Super League clubs to compete with Rugby Union

[Niels]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Very fair points. The Championship clubs and those below may have to sort themselves out like the Football League does.

I agree with you. When I began watching championship games there was no promotion effectively, so it felt like a separate competition. Crowds were very good also. We had our own grand final and the Northern rail cup.

I can't remember being interested in Super League because there was no reason to follow it until the super 8s started. 

Therefore I still think there has to be some pathway between the competitions.

[TheReaper]

7 hours ago, EastLondonMike said:

Also, not sure why Pearson felt the need to name RU.

That was my thought too. He could easily have said changes are coming,  we're on the up, be ready and watch it happen,  without bringing up that they're smaller than another sport, or that they're comparing themselves with someone else.  Make it about RL, not RU vs RL.

[deluded pom?]

6 hours ago, Padge said:

We have always been far better at coaching converts, we don't expect too much and are willing to bide our time.

Is that because we were patient or felt duty bound because the union convert wasn’t able to return to his original sport whether he was paid by them or not? League clubs had paid the player to relinquish his amateur status whilst I’m sure a league player going to union would have something in his contract about a release if things don’t work out and the club wouldn’t lose out as much as a league club could have.

[Bob8]

12 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

Is that because we were patient or felt duty bound because the union convert wasn’t able to return to his original sport whether he was paid by them or not? League clubs had paid the player to relinquish his amateur status whilst I’m sure a league player going to union would have something in his contract about a release if things don’t work out and the club wouldn’t lose out as much as a league club could have.

It might also have been bitter experience

[roughyedspud]

10 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Very fair points. The Championship clubs and those below may have to sort themselves out like the Football League does.

Its about time championship & league one clubs "breakaway" in a commercial sense and let us sort out our own media and sponsorship deals...cos with the 12 SL chairman now in charge of super league there's gonna be little or zero trickle down money from future SL TV deals.

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Its about time championship & league one clubs "breakaway" in a commercial sense and let us sort out our own media and sponsorship deals...cos with the 12 SL chairman now in charge of super league there's gonna be little or zero trickle down money from future SL TV deals.

It could be the opposite.  SL clubs might have 1st call on SL money, so more Sky money could be freed.  Don’t the RFL have a major influence on where the money goes?

There could still be ‘breakaways’ or ‘splits’ with the proposed new clubs entering the leagues.  

[Wolford6]

The game's moribund. A bit of pizzazz from Canada, the US and France plus additional franchising for teams in London, Ireland, Wales and Scotland is just what it needs. Most people realise this but can't implement such an expanded system without finance. You could finance the whole shebang for well below the price of Philip Coutinho's transfer fee.

If Sky won't stump up, maybe the US TV networks will.

[roughyedspud]

27 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

It could be the opposite.  SL clubs might have 1st call on SL money, so more Sky money could be freed.  Don’t the RFL have a major influence on where the money goes?

There could still be ‘breakaways’ or ‘splits’ with the proposed new clubs entering the leagues.  

SL clubs will have 1st call...and last call and the only call on TV money...they've taken control now...

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

I suspect the only thing that will come out of all this is that the game isn't nearly as big as some egos...

[Padge]

26 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

SL clubs will have 1st call...and last call and the only call on TV money...they've taken control now...

SL has always been in control since its inception, the original Sky deal was with Super League Europe not the RFL, the championship clubs were bought off with a sweetener from Sky , a sweetner that they were more than willing to take.

It is only in recent years that SLE, with the promise of reduced costs and a better TV deal that some control was handed  to the RFL, Woods failed to deliver. The SL clubs have obviously had enough and have decided to go back to plan A.

 

[Tongs ya bas]

3 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Its about time championship & league one clubs "breakaway" in a commercial sense and let us sort out our own media and sponsorship deals...cos with the 12 SL chairman now in charge of super league there's gonna be little or zero trickle down money from future SL TV deals.

That should work a treat.

[Trojan]

4 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Is that because we were patient or felt duty bound because the union convert wasn’t able to return to his original sport whether he was paid by them or not? League clubs had paid the player to relinquish his amateur status whilst I’m sure a league player going to union would have something in his contract about a release if things don’t work out and the club wouldn’t lose out as much as a league club could have.

There was also the "marquee player" aspect.  Many of the converts had the potential to be good, even great RL players.  But another reason for signing them was bums on seats.  Jiffy wasn't as good as Tony Myler, but how many did he put on the gate?  He was world famous.  John Gallagher was billed as the worlds greatest rugby player. Same with Bradford's signing Terry Holmes, it was said that he paid for himself after two or three games with the increase In the gate, and he can hardly be described as a successful convert.  Many of these signings were big stars. Teams had the incentive to persevere with these players for reasons other than their abilities.  Like it or not.  And lets face it there'd have been a lot of egg on face if a club had to admit it had wasted its money.

