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Leeds WCC - disappointing if this doesn’t come off.


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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But we cant just keep dismissing everything as inconvenient.

Do we not like watching RL or something?

 

Read my post above Dave.

You can not make Fans and Clubs want to embrace something if they are not interested can you?

The WCC gets little or no coverage down under, it never has whether the Oz teams win or lose.

The Title best Club team in the World sticks in many Aussie throats when it played by totally different squads in some cases.

At a time of year when the Australian Clubs have not geared up or have played a game in anger, on the other side of the World and to be honest for many Aussies against a Club they know little about or have feelings about win or lose.

Sounds tough but its the way it is.

This concept is viewed from totally different eyes between the sets of Fans.

Leeds beat the Storm it is a massive taking point for English fans and the Club and gives a lot of satisfaction as best team... blah blah.

Storm beat Leeds........hardly gets a mention, Storm lose to Leeds...... same reaction.

Its been a poorly thought out concept from day dot and has only got worse over the years.

 

 

 

Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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4 minutes ago, Allora said:

Read my post below Dave.

You can not make Fans and Clubs want to embrace something if they are not interested can you?

The WCC gets little or no coverage down under, it never has whether the Oz teams win or lose.

The Title best Club team in the World sticks in many Aussie throats when it played by totally different squads in some cases.

At a time of year when the Australian Clubs have not geared up or have played a game in anger, on the other side of the World and to be honest for many Aussies against a Club they know little about or have feelings about win or lose.

Sounds tough but its the way it is.

This concept is viewed from totally different eyes between the sets of Fans.

Leeds beat the Storm it is a massive taking point for English fans and the Club and gives a lot of satisfaction as best team... blah blah.

Storm beat Leeds........hardly gets a mention, Storm lose to Leeds...... same reaction.

Its been a poorly thought out concept from day dot and has only got worse over the years.

Genuine question. How did the Roosters (who weekly in the NRL could fit all of their fans in a single bay) manage to draw over 32k for the 2014 WCC? How come if there is no interest? That is higher than nearly every NRL finals crowd this year.

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Just now, Scubby said:

Then you publicly chastise them and tell them they are insular and the game is suffering. You do not wait to see who wins the NRL GF and go out with the begging bowl in early November each year. If the concept is stalled you tell people who is responsible and why. 

It is either all or nothing. The Aussies have shown that they do want to play the WCC, it is the NRL wanting ultimate flexibility each year. If the agreement was in place with the NRL and the UK then the clubs are obliged to compete and they know at the start of each season what happens if they qualify. They are then fined heavily if they default.

The clubs in the NRL have way too much power. It is like Shane Richardson at Souths wanting to have a meeting with the RLIF. Go fish and talk to your governing body. 

So you make Clubs sign up an drag their ###### to a game they are not interested in?

The Clubs are the NRL.

They generate the Media money and Sponsorship's and pay the massive player wages and take the risks of injuries and poor starts to a Season.

Maybe its time to give the WCC the flick, its like having a little brother bleating away in the background that you have to play their game with their rules when they want it and how they want it.

It rarely ends well.

 

 

Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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Just now, Scubby said:

Genuine question. How did the Roosters (who weekly in the NRL could fit all of their fans in a single bay) manage to draw over 32k for the 2014 WCC? How come if there is no interest? That is higher than nearly every NRL finals crowd this year.

Well there is a case of playing it down under and marketed well and it was Wigan, the better know team from England.

If it was Castleford  V Cronulla it would have been a different outcome.

How many times has it been played in Australia 2-3?

 

 

Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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14 minutes ago, Allora said:

So you make Clubs sign up an drag their ###### to a game they are not interested in?

The Clubs are the NRL.

They generate the Media money and Sponsorship's and pay the massive player wages and take the risks of injuries and poor starts to a Season.

Maybe its time to give the WCC the flick, its like having a little brother bleating away in the background that you have to play their game with their rules when they want it and how they want it.

It rarely ends well.

Despite your dismissive tone I actually agree with you in many respects.

The thing that isn't there is money! Full stop. It is up to the game to generate income for this concept. The RFL and SL clubs need to make a compelling case for the WCC and then nail a long term agreement. IMO it could be doing a magic style deal with a city in the UK. Somewhere like Newcastle, Liverpool, London, Edinburgh or Leeds. If you were braver you could court cash in a mid-point country like Hong Kong or Singapore (who are desperate for events). Even perhaps Perth.

