff work - hardly?

Red Hall isn’t so good to get to at all, 1st and last thing.  Certainly good for the Harrogate etc.

Having said that Odsal more central, and after spending a lifetime crossing the M62,  I don’t think it’s any better since the roadworks have finished.  Quite feasible to cross from Rothwell to Ainkey Top in 3rd gear.

[Mattrhino]

3 hours ago, Celt said:

Absolutely. The last thing the sport of Rugby League needs, is physical assets. 

I am amazed that the rfu keeps Twickenham for example...what a millstone round it's neck that place must be.  

Nope - much better to keep renting. When the fee paid to ManUtd for the grand final ceases to be worthwhile for them, we can simply move the Grand Final to Ewood Park, or the Reebok Stadium, or maybe Tranmere? 

Yeah Twickenham would sell for a fortune, then they could up sticks to Bradford and get a dirt cheap lease.

[Adeybull]

13 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

Yeah Twickenham would sell for a fortune, then they could up sticks to Bradford and get a dirt cheap lease.

Come on now...that is taking it a bit far! 

I know some on here appear to hate Bradford, but seeking to inflict that lot on the city is far worse than any of Bradford's perceived crimes could ever merit...?

[Damien]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Id also like the RFL to be investigating a contribution towards the redevelopment of Elland Road stadium in exchange for its use. Any stadium the RFL could afford to build would be too small for our needs, any stadium large enough for our needs that we owned, wouldnt be used enough. a Joint Venture at Elland Road would give us a 40k (almost certainly eventually more) stadium we could use say 10 times a year without the huge costs of building and maintaining one.

I've said before something along these line. For me a national RL stadium in Leeds, with Leeds United as tenants or part owners, is the only viable way for RL to ever have its own stadium of any real size.

[southstand loiner]

11 hours ago, Adeybull said:

Indeed. The same story whenever activities from several locations are “rationalised” onto a single site. You are right, it is just the same point. You only get new jobs overall where there is business or activity growth. And you lose jobs in the areas where sites are closed. I suspect the new M&S site on the Prologis business park owes much to it being one of the few sites in Yorkshire adjacent to the motorways able to take such a huge building?

My point though was to counter the statements about the place being a dump. 

well as you may guess I am a  Leeds resident  and I can assure you it depends in both cities as to what part of them you mean when people say dump or affluent  both Bradford and Leeds have both as does every city in Britain 

[Adeybull]

1 hour ago, southstand loiner said:

well as you may guess I am a  Leeds resident  and I can assure you it depends in both cities as to what part of them you mean when people say dump or affluent  both Bradford and Leeds have both as does every city in Britain 

Indeed so.  The problem was that several people were saying that any new RFL should not be in Bradford, because Bradford is a dump (or other derogatory descriptions). Several by contrast were saying it should instead be in Leeds, because Leeds is not a dump.

[Konkrete]

Interesting debate. On one side we have a potential for our governing body to have a power base for the sport with its own stadium in a fantastic location - like Twickers for RU or Wembley for soccer or ANZ for the NRL. And on the other side we have those shouting out for the game to be run from an office building in a city centre like Leeds or Manc.  The mind boggles. 

[Odsal Outlaw]

If the RFL move to Odsal/Richard Dunn as part of a complete redevelopment then that is surely great for the Bulls and more importantly the whole sport. We would just need to ensure the investment is in place ... a joint venture between RFL, Council and the Bulls backed by a wealthy owner? Anyone remember the rumour earlier this year that Chalmers was merely a front for Koukash for 12 months while he got rid of Salford ...

[southstand loiner]

9 hours ago, Adeybull said:

Indeed so.  The problem was that several people were saying that any new RFL should not be in Bradford, because Bradford is a dump (or other derogatory descriptions). Several by contrast were saying it should instead be in Leeds, because Leeds is not a dump.

not sure if your old enough to remember when the rfl headquarters were on chapletown road  because that could have changed a few peoples minds .  in any case I always think its the people that make a place not what it looks like . I mean ilkley is a lovely looking town but would I want to live there not likely there to far up there own ***** for me .

 

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

32 minutes ago, southstand loiner said:

not sure if your old enough to remember when the rfl headquarters were on chapletown road  because that could have changed a few peoples minds .  in any case I always think its the people that make a place not what it looks like . I mean ilkley is a lovely looking town but would I want to live there not likely there to far up there own ***** for me .

 

Yes, that really was a dodgy part of the world! It was said that you could get a woman, a gun, a fix and a Cup Final ticket standing in the same queue

[Adeybull]

1 hour ago, southstand loiner said:

not sure if your old enough to remember when the rfl headquarters were on chapletown road  because that could have changed a few peoples minds .  in any case I always think its the people that make a place not what it looks like . I mean ilkley is a lovely looking town but would I want to live there not likely there to far up there own ***** for me .

