Dave T Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said: I don't honestly see what we would get by having essentially the same group of players coached by two different coaches during the same time period. In fact, I think it would only cause confusion, and potentially put us back to square one after the GB tour. I'm a bit split on it tbh. I suppose the question is do we think these players would benefit from being coached by Bennett, even if it is only for a couple of years? I'm not a massive fan of Bennett, but seeing us come so close in the World Cup Final made me think he has a place here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I think England would be better served by an English Coach. Bennett's best days are behind him, he is nearly 70. Jack Gibson was a great Coach at his peak, time does not stand still. I think a three or five Test series would indicate how close England and Australia are compared to a World Cup. World Cups seem more like a Carnival than an arm wrestle to me. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Jim Prendle said: I don't honestly see what we would get by having essentially the same group of players coached by two different coaches during the same time period. In fact, I think it would only cause confusion, and potentially put us back to square one after the GB tour. Possible, but for me it would be more about creating a ethos around a different team and ultimately a brand. Like that other code does so well.... I guess if we only see England players as the GB team then that makes it a little more difficult. Never-the-less GB should be about something different than a national team even if mainly England players.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, Allora said: I think England would be better served by an English Coach. Bennett's best days are behind him, he is nearly 70. Jack Gibson was a great Coach at his peak, time does not stand still. I think a three or five Test series would indicate how close England and Australia are compared to a World Cup. World Cups seem more like a Carnival than an arm wrestle to me. I agree. I am not saying Bennett is past it, its not like he has been away from the game, however I would like to see an English coach take over that knows our game better and ultimately the players better. I would love to see a five test series too. There would be no hiding from the series result for either team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 How on earth can people seriously suggest that GB should have a different coach to England for the 2019 tour? That's utter madness. The squad (and certainly starting XIII) is going to be almost all English players, so what would be the point of having a different coach with different ideas and tactics and working methods, just for one year? The players have had a few years to get used to how Bennett wants them to play and some people are suggesting we then have a different coach who potentially then asks them to play a whole different way. We have enough trouble beating the Aussies as it is without adding more levels of confusion and putting more barriers in the way. This isn't the rugby union British and Irish Lions. Maybe in 20 years time and IF Scotland, Wales and Ireland (if they want to be included) are producing good players, then we can have a genuine RL equivalent to the RU Lions. But this team is a million miles away from that. This is basically England with a different name and shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I should also add that I'm hoping that in 2019 GB will play Australia three times for The Ashes, and then that we'll stay as GB and play the Aussies in 2020 at home again for The Ashes, and that we'll then stay as GB for the World Cup too. Scotland and Wales are never going to be competitive in RL. It would be wonderful if they could be, but they never will be. If they couldn't produce competitive teams and enough good players back in the days when RL was professional and RU wasn't (e.g. at a time when players had a financial incentive to play RL instead of RU), then how on earth are they going to do so now? RU will take any superstars that those countries produce and they will never produce enough good players to be competitive with the likes of Australia or England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said: How on earth can people seriously suggest that GB should have a different coach to England for the 2019 tour? That's utter madness. The squad (and certainly starting XIII) is going to be almost all English players, so what would be the point of having a different coach with different ideas and tactics and working methods, just for one year? The players have had a few years to get used to how Bennett wants them to play and some people are suggesting we then have a different coach who potentially then asks them to play a whole different way. We have enough trouble beating the Aussies as it is without adding more levels of confusion and putting more barriers in the way. This isn't the rugby union British and Irish Lions. Maybe in 20 years time and IF Scotland, Wales and Ireland (if they want to be included) are producing good players, then we can have a genuine RL equivalent to the RU Lions. But this team is a million miles away from that. This is basically England with a different name and shirt. Pretty sad state if players can’t compute more than one way to play . Maybe this is a problem nowadays in general that players are overcoached to a robotic structured proportion and need to go back to playing what’s in front of them a bit more rather than being showered in stats etc . Either way the lions having a separate identity can’t be a bad thing for it or it’s under England’s shadow even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southerner80 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 5 hours ago, redjonn said: Possible, but for me it would be more about creating a ethos around a different team and ultimately a brand. Like that other code does so well.... I guess if we only see England players as the GB team then that makes it a little more difficult. Never-the-less GB should be about something different than a national team even if mainly England players.. There is a chance Powell or someone else may pick a different 25 to Bennett. Of course 10 or so players may be the same however for example at this year's WC the likes of Sam Tomkins, Jamie Ward, JJB, Jake Connor, Greg Eden will all feel they had a case for inclusion. Further then style of play will be different and there's always the chance that there are 1 or 2 outstanding non England players available. Ps agree the brand is the big thing. The British Lions shirt is iconic in Rugby of both codes. The RL one with British Coal on it is my first memory of RL. And it was a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 An interesting thread would be ‘pick your GB and England Teams’. Shouldn’t be too difficult, but how on Earth we expect the team to play a different ‘brand’ of rugby is baffling. I could understand it if