You do a deal over a weekend to stage the whole thing at one event stadium over two days. Get the finances guaranteed and create a celebration of the game. I am convinced that a WCS in London over a weekend with 3v3 and 2v2 on the Saturday and 1v1 WCC on the Sunday would potentially draw massive crowds. The interest from the Australia public in London to watch the top NRL sides would be there. I was amazed at how London could suddenly get 5k new fans for a throwaway friendly with Manly in 2012. I also think done as an "event" it would also have tremendous appeal to the neutral.

We have no ambition and we are not prepared to back ourselves. In a way we make it very easy for NRL clubs to nob us off. The RFL and SL clubs have shown their sole focus is filling their own modest stadiums with the minimum effort. Cas wanting to stage the whole WCC at Wheldon Road if they got there highlights this completely. We get what we deserve more often than not.

Build it and they actually might want to come.

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13 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Despite your dismissive tone I actually agree with you in many respects.

The thing that isn't there is money! Full stop. It is up to the game to generate income for this concept. The RFL and SL clubs need to make a compelling case for the WCC and then nail a long term agreement. IMO it could be doing a magic style deal with a city in the UK. Somewhere like Newcastle, Liverpool, London, Edinburgh or Leeds. If you were braver you could court cash in a mid-point country like Hong Kong or Singapore (who are desperate for events). Even perhaps Perth.

You do a deal over a weekend to stage the whole thing at one event stadium over two days. Get the finances guaranteed and create a celebration of the game. I am convinced that a WCS in London over a weekend with 3v3 and 2v2 on the Saturday and 1v1 WCC on the Sunday would potentially draw massive crowds. The interest from the Australia public in London to watch the top NRL sides would be there. I was amazed at how London could suddenly get 5k new fans for a throwaway friendly with Manly in 2012. I also think done as an "event" it would also have tremendous appeal to the neutral.

We have no ambition and we are not prepared to back ourselves. In a way we make it very easy for NRL clubs to nob us off. The RFL and SL clubs have shown their sole focus is filling their own modest stadiums with the minimum effort. Cas wanting to stage the whole WCC at Wheldon Road if they got there highlights this completely. We get what we deserve more often than not.

Build it and they actually might want to come.

"Field of Dreams" ?

Scubby the crowds for the WCC in the UK are hardly massive, Wigan did ok last year.

Saints got about 12,500 three years ago against a team with several English connections.

It needs looking at and either overhauled or put in the Bin.

Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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There is actually a market for Australian sport in London. The AFL and cricket has shown this. If we actually had the balls to put on a WCS weekend in London then we may sell more neutral tickets than attended the WCC in 2017 and 2016 combined over a weekend. We simply have no vision and the SL clubs have shown they are happy to retract into tiny stadiums in the M62. That isn't going to tempt anyone from the NRL to fly 12k miles year in year out for a WCS.

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18 minutes ago, Allora said:

"Field of Dreams" ?

Scubby the crowds for the WCC in the UK are hardly massive, Wigan did ok last year.

Saints got about 12,500 three years ago against a team with several English connections.

It needs looking at and either overhauled or put in the Bin.

Saints sold out their 18k+ stadium for that game but I know what you mean. Rugby League in the UK is so parochial that many Wakefield fans would never go to Cas and many Saints fans would not go to Wigan. However, many more neutral fans may go to a weekend festival WCS at an event stadium. This gives them the chance to see 2 or 3 top Aussie clubs in the flesh and they don't have to soil themselves going to a rivals' turf. The neutral market for a WCS is never going to be fulfilled playing in modest club SL stadiums. What the hell is special about that to drive 50 or 100 miles?

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On 10/11/2017 at 8:39 PM, BenGilesRL said:

Let's ditch the Aussies once and for all, in every sense of international competition. Pretty sick of begging.

You come across as a whinging pom.

Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination.

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Wigan - Cronulla was a great event. 

I am not sure why there is so much negativity around this, as there is a game. World Cup year is a much more challenging off season than usual - the storm have produced loads of players involved in lots of countries, and if I were Leeds I would be delighted to test my team away to the best club side in Oz. 

