Ireland and France interested in staging world cup game

[Mattrhino]

Why take it to Paris,Lyon or any other city that couldn't care less about RL and snub the actual RL playing areas to give them a much needed boost.

[londonrlfan]

4 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

Why not give games to the only other northern hemisphere heartland of the game? I'm all for optimism but there is no chance a France v TBC is going to get anywhere near 30k in the UK. 17k-20k in Avignon is more than acceptable 

Union managed to get 35k for Italy v Canada in a RL area. Why not try to promote the sport and show some ambition? 

[londonrlfan]

1 minute ago, Mattrhino said:

Why take it to Paris,Lyon or any other city that couldn't care less about RL and snub the actual RL playing areas to give them a much needed boost.

Because that brings in more coverage and sponsors. The only way RL will grow in France is by promoting it more in the capital and biggest city. Playing it in a small village in front of the usual suspects isn't going to achieve anything. 

[Mattrhino]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

If you set a target of 1m spectators then you cannot give away games out of goodwill. If the French want a couple of games then they need to create a bid that will attract the crowds needed to achieve the aims. It that is guaranteeing 45-50k fans over two games then that is fine. If it is just another regurgitation of 2013 then they miss out IMO. I love France and French RL but we have to get serious over this one.

RL misses probably 90% of its targets. The best chance of this getting a good crowd is in the South of France. Put it in Paris and give away tickets maybe you get a few more spectators but it doesn't make much for the RLIF

[Scubby]

Just now, Mattrhino said:

RL misses probably 90% of its targets. The best chance of this getting a good crowd is in the South of France. Put it in Paris and give away tickets maybe you get a few more spectators but it doesn't make much for the RLIF

Where did I say Paris? Toulouse has a 34k capacity municipal stadium as does Montpellier and others in the region at 20k+. If you ###### about in 10-12k small town stadiums you will get what you deserve.

[Mattrhino]

4 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

Because that brings in more coverage and sponsors. The only way RL will grow in France is by promoting it more in the capital and biggest city. Playing it in a small village in front of the usual suspects isn't going to achieve anything. 

I agree with that assessment when it comes to the UK, that is why I am always for games to be held in London along side in the heartlands. But the game in the South of France is struggling and it is the only place in the northern hemisphere where our game is played en masse and needs support. A game in Paris does nothing.

[londonrlfan]

9 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

I agree with that assessment when it comes to the UK, that is why I am always for games to be held in London along side in the heartlands. But the game in the South of France is struggling and it is the only place in the northern hemisphere where our game is played en masse and needs support. A game in Paris does nothing.

It's struggling because it's small time and there aren't enough commercial opportunities in the sport. That's why you need to involve the larger cities rather than sticking to the same small area. 

[redjonn]

The winning bid was not a joint country bid. For me any nation that wants to have games should have to commit to providing certain minimum amount of funds to the winning world cup bidding entity. 

I assume part of winning the bid was committing a minimum guaranteed return to the international body. 

[Mattrhino]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Where did I say Paris? Toulouse has a 34k capacity municipal stadium as does Montpellier and others in the region at 20k+. If you ###### about in 10-12k small town stadiums you will get what you deserve.

Yeah sorry it was londonrl that suggested Paris. I agree play it in Tolouse or Montpellier if possible. But I don't agree with putting unreasonable targets for France to meet because of IMO a bit of a misguided target of 1 million spectators. 

I agree we can do better than 2013. But France v Lebanon for example is not going to get anywhere near 30k in the UK with another 30 games going on within a 100 miles radius. Best we can hope for us 15-20k within the UK imo, so why not give it to France and support the game there.

[Mattrhino]

4 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

It's struggling because it's small time and there aren't enough commercial opportunities in the sport. That's why you need to involve the larger cities rather than sticking to the same small area. 

With the right funds and a decent plan then yes introducing the game to the rest of France is a good idea, but just plonking a game there because it looks good doesn't help anybody.

If we think RL has a small footprint in other regions of the UK outside of the heartlands. It pales in significance to the situation in France. We need a build the French game in the heartlands before we get grand expansion plans.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Mattrhino said:

Yeah sorry it was londonrl that suggested Paris. I agree play it in Tolouse or Montpellier if possible. But I don't agree with putting unreasonable targets for France to meet because of IMO a bit of a misguided target of 1 million spectators. 

I agree we can do better than 2013. But France v Lebanon for example is not going to get anywhere near 30k in the UK with another 30 games going on within a 100 miles radius. Best we can hope for us 15-20k within the UK imo, so why not give it to France and support the game there.