[sweaty craiq]

RU has a far greater player base, a number of those outside backs are made for RL. If we find 2 we will win the next WC. Woods was unable to keep the value compared with other sports, I expect some fun at the next TV deal

[Padge]

11 minutes ago, Trojan said:

There was also the "marquee player" aspect.  Many of the converts had the potential to be good, even great RL players.  But another reason for signing them was bums on seats.  Jiffy wasn't as good as Tony Myler, but how many did he put on the gate?  He was world famous.  John Gallagher was billed as the worlds greatest rugby player. Same with Bradford's signing Terry Holmes, it was said that he paid for himself after two or three games with the increase In the gate, and he can hardly be described as a successful convert.  Many of these signings were big stars. Teams had the incentive to persevere with these players for reasons other than their abilities.  Like it or not.  And lets face it there'd have been a lot of egg on face if a club had to admit it had wasted its money.

 

As well as the big names though there where many who came over tried their hand as A.N. Other and then slinked back. 

There are also players like Colin Clarke, Mark Preston, Steve Hampson to name 3 at Wigan who were  signed from rugby union as little known, even unknown players who went on to make a name for themselves.

The two biggest name failures that spring to mind are John Gallagher and Stuart Evans,  Gallagher just found the game was a lot harder than he expected and Evans was just totally unfit. 

The bums on seats part of it has to be a factor, but it can have a limited time to work and repay, I watched Stuart Evans make his debut at Hilton Park, he was dreadful, word soon spread that he was a useless tub of lard and that will not put any bums on seats.

[Trojan]

3 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

RU has a far greater player base, a number of those outside backs are made for RL. If we find 2 we will win the next WC. Woods was unable to keep the value compared with other sports, I expect some fun at the next TV deal

If we'd taken Shenton or played Percival, we'd have won this world cup IMO.

[Trojan]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

 

As well as the big names though there where many who came over tried their hand as A.N. Other and then slinked back. 

There are also players like Colin Clarke, Mark Preston, Steve Hampson to name 3 at Wigan who were  signed from rugby union as little known, even unknown players who went on to make a name for themselves.

The two biggest name failures that spring to mind are John Gallagher and Stuart Evans,  Gallagher just found the game was a lot harder than he expected and Evans was just totally unfit. 

The bums on seats part of it has to be a factor, but it can have a limited time to work and repay, I watched Stuart Evans make his debut at Hilton Park, he was dreadful, word soon spread that he was a useless tub of lard and that will not put any bums on seats.

You're right of course, you could say the same of Billy Boston, one of the greatest Union signings ever. Or Clive Sullivan, John Freeman Danny Wilson, great converts, not big names.  Keith Smith who played very well for Wakey in the late 70's had been brought up playing RL, but played Union for Roundhay and England.  Or even Graham Steadman, who signed for York from Knottingley RU. He also had a RL background.  These days I doubt if kids with a RL background playing Union would be allowed to sign RL, they'd be snapped up by one of the RU Premiership sides.

Stuart Evans might have been a good signing 10 years before he signed, when a scrummaging prop was an advantage at RL, but for some reason Saints signed him just when scrummaging ability in RL was becoming less important.  I recall watching Murphy (with malicious satisfaction ) fume at Wembley in '89 that the ref was not enforcing the scrum laws.  While Stuart Evans lumbered around, about as mobile as one of the goalposts.

[Padge]

4 minutes ago, Trojan said:

You're right of course, you could say the same of Billy Boston, one of the greatest Union signings ever. Or Clive Sullivan, John Freeman Danny Wilson, great converts, not big names.  Keith Smith who played very well for Wakey in the late 70's had been brought up playing RL, but played Union for Roundhay and England.  Or even Graham Steadman, who signed for York from Knottingley RU. He also had a RL background.  These days I doubt if kids with a RL background playing Union would be allowed to sign RL, they'd be snapped up by one of the RU Premiership sides.

Stuart Evans might have been a good signing 10 years before he signed, when a scrummaging prop was an advantage at RL, but for some reason Saints signed him just when scrummaging ability in RL was becoming less important.  I recall watching Murphy (with malicious satisfaction ) fume at Wembley in '89 that the ref was not enforcing the scrum laws.  While Stuart Evans lumbered around, about as mobile as one of the goalposts.

Boston is a strange one, he was an outsider in union and thus wasn't all that well known, but he was well known in RL circles with several clubs chasing his signature. The others you list are typical examples of players  who decided to "try their hand" and were immensely successful converts.

There is of course on unknown union player that had a great impact in more recent times, Martin Offiah, he may have only been a finisher, but boy what a finisher.

