England team For France Match

[graveyard johnny]

9 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

... “I’m a creep, I’m a weirdo”...?

sorry to hear that- no surprises there though

[telliner]

57 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

Which of our positional groups do you think are most competitive with the Australians, our forwards or our backs? I'd say our forwards are more competitive, and most people on this forum probably would. If that is the case, do you not think it would be a bit stupid to try and base a gameplan around our least competitive positions?

Do you not think that the issue is fans are massively swayed by form rather than aiming to pick a team capable of playing at the requisite standard? I remember last year the hilarity of people telling us that Hall was an awful player because he happened to finish in a team that finished in the bottom 4. Do you not think fans are also more likely to place too much emphasis on the glamorous stuff? People clamouring for Eden to be picked over Hall this year may have considered the tries Eden scored on a dominant Castleford left wing, but do you think they put sufficient emphasis on their relative abilities on contesting high kicks, or their ability to carry the ball well on exit sets? 

Australians also regularly pick players out of position, do you not think the issue is that a lot of fans are very rigid in their thinking rather than appreciating that a lot of positions have transferable skills? If England named a backline of 4 (arguably 5) fullbacks, this forum would absolutely slate them for playing players out of position, yet Australia won the 2013 RLWC with that backline. 

Are you arguing that Wayne Bennett coached teams don't do grubber kicks or set plays? 

Hardly,I'm confident Wayne Bennet has more than enough nouse to factor in tactical kicking and set plays(its a prerequisite of League to unlock defences).Our kicking is hardIy top drawer and no grubber kicks are all but extinct.How many times on set completion has the kicker lacked good position and kicked a desperate ball ?.think I omitted the word 'BRITISH'.

Overall Im saying outside the front row battering ram style we arent overflowing with a variety of versatility and attacking options.

[Southerner]

2 hours ago, Desert Skipper said:

Funny thing is, none of the other players, bar Hall and McGilvray have stepped up against Aus or NZ either.   I would be sceptical about playing them in the next match had we performed excellently in the pivot positions in the previous two matches.   We didn’t, so I’ve got no issue in giving some other pivot players the chance to prove they offer more in attack.   Let’s see.

Personally think they did step up. All the other players apart from maybe Gale and one or two of the others played well. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

What’s a natural stand off anyway these days?

Teams just go with a half back on the right and a half back on the left, it’s not really first and second receiver like in the past

Precisely. I'm convinced that people still think there is a set first receiver and second receiver. Halves split and do the same job either side of the field. Sure one might be more dominant and be the primary kicker but they should have the same skill set. Folk shouldn't confuse playing style/strengths with positional requirements. The two best halves should be picked. I think they are Widdop and Gale. Gale probably just isnt getting enough ball at the moment and is making do with a sub standard full back and centre. He also looks better playing in an expansive Cas team. If Hardaker and Shenton were in the team he and that left edge would look much more accomplished.

[scrumhalf]

neutral ref for aussie v leb james child wots that all about

[Bostik Bailey]

4 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

I hope not.

IMO he has achieved less than Powell as ridiculous as that sounds. Ultimately clubs are in the business of collecting silverware but not all coaches have equal opportunities to do so which makes assessing individuals harder.

Tony Smith improved Leeds and then went on to improve Warrington and over the years he won plenty.

Powell improved the players at Featherstone and did the same at the Tigers. Hardaker aside, until Powell coached the Cas team they had no stand out players and now they have plenty. Powell has taken mediocre players and improved them substantially.

It is not obvious to me that Brian McDermott has improved the Leeds players even though he has won plenty with them. Time will tell if he reproduces a winning team at his next appointment or his success continues for another 5 or 6 years when the team will be considered his.

I honestly believe the biggest indicator of a coach’s ability is if success is replicated from one post to the next.

I would love to see Powell get his hands our best players and see if he can get  them to kick on. Hardaker won MOS prior to Castleford and most suggest Powell improved him further again.

Whilst I agree with you about improving players, do you think Powel would be given the time with the England players to achieve this. The situation is that the current set up just throws players together and doesn't care for their well being etc.

 

Oh and by the way for everyone bigging Bennet up as a coaching genius, that last game was like watching Saints under Cunningham. 

[scrumhalf]

4 in  mcmeekin roby percival taylor  5 out  hall hodgeson watkins elliot heighington what am i missing

[Dunbar]

36 minutes ago, scrumhalf said:

4 in  mcmeekin roby percival taylor  5 out  hall hodgeson watkins elliot heighington what am i missing

Kevin Brown

[HKR AWAY DAYS]

I am staying on St James Street and after dumping my bag to find a pub, I was happy to see a massive banner hanging above the road advertising the game.

I had 2 pints and went back past it. The local council workers were taking it down at 10pm last night. Annoying...

[RayCee]

2 hours ago, scrumhalf said:

neutral ref for aussie v leb james child wots that all about

It's quite simple once you know the system. He is being tested to see if he understands that all 50/50 must go Australia's way and that only one team can look good in this match. If he passes the test, he can expect bigger games later in the tournament. 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

Which of our positional groups do you think are most competitive with the Australians, our forwards or our backs? I'd say our forwards are more competitive, and most people on this forum probably would. If that is the case, do you not think it would be a bit stupid to try and base a gameplan around our least competitive positions?