 

Sadly, indeed I am!  When I first came to Leeds, as a student in the later 1970s, I lived first for a few weeks up Beeston Hill. Then I shared a flat just after where Chapeltown Road becomes Harrogate Road, and used to ride into town on my motorbike every day past the old off-white building with the rubbish "RL" logo.  Even then, I often wondered what actually went on in there... So yes, I very much remember the days when much of Leeds was pretty grim, and the city centre quite bleak.  And to venture down Mabgate was reckless indeed... And my rellies up here telling me to go shopping in Bradford, cos it was far far better (as indeed it was).

Fast forward, and only a very few years ago visitors to Bradford will recall it as having the only city centre with a puddle in the middle and a hole in the heart.  Come now, and where they were you now see the quite decent centenary square and the pool in City Park, and the new Westfield Broadway shopping mall, and lots of new restaurants, and that it has very clearly turned the corner. 

Point being, places change - and often for the better, not just for the worse - as Leeds and now Bradford demonstrate.  And of course places like Salford, over t'Hill.  Places may change, but prejudices often fail to.  Had I not returned to Leeds in the mid-1980s, after a few years overseas, my memories - and prejudices - of Leeds would be based on the down-at-heel, often bleak place I remembered.  Doubtless the same applies with people for other towns and cities.

Places may change, but yes it is the people that make a place.  Same as it is (for me) the people that make RL. And I agree - just like with individuals, external appearance is no real guide to what lies within. Indeed, as you mention Ilkley, I was told - not long ago at all, and by a guy very well placed to know - that there will be a lot of kids there disappointed to learn how little they will actually inherit, once the debts were all paid off!

OK...as you were...

[Mattrhino]

2 hours ago, Adeybull said:

Sadly, indeed I am!  When I first came to Leeds, as a student in the later 1970s, I lived first for a few weeks up Beeston Hill. Then I shared a flat just after where Chapeltown Road becomes Harrogate Road, and used to ride into town on my motorbike every day past the old off-white building with the rubbish "RL" logo.  Even then, I often wondered what actually went on in there... So yes, I very much remember the days when much of Leeds was pretty grim, and the city centre quite bleak.  And to venture down Mabgate was reckless indeed... And my rellies up here telling me to go shopping in Bradford, cos it was far far better (as indeed it was).

Fast forward, and only a very few years ago visitors to Bradford will recall it as having the only city centre with a puddle in the middle and a hole in the heart.  Come now, and where they were you now see the quite decent centenary square and the pool in City Park, and the new Westfield Broadway shopping mall, and lots of new restaurants, and that it has very clearly turned the corner. 

Point being, places change - and often for the better, not just for the worse - as Leeds and now Bradford demonstrate.  And of course places like Salford, over t'Hill.  Places may change, but prejudices often fail to.  Had I not returned to Leeds in the mid-1980s, after a few years overseas, my memories - and prejudices - of Leeds would be based on the down-at-heel, often bleak place I remembered.  Doubtless the same applies with people for other towns and cities.

Places may change, but yes it is the people that make a place.  Same as it is (for me) the people that make RL. And I agree - just like with individuals, external appearance is no real guide to what lies within. Indeed, as you mention Ilkley, I was told - not long ago at all, and by a guy very well placed to know - that there will be a lot of kids there disappointed to learn how little they will actually inherit, once the debts were all paid off!

OK...as you were...

It is all very well talking about gentrification of the city square and putting a few pizza express restaurants around a new shopping mall, but what is it like for business, attracting talent, transport links, hotels etc..

 

[Adeybull]

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

It is all very well talking about gentrification of the city square and putting a few pizza express restaurants around a new shopping mall, but what is it like for business, attracting talent, transport links, hotels etc..

 

That is a totally separate point to the one I was making.

We have already established, I believe, that Bradford has been pretty well stuffed commercially by the massive investments in and development of Leeds, and of how basically all roads now lead to Leeds. Where the decision-makers want to be.  This was a point about perceptions of places being "dumps".

[Allora]

BLACKPOOL

Buy Uncle Toms Cabin and have the headquarters there.

It would not cost much.

[Mattrhino]

32 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

That is a totally separate point to the one I was making.

We have already established, I believe, that Bradford has been pretty well stuffed commercially by the massive investments in and development of Leeds, and of how basically all roads now lead to Leeds. Where the decision-makers want to be.  This was a point about perceptions of places being "dumps".

Therr are some fantastic old buildings in Bradford some that Leeds could only dream of having. As alot of the development in Leeds during the 70's seemed to have had a competition on who could make the ugliest concrete block possible.