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1 hour ago, Allora said:

Read my post above Dave.

You can not make Fans and Clubs want to embrace something if they are not interested can you?

The WCC gets little or no coverage down under, it never has whether the Oz teams win or lose.

The Title best Club team in the World sticks in many Aussie throats when it played by totally different squads in some cases.

At a time of year when the Australian Clubs have not geared up or have played a game in anger, on the other side of the World and to be honest for many Aussies against a Club they know little about or have feelings about win or lose.

Sounds tough but its the way it is.

This concept is viewed from totally different eyes between the sets of Fans.

Leeds beat the Storm it is a massive taking point for English fans and the Club and gives a lot of satisfaction as best team... blah blah.

Storm beat Leeds........hardly gets a mention, Storm lose to Leeds...... same reaction.

Its been a poorly thought out concept from day dot and has only got worse over the years.

 

 

 

I know where we are at the moment, but imho there have been genuine reasons to be optimistic about the potential for this, but as usual it involves some effort, something that the game as a whole struggles with.

In the UK we have seen this game peak at 39k. In Oz it peaked at 54k over 20 years ago, but even three years ago the game got over 31k - more than double their average that year.

We keep getting told there is little interest in the World Cup in Oz, but the viewing figures have been great - even though some of the scheduling and planning hasn;t led to that being converted into bums on seats.

The potential is there, if we want to realise it, we can.

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4 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Wigan - Cronulla was a great event. 

I am not sure why there is so much negativity around this, as there is a game. World Cup year is a much more challenging off season than usual - the storm have produced loads of players involved in lots of countries, and if I were Leeds I would be delighted to test my team away to the best club side in Oz. 

The negativity isn't around the Leeds game (apart from the scheduling meaning most of us won't be able to watch it live) - it is about the abandoning of the WCS.

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Despite this World Cup, i am really becoming disillusioned by RL. We really do get what we deserve.

Snap... I've been disillusioned with the administration of the sport in both hemispheres for a while now. I'd really like to sit them all down around a table, crack a few egos and give them all some strategic direction on the development of the whole sport; not just their own little empires. 

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55 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The negativity isn't around the Leeds game (apart from the scheduling meaning most of us won't be able to watch it live) - it is about the abandoning of the WCS.

I beg your pardon. In that case I wonder whether F.C. and Wigan are largely to blame for that next year, as we went off and organised our own tours even though it was likely one of us would be in any WCS. 

What I think we need is for the NRL owners, SL owners. RFL, RLIF and ARL (plus possibly the FRL, PNG, NZ and Pacific nation heads) to sit down and produce a proper protocol and heirarchy. The key communication lines are too long with the clubs feeding into the NRL hierarchy and RFL when they bring in the money, produce the players and arrange cross border games. We are small enough to be able to have a joint view on world development. I hope the RLIF/NRL Club meeting helps that.

We could pretty soon see USA, Serbia, Fiji and Italy fielding seminar pro pro teams in  SH or NH competitions. That would mean we would have 11 countries with teams in the NRL or RFL pyramids. At that point, the RLIF could work to ensure that these form the focus of broader development in those countries. Everything becomes inter connected - player development, international teams and tournaments. 

We have never been at a point like this before with global potential so close to being realised. If only we can reach a point at which all parts of the game come together and pull in the same direction. 

We can reach win win very easily on this - the New Zealand herald has an excellent article on the explosion of interest in tongans by Taumalolo (our very own Dally Messemger), in playing our game and playing for that nation.  That is great for the international game and great for the NRL. 

We - and especially the NRL - should think about his story very carefully. We nearly lost the man who has transformed this World Cup to NFL last year. If that terrifying prospect isn’t enough to focus minds on the need for joined up thinking nothing will... 

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12 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I beg your pardon. In that case I wonder whether F.C. and Wigan are largely to blame for that next year, as we went off and organised our own tours even though it was likely one of us would be in any WCS. 