[redjonn]

Well... although only one aspect. That is trying to compete with Union in attracting or keeping top players. I think a major factor in maintaining higher standards and subsequent greater media focus is being able to compete with the NRL in keeping our top players - union comes second to me otherwise we accept we are always going to be an inferior competition and only a feeder league for top talent to NRL.  With the likes of those star players playing in SL that could give better commercial opportunities.

[roughyedspud]

1 hour ago, Tongs ya bas said:

That should work a treat.

Why shouldn't it?

If Super league clubs can form a board too better decide the direction of super league then why can't there be championship board?

[sweaty craiq]

There has to be a Championship board formed for the next TV negotiations, because the product will be theirs to sell

[Mattrhino]

13 hours ago, Padge said:

I think when they talk of competing with union they are first and foremost talking of for players.

Union has been given a free hand at cherry picking our players, we have sat back and allowed it to happen.

The interesting thing is that union clubs are not immune from financial pressures, do some of the SL chairmen feel that the time is right to strike back because they are aware that union clubs are struggling.

After many high profile failures of players going to union, does union also feel that they have had their fingers burned to often.

We have always been far better at coaching converts, we don't expect too much and are willing to bide our time.

This line always gets reeled out but who have RU taken from SL who has genuinely been a star of the game in thier prime other than Robinson and Harris I can't think of anyone else and they were almost 20 years ago. in recent times. Smith,Charnley,Ashton,Solamona hardly what I call cherry picking our stars. If they were taking Tomkins,Mckmeekan,Hall, Wakins,Walmsley,Hardaker,G.williams etc.. then maybe we would have a problem.

[Toby Chopra]

11 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

This line always gets reeled out but who have RU taken from SL who has genuinely been a star of the game in thier prime other than Robinson and Harris I can't think of anyone else and they were almost 20 years ago. in recent times. Smith,Charnley,Ashton,Solamona hardly what I call cherry picking our stars. If they were taking Tomkins,Mckmeekan,Hall, Wakins,Walmsley,Hardaker,G.williams etc.. then maybe we would have a problem.

Agreed. I think in the modern age, the number of established professionals going either way will always be limited because of how much specialised coaching each set have had, even with financial parity. 

SL is far more vulnerable to the NRL than RU in losing decent players, so that's where any new financial strength should be focussed.  

Maybe RU is a more of a threat at the grassroots? With the huge amount being funnelled by the RFU into pitches, youth coaches and the like, is there a risk that even in the RL heartlands promising school-age players might be enticed over? I don't live in the heartlands so don't know if there's any crossover in catchment. 

[Trojan]

1 hour ago, Padge said:

Boston is a strange one, he was an outsider in union and thus wasn't all that well known, but he was well known in RL circles with several clubs chasing his signature. The others you list are typical examples of players  who decided to "try their hand" and were immensely successful converts.

There is of course on unknown union player that had a great impact in more recent times, Martin Offiah, he may have only been a finisher, but boy what a finisher.

I think Offiah was a little like Boston.  RL scouts had seen them and knew how good they were, the Union people either didn't know about them, or didn't want to know.  I've posted the Pathe film of Boston dominating the Army cup final before, so someone in the hierarchy of Welsh Union should surely have noticed him.

I'll  quote Ikram Butt in "Tries and Prejudice" on his mate Neil Summers, they were both playing for one of the Headingley (posh Union club at the time) junior sides and Summers was told that coming from where he did, and speaking like he did, he'd never play for the Headingley first XV on a regular basis.  He promptly signed for Bradford N.

[yanto]

14 hours ago, Padge said:

I think when they talk of competing with union they are first and foremost talking of for players.

 

"someone will eventually catch on that inflated wages going into tighthead props that can play 30 minutes in the other code can be spent just as well in rugby league. Someone will wise up to it.”

Maybe he is hinting that some money men can be convinced to put money into league rather than union and then this .this and this 

" We feel we can manage the sport in a more professional manner that appeals to more people and more sponsors.... We’re no longer prepared to be accepted as a poor relation; we’re fed up of being downtrodden as a code just because we’re on the M62 compared to the M5......feeling in the sport that over the next six months with the way we’re going, we can become a real threat to rugby union in this country.”

So maybe its not the players that are the target but some of the obscene money that is thrown at union through rich sugar daddies and huge commercial partners.My thoughts are as he says the next three months will see "significant change" is there  the possibility of a top name blue chip sponsor coming on board with some big investment  ???

 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, roughyedspud said:

Why shouldn't it?

If Super league clubs can form a board too better decide the direction of super league then why can't there be championship board?

They did it before didnt they? 

Not saying that is a reason not to do it, as long as we learn from history.