Yep I agree but the government money £15m was based on a concentration of games in big northern stadiums with a select few outside. France need to win the bid to host games with a compelling business case - both in terms of event and delivery. This includes city funding, corporates and up to 45-50k attending across 2 games. Otherwise you have not moved the RL World Cup on from 2013 you have just taken the soft option all round.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Your problem is, as i mentioned before, the risk of the tournament starting so slowly that we never get that momentum created by Tonga beating NZ in a group game.

It was that that had people believe Fiji could beat NZ and Tonga could beat England, added to Englands good performance against Australia showing that we were competitive. 

You need big early matches not only to grab attention and get the ball rolling but to give context to the later stages. 

I think your expectations of England are huge, and i dont think some of the smaller games will get close. I think we are missing a huge trick by not having big games in the group stages as that would give us some tent poles to build around.

If we are ambitious, lets assume we do well in the later stages. We sell out Old Trafford for the final. thats 75k. We get 75k at wembley for a double header and thats 150k. We do well at the quarter finals and get an average of 40k. 

That would leave us needing an average of 26k per group game.  

If we could then have some tent pegs in the group stages we can bring that average down.

We can go 60k for the opener because its the opener. We can aim for the same for England v Australia. 

We can aim for 50k for NZ v Tonga, and push to the heartland international fan Samoa v Tonga and get that up to 40k and be really ambitious. Parlay that as a group in to a bigger attendances for NZ v Samoa and get that up to 30k(with possibly more).  The battles of the Haka, Siva Tau, Sipi Tau are really great spectacles. All that we can now sell. and we bring that average down to 19.5k

Then the french can go in to a group with the Lebanese (there are more Lebanese people in France than Australia) the fijians (who have name recognition and are always entertaining) and the US, and again, if we are going big we can get 30k+ for those games and we have gotten that average down to 17k.

 

I don't disagree with much of that, but the problem is that we have 3 'major' nations - whereas the job we have to do on this is sell Tonga, Samoa and Fiji as exciting teams to watch and must see events. France staging major events at home would help us. 

I'd prefer a traditionally seeded comp, but accepting that the world rankings are useless anyway, I'd be ok with use of supergroups.

The problem is that often these supergroups are not that super, there is usually a whipping boy, and it becomes clear early on that there is a top team sitting in the 'lesser' groups. But I can live with a bit of manipulation of the fixtures to get more attractive games.

I'd be more ambitious than you though, Old Trafford for a 74k opener (and I'd prefer that to be against somebody like Tonga which would hopefully see England start with a win!).

I'd use Wembley for the final and be looking for 90k. And I would avoid the double header semi and aim for two big events - England should be getting 55 to 60k in a large enough ground like Man City or St James'  and maybe Elland Rd for the 2nd one, aiming for a total of 95-100k for those two.

If we grow the aggregate attendance from 460k to 750k and stage some massive events at Wembley, Old Trafford, Olympic Stadium, St James', Man City, Anfield etc. then that is major growth for me.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, jpmc said:

If it was me And the opening game was to be England vs Australia then that would be a stand alone game at old trafford or etihad.

I would have a QF double header at Cardiff ,England vs whoever & i would assume wales will be in the QF as well,im sure we would get a lot more than 44k for that.

Are games in france really on the agenda with the british government underwriting it?

 

A QF double header could work actually as they are often tough sells.

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

Opener at Wembley. Boom. I wish the final was at Wembley too rather than OT. Since we filled OT in 2013, why not try and top that? 

I'd probably plump for Old Trafford Opener and Wembley for the Final - I wouldn't want another World Cup Final at Old Trafford.

The problem with this is maybe Old Trafford for the opener is too close to the Grand Final. Maybe the Grand Final could move for that year?

Or extra bold on the Wembley opener and Final - two 90k sellouts would make a statement.

[redjonn]

If the other nations government, namely France and Ireland provide funds like the HM Government then maybe consider(but with a guaranteed funding to the WC organizers). If no government support through funding then a polite no thanks.   

As funding is provided by HM government I can see a rational as to why Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales are considered - not France or Dublin. 

[redjonn]

Whilst talking about playing in France & Ireland how does this fit with HM Government £25 million funding (stated as £15m for WC showcase and £10m funding related to the RL infrastructure across the North as part of the "Northern Powerhouse agenda). Are their any stipulations or goals in regard to helping a positive impact on local UK economies, especially northern area's, etc:

 

[kiwis 13 6]

Must have at least one Irish World Cup game in Ireland. Same for Wales. France should have all pool games in France in bigger Cities where League is played where game has a track record of drawing good crowds Toulouse, Avignon, Carassonne or Albi.

[absentee thoughtlord]

12 hours ago, damp squib said:

You seem to be living in a bit of a Northern England bubble - I can assure you that the vast majority of people in Ireland have never heard of the sport of RL, never mind knowing that Australia are the best team. It means nothing if you don't follow the sport. Ireland might have a national curling team, I have no idea because I don't follow curling.