What I think we need is for the NRL owners, SL owners. RFL, RLIF and ARL (plus possibly the FRL, PNG, NZ and Pacific nation heads) to sit down and produce a proper protocol and heirarchy. The key communication lines are too long with the clubs feeding into the NRL hierarchy and RFL when they bring in the money, produce the players and arrange cross border games. We are small enough to be able to have a joint view on world development. I hope the RLIF/NRL Club meeting helps that.

We could pretty soon see USA, Serbia, Fiji and Italy fielding seminar pro pro teams in  SH or NH competitions. That would mean we would have 11 countries with teams in the NRL or RFL pyramids. At that point, the RLIF could work to ensure that these form the focus of broader development in those countries. Everything becomes inter connected - player development, international teams and tournaments. 

We have never been at a point like this before with global potential so close to being realised. If only we can reach a point at which all parts of the game come together and pull in the same direction. 

We can reach win win very easily on this - the New Zealand herald has an excellent article on the explosion of interest in tongans by Taumalolo (our very own Dally Messemger), in playing our game and playing for that nation.  That is great for the international game and great for the NRL. 

We - and especially the NRL - should think about his story very carefully. We nearly lost the man who has transformed this World Cup to NFL last year. If that terrifying prospect isn’t enough to focus minds on the need for joined up thinking nothing will... 

I think the disillusionment is around a concept where SL clubs simply invite 3 NRL clubs to northern England in February to play in a series at modest club grounds before crowds that didn't even hit capacity at those modest grounds.

What did Brisbane do when they came over? Did they go to the Lake District? No, they went straight down to London for sight seeing. Sometimes we can;t see the market in front of us. It is obvious Leigh, Saints and Warrington fans in the main won't go a few miles down the road to watch Wigan and similarly Castleford and Wakefield fans will not go to Headingley to watch Leeds. That being the case we need to think bigger and more "event" minded. To do that takes a collaborative innovative approach.

Wigan and Hull sodding off to do their own thing just about sums up the frustration game wide.

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Before we jump the WCS train that doesn’t work to soon, it’s interesting to know that, from a spectators point of view, it does work and despite disingenuous claims that attendances are low:

Average WCS attendance in Aus (3games) - 37533. Average attendance NRL 2017 - 15704 including finals

Average WCS attendance in Eng (25) - 23792. Ave SL - 8568 not including CC.

Highest ever attendance Aus - QR2 Brisbane - 54220. Eng - Elland Road - 37028

There is interest.  We’ve run this 24 times and it can be improved upon.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Before we jump the WCS train that doesn’t work to soon, it’s interesting to know that, from a spectators point of view, it does work and despite disingenuous claims that attendances are low:

Average WCS attendance in Aus (3games) - 37533. Average attendance NRL 2017 - 15704 including finals

Average WCS attendance in Eng (25) - 23792. Ave SL - 8568 not including CC.

Highest ever attendance Aus - QR2 Brisbane - 54220. Eng - Elland Road - 37028

There is interest.  We’ve run this 24 times and it can be improved upon.

 

It does not feel like it.

I do not like playing games away from the heartlands where the average battler Fan can not afford to travel too and watch their Team.

But in this case I would make an exception and play in a Country in a reasonable timezone for both Leagues.

One of the reasons it has never caught on in Australia is the fact that when its played in England as it invariably is its on at some ungodly hour on a Monday morning where very few people are prepared to watch it, that is from the 15% or so that have pay TV with Foxtel and are able to watch it.

Sure you could record it but that is hardly the same when it comes to Sport.

It would be interesting to know how many Australians watch the game on TV besides Rabbits and three of his mate and their kids.

 

Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The complete inability of the two major leagues to commit to and create a proper WCC is the biggest failure in RL. It convinces me that without substantial change in outlook, structure and governance, in the very near future, Rugby League is in serious serious trouble.

The NRL is insular and inward looking. It has made no major expansion in years and is consumed with propping up failing businesses in a saturated heartland. Aussie fans want to push the work done in the Pac Islands, but these are relatively small and Isolated. Nobody really expects a PNG NRL side anytime soon, nor Fiji. They cant even get one in Perth or a 2nd NZ franchise. The Australian market should be the Asian market. It isnt even the full Australian market, its the Sydney and Brisbane market and it is struggling to keep that.