the remit was ‘entertain at all costs’, but it isn’t. Still waiting to hear who the assistant is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 15 hours ago, Southerner80 said: There is a chance Powell or someone else may pick a different 25 to Bennett. Of course 10 or so players may be the same however for example at this year's WC the likes of Sam Tomkins, Jamie Ward, JJB, Jake Connor, Greg Eden will all feel they had a case for inclusion. Further then style of play will be different and there's always the chance that there are 1 or 2 outstanding non England players available. Ps agree the brand is the big thing. The British Lions shirt is iconic in Rugby of both codes. The RL one with British Coal on it is my first memory of RL. And it was a good one. I would agree.... plus in that other code they do purposely pick a uncapped player - that is maybe a existing national coach prefer subjectively another player and the uncapped also a top talent doesn't get a chance in the national team. Although I guess we don't have the abundance of talent that the other code has to pick from. Anyway as you say its about establishing an iconic and different ethos that anyone could easily identify its style of play and coaches that clearly buy-in to that philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 18 hours ago, Saint 1 said: Structure helps you play what is in front of you. If your structure doesn't give you the chance to go away from it when you see a good opportunity, it's a useless structure, and not one that any semi-competent coach would bother with, even at amateur level. I guess it depends upon what one means by structure. you always start with structure, i.e. the positions on the field immediately introduce structure in that they have a specific role. So its blatantly obvious structure plays a part but I guess it's more about the balance of keeping to the game plan or having more freedom to vary the game plan - that is without awaiting instructions from the water boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 hours ago, redjonn said: I would agree.... plus in that other code they do purposely pick a uncapped player - that is maybe a existing national coach prefer subjectively another player and the uncapped also a top talent doesn't get a chance in the national team. Although I guess we don't have the abundance of talent that the other code has to pick from. Anyway as you say its about establishing an iconic and different ethos that anyone could easily identify its style of play and coaches that clearly buy-in to that philosophy. Is the intention to create a ‘barbarians’ type team model, or a wholly competitive team? If it’s the former, could a selected team realistically challenge? If it’s the latter, would that team differ much from the England team, as it stands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Saint 1 said: But I'd expect all structures give you the opportunity to vary the gameplan to play what is in front of you. Even with someone like Wayne Bennett or Craig Bellamy, both very structured coaches/teams, if the structure said that they were going to take a drive back to the middle of the pitch to give them multiple kicking options, and they had a 4 on 1 overlap on the short side, it's hard to imagine them not being livid if their playmakers didn't see this. This idea that players are somehow banned from playing what is in front of them because of structure just isn't the case. They just have to have a good reason to deviate from it. If they don't have a good reason, they aren't playing what is in front of them anyway, they're making it up as they go along. yep, would agree but I think nobody was suggesting something like the extreme example given wouldn't be expected. Never-the-less I would suggest that some coaches encourage more or less risky play. I guess maybe why we had for one example two extremes as in the way Cas played last year and Wigan... although with Wigan injuries may have curtailed a more flamboyant approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Lowdesert said: Is the intention to create a ‘barbarians’ type team model, or a wholly competitive team? If it’s the former, could a selected team realistically challenge? If it’s the latter, would that team differ much from the England team, as it stands? Depends whom the coaches are but would agree we have issue in having a GB team that may mirror England team. On the coaches I suspect that a Powell team may have a different approach or style to a Bennett. If the GB is going to be the same as England then we may as well not bother with a GB. Maybe we have to "artificially" ensure more representation than just England first choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Bennett is exactly what the game needs here in the short term at least. When he talks people listen. When he demands a mid-season test or a warm-up game it happens. He lays down exactly what he wants before agreeing to anything. We need more people in the game (preferably working in this country) to stand up for the international game and to the clubs in both competitions. The fact that he is an astute and accomplished coach is an additional bonus which the players obviously benefit from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Scubby said: Bennett is exactly what the game needs here in the short term at least. When he talks people listen. When he demands a mid-season test or a warm-up game it happens. He lays down exactly what he wants before agreeing to anything. We need more people in the game (preferably working in this country) to stand up for the international game and to the clubs in both competitions. The fact that he is an astute and accomplished coach is an additional bonus which the players obviously benefit from. Not true as Dubai was fubar. No doubt about him being in place though, we need continuity. Betts is unsure of what is happening, after Powell was considered, and has intimated he’ll contact WB himself..Surely the RFL should do things like that, given Betts has represented the country? The measure of WB, for me, was highlighted when Chris Hill was interviewed after the Tonga game. The interviewer was focusing on downbeat suggestions that we let it slip, bad way to go to the final, errors in last 5 mins etc but Hill was buzzing about the win and Uber confident for the Final. Bennett’s brought that confidence and won all the squads trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, redjonn said: Depends whom the coaches are but would agree we have issue in having a GB team that may mirror England team. On the coaches I suspect that a Powell team may have a different approach or style to a Bennett. If the GB is going to be the same as England then we may as well not bother with a GB. Maybe we have to "artificially" ensure more representation than just England first choice. Agree, but we shouldn’t be giving caps to players for the sake of it, as it devalues those who’ve earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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