I don't live in the north of England.

So, if the vast majority haven't heard of it, why on Earth try staging a major game there?

Last, the only way of answering the question is to conduct a survey of Irish people. 1. Have you heard of Rugby League? 2. If ' yes', do you like it?

[Omott91]

All these numbers are ludicrous, there is no way that these crowd figures posted above are achievable. I would love it to happen but it is not believable.

[jim_57]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

I share your concerns around the targets being very ambitious, but I would rather we were aiming for 33k average and come in at 25k rather than accepting 11.5k in Perpignan from the start. 

If France got 20k average over 3 games that would absolutely contribute to the growth targets, remember not all crowds need to be at 33k.

I did a quick look and if we went with 4 groups and had Eng, NZ, Aus and France in separate groups, I reckon:

England group games could need to get an average of 61k - 74k opener at OT, plus Anfield and Olympic St.

Aus and NZ would need to be aiming at 25k for their group games.

France would need 20k for their group games.

All other group games would need to average 20k

QF's would need England at 55k and the other 3 at 30k.

Semis would need 2 x 55k

Final would need 90k at Wembley.

The above would give us 980k with 31.6k average. And that is bloody ambitious.

That said, we need to start believing we can take the next step, the RLWC has started to build up some profile in recent years, and we need to believe that we can stage events that get crowds in because it is an event.

I think growing this to be a 25k average with huge events for the key games that will get the profile is a massive success. Even the RUWC has crowds of around 10k for some games.

Absolutely, I would look at aiming for the following Stadium owners permitting:

France game 1 - Municiple Stadium, Toulouse, Capacity 37k, Aim - 25k+

France game 2 - Park des Sports, Avignon, Capacity 17.5k, Aim 17k+

Then either get adventurous with a 3rd game if guarentees can be made, or leave it at those 2.

Options for game 3:

Paris, Montpellier, Lyon, Marsielle or Bordeaux. Aim for 20k+ again.

 

If all that is too unrealistic then the games should stay in England.

[kiwis 13 6]

Well France has to qualify for world cup 1st but provided they do...

Game 1 - Toulouse - I would go for 20,000 sell out of Stade Ernst Wallon 

Game 2 - Avignon - Parc des Sports always gets good crowds 18,000

Game 3 - could be up for grabs from likes Albi, Carcassone the usual Perpignan or Lens in North if Soccer club still interested.

Potential Quarter Final open to highest bidder in UK or France.

Wales & Ireland must have at least one home game each you cant play that close to home in multiple games in world cup & not have at least 1 home game!

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Well France has to qualify for world cup 1st but provided they do...

Game 1 - Toulouse - I would go for 20,000 sell out of Stade Ernst Wallon 

Game 2 - Avignon - Parc des Sports always gets good crowds 18,000

Game 3 - could be up for grabs from likes Albi, Carcassone the usual Perpignan or Lens in North if Soccer club still interested.

Potential Quarter Final open to highest bidder in UK or France.

Wales & Ireland must have at least one home game each you cant play that close to home in multiple games in world cup & not have at least 1 home game!

Welcome to 4 years ago.

Wales and Ireland games were some of the flops of the last tournament.

[kiwis 13 6]

On 12/15/2017 at 1:38 AM, Dave T said:

Welcome to 4 years ago.

Wales and Ireland games were some of the flops of the last tournament.

Well the Tournament is in the same part of the world. Ireland has already qualified & IF France & Wales qualify obviously they will bid for games but if they can at least match or better any other bids then game are theirs to host. France got good crowds for home games 2013 i cant see anywhere getting better crowds for french games than in France itself! Wales & Ireland IF awarded World cup games need to double marketing & promotional efforts.

[wackojacko]

11 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Well the Tournament is in the same part of the world. Ireland has already qualified & IF France & Wales qualify obviously they will bid for games but if they can at least match or better any other bids then game are theirs to host. France got good crowds for home games 2013 i cant see anywhere getting better crowds for french games than in France itself! Wales & Ireland IF awarded World cup games need to double marketing & promotional efforts.

Ireland hasn't qualified...

In any case, the big question about this is government funding. It's not a contract we want to break just to shove a couple of games in France or Wales. There's £15M behind the tournament alone, that's not money the RLIF can afford to ignore.

[bird]

Bringing In a different dimension, the women's and wheelchair cups are under the umbrella of the organising committee are presumably expected to contribute to the overall total. Given the short timescale and total dominance of Australia and NZ, the women look hard to sell but the wheelchair game could have legs.

It looks far more open and both Ireland and France could play a part. France is a major player and presumably has the the audience. Belfast, along with Cardiff and a few others have major ice hockey teams and have the stadia and a fanbase which should be targetable. The games should be promoted early and venue.s booked as stadia are under constant use for concerts.