The RFL is even worse, its seen London fall to basically playing in a park, has sat back and seen Bradford pretty much disappear, it is seeing crowds fall and tv viewers fall, it forced through a system that is a commercial disaster with obvious downsides which it is likely to scrap after 3 seasons, but it has seemingly put everything on hold because it isnt sure where it is or where it is going. It has brought Toronto into its system whilst at the same time implementing a system completely at odds with the success of Toronto. We spent ages trying to convince the aussies to expand the WCC, when we managed to we contrived a silly series that engaged nobody and attacked it with all the ambition and vigor of a wet ham.

We have plenty to be optimistic about. In a lot of big areas we are probably in the best position we have been in for years, like we could be on the cusp of something brilliant, but we also dont look like we are close to being able to take advantage of it. We are too parochial, have too many people looking after their own fiefdom. We arent professional enough, not forward looking enough and dont have good enough people in the top positions. The WCC proves that. In the format at it is. It is a simple, easy, money maker that grabs attention. We can't even organise a single game between the best in the world without it descending in to farce.

Do you know what depressed me in the press release for this? These two quotes:

"Super League (Europe) Ltd and the NRL have worked closely with both clubs to ensure that the 2018 World Club Challenge takes place" - Roger Draper said. WTF - why should there be any doubt about a game that Gary Hetherington calls "the ultimate achievement for all Super League and NRL teams".

The second quote of "This match will kick-off Storm’s 2018 campaign, with the Melbourne Club confirming it will look to field its strongest line-up as it contests for another trophy." - oh thanks! That's awfully good of them.

Quotes like that just should not be forming part of a launch of the WCC.

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2 hours ago, Allora said:

It does not feel like it.

I do not like playing games away from the heartlands where the average battler Fan can not afford to travel too and watch their Team.

But in this case I would make an exception and play in a Country in a reasonable timezone for both Leagues.

One of the reasons it has never caught on in Australia is the fact that when its played in England as it invariably is its on at some ungodly hour on a Monday morning where very few people are prepared to watch it, that is from the 15% or so that have pay TV with Foxtel and are able to watch it.

Sure you could record it but that is hardly the same when it comes to Sport.

It would be interesting to know how many Australians watch the game on TV besides Rabbits and three of his mate and their kids.

 

I think I debated with you before the World Cup that scheduling is an issue. We are generally playing in two major markets - our scheduling should reflect that, and fixtures should be staged at times which are friendly for both of these TV markets.

As we have seen, despite plenty of criticism for the WC and lack of demand in Oz, the viewing figures have been excellent - there is interest for variety and interesting comps, but not necessarily enough for fans to be that bothered to get up at 4am on a Monday morning!

For key games that appeal to a UK market staged Down Under, they should be aiming for kick offs at 9-10am. 

For games that appeal to Aus markets, we should be looking to kick off games at 8pm on a Friday which is a 7am Sydney kick off on the Saturday, or similar.

You are never going to build a market for live sport at 4am. Even England's quarter final (which they had hand picked to be England's quarter, will kick off at 5am. That kicks off at 4pm in Oz. Had that been 2hrs later, you are starting to tap into the mainstream market of people waking up and switching the BBC on.

Until we have tried to make this a big deal, I don;t think we are in a position to write it off.

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4 hours ago, Allora said:

It does not feel like it.

I do not like playing games away from the heartlands where the average battler Fan can not afford to travel too and watch their Team.

But in this case I would make an exception and play in a Country in a reasonable timezone for both Leagues.

One of the reasons it has never caught on in Australia is the fact that when its played in England as it invariably is its on at some ungodly hour on a Monday morning where very few people are prepared to watch it, that is from the 15% or so that have pay TV with Foxtel and are able to watch it.

Sure you could record it but that is hardly the same when it comes to Sport.

It would be interesting to know how many Australians watch the game on TV besides Rabbits and three of his mate and their kids.

 

Sorry, we can’t run on whatever it feels like.  Just facts.

It would be interesting to know the viewing figures.  What would the figures be that are sensibly favourable?  Aussie gets boatloads of FTA tv RL, whereas we get virtually nothing.  FTA tv and adjusted kick off times to, say, 6, 7 or 8pm at night (Oz)  would certainly appeal in the UK and a 1-2pm uk would bring it into a more comfortable viewing zone in Oz.  

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