Do you not think that the issue is fans are massively swayed by form rather than aiming to pick a team capable of playing at the requisite standard? I remember last year the hilarity of people telling us that Hall was an awful player because he happened to finish in a team that finished in the bottom 4. Do you not think fans are also more likely to place too much emphasis on the glamorous stuff? People clamouring for Eden to be picked over Hall this year may have considered the tries Eden scored on a dominant Castleford left wing, but do you think they put sufficient emphasis on their relative abilities on contesting high kicks, or their ability to carry the ball well on exit sets? 

Australians also regularly pick players out of position, do you not think the issue is that a lot of fans are very rigid in their thinking rather than appreciating that a lot of positions have transferable skills? If England named a backline of 4 (arguably 5) fullbacks, this forum would absolutely slate them for playing players out of position, yet Australia won the 2013 RLWC with that backline. 

Are you arguing that Wayne Bennett coached teams don't do grubber kicks or set plays? 

That is all very well Saint but realistically you are championing the very same selection process criteria that has brought us zilch for a very long time.

i.e. never mind that such and such has been in top form all season, we will pick whatshisname instead he will be steadier in that position, sound familiar?

If I am missing something where your - and the international coaches and selectors previous and present - methods have prooved successful please point me in the right direction, otherwise why not ditch that approach or is a better word custom and try something else.

[Just Browny]

On 07/11/2017 at 1:03 PM, Just Browny said:

Both Ratchford and Brown will be fine this weekend, neither deserves to be slated for being selected to play for their country and accepting the honour.

Turned out both Ratchford and Brown were fine.

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Turned out both Ratchford and Brown were fine.

Id go as far as say Brown has been England's best half on show so far this tournament.

Bennett selected him last year and in mid-season, i wonder if he's done enough to force himself in at starter 6.

[Spidey]

35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Id go as far as say Brown has been England's best half on show so far this tournament.

Bennett selected him last year and in mid-season, i wonder if he's done enough to force himself in at starter 6.

If he’s got the players around him, he’ll shine like he did today

[M j M]

On 07/11/2017 at 5:28 PM, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

I hope not.

IMO he has achieved less than Powell as ridiculous as that sounds. Ultimately clubs are in the business of collecting silverware but not all coaches have equal opportunities to do so which makes assessing individuals harder.

Tony Smith improved Leeds and then went on to improve Warrington and over the years he won plenty.

Powell improved the players at Featherstone and did the same at the Tigers. Hardaker aside, until Powell coached the Cas team they had no stand out players and now they have plenty. Powell has taken mediocre players and improved them substantially.

It is not obvious to me that Brian McDermott has improved the Leeds players even though he has won plenty with them. Time will tell if he reproduces a winning team at his next appointment or his success continues for another 5 or 6 years when the team will be considered his.

 

The coach of an international team isn't there to "improve" players. They don't have the hands-on time with them. So it is often better to be an inspirational coach with solid tactics (e.g. Brian McClennan) than the sort of coach who will embed things in players over the long run and can be tactically brilliant but isn't necessarily Mr Charisma (e.g. Tony Smith). The contrasting fortunes of those two coaches at international level might be instructive.

Now if you are looking at Leeds, the two above-named arrived at Headingley at perfect times - Smith, and Powell before him, had improved a very good group of core players; McClennan, as with NZ, inspired them to great things. But, over time, it became clear that Bluey wasn't paying enough attention to developmental aspects and he was very suddenly "disappeared" in favour of a coach, in McDermott, who lies somewhere between the two.

McDermott is a prickly but actually pretty fascinating character - by far the most interesting and probably the most demanding of the SL coaches.

 

[nadera78]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

The coach of an international team isn't there to "improve" players. They don't have the hands-on time with them. So it is often better to be an inspirational coach with solid tactics (e.g. Brian McClennan) than the sort of coach who will embed things in players over the long run and can be tactically brilliant but isn't necessarily Mr Charisma (e.g. Tony Smith). The contrasting fortunes of those two coaches at international level might be instructive.

Now if you are looking at Leeds, the two above-named arrived at Headingley at perfect times - Smith, and Powell before him, had improved a very good group of core players; McClennan, as with NZ, inspired them to great things. But, over time, it became clear that Bluey wasn't paying enough attention to developmental aspects and he was very suddenly "disappeared" in favour of a coach, in McDermott, who lies somewhere between the two.

McDermott is a prickly but actually pretty fascinating character - by far the most interesting and probably the most demanding of the SL coaches.

 

I've got a huge amount of time for McDermott, going back to his spell at London. He set up and organised coaching seminars for community and junior team coaches that became regular events. He recognised that, not only did we need to bring through talented youngsters who the pro club could then mould further, but also improve the standard of the community game for recreational players. Firstly so that they could get more out of playing RL, but also because it's likely that their kids would be active sportsmen too, and RL needs to make first call on them if we're going to get anywhere. Genuinely good guy, and sees the bigger picture. Just look at the way he's treated the USA job.