Second Canadian Team

[westside]

2 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Basketball was a pretty minor sport in Canada until the Raptors showed up, now it's all any of the inner-city Toronto kids play and we've had a couple of first round draft picks in the NBA.  Give it 10 years and Rugby League will grow in Toronto.

besides, I've got zero faith in the Canadian Rugby Union's ability to properly manage that version of the sport here.

That's true. Their merch became popular everywhere. People still rock the Carter and TMac throwbacks.

[skep155]

3 hours ago, iffleyox said:

That *can't* be the future surely? It's not expansion, it's straight transfer of the sport from one country to another.

 

Agreed.  We need some form of protectionism, not just for expansion clubs but for traditional clubs as well.  People may not like some stereotypical parochial Rugby League fans, but they have their minds made up about which sport they want to watch and they're not going to change their minds any time soon.  People in North America have plenty of sports to choose from, it wouldn't take them long to forget Rugby League.  

We are in an unenviable position in which we have to take risks, but that doesn't mean we have to take foolish risks or allow charlatans to exploit the game.  The last thing the sport needs is another Celtic Crusaders.  The next move in the direction of expansion needs to be carefully thought out and permanent.  

Toronto look promising, but I'd expect to see them developing Canadian Rugby League players, not necessarily in the short term but in the medium to long term.  

[Evil Homer]

3 hours ago, iffleyox said:

while largely staying out of this, if you're a Wakey or Salford fan isn't that exactly the problem? While great for the players, what's in it for the fans and clubs if their future is to develop their youngsters so they can get on a plane? Frankly, if I was one of those clubs and that was the future I'd close down rather than playing along with it...

I'm not anti-expansion (I live far enough south to make live SL a once or twice a year day out), but if it looks like that then it's going to kill the sport in England outside Leeds and Wigan (for spectators anyway). In exactly the same way that people don't flock to the Championship for a chance of seeing the next big SL star, no one's going to go and watch the next kid they're going to see on TV when he's crossed the Atlantic.  OK, some will, but I bet they're in 3 figures rather than 4.

That *can't* be the future surely? It's not expansion, it's straight transfer of the sport from one country to another.

Wakefield and Salford have had 100 years and can barely muster a few thousand fans. I'd say the Wakefield and Salford experiments have failed, it's clear that there isn't enough interest in RL in those markets and we should be looking at other areas where the sport might be more popular.

[CanadianRugger]

1 hour ago, skep155 said:

 

Agreed.  We need some form of protectionism, not just for expansion clubs but for traditional clubs as well.  People may not like some stereotypical parochial Rugby League fans, but they have their minds made up about which sport they want to watch and they're not going to change their minds any time soon.  People in North America have plenty of sports to choose from, it wouldn't take them long to forget Rugby League.  

We are in an unenviable position in which we have to take risks, but that doesn't mean we have to take foolish risks or allow charlatans to exploit the game.  The last thing the sport needs is another Celtic Crusaders.  The next move in the direction of expansion needs to be carefully thought out and permanent.  

Toronto look promising, but I'd expect to see them developing Canadian Rugby League players, not necessarily in the short term but in the medium to long term.  

I think a big problem right now is the team is based in the UK.  Long term I would like to see them move their home base to Toronto and I imagine they will eventually.

[The Parksider]

6 hours ago, iffleyox said:

while largely staying out of this, if you're a Wakey or Salford fan isn't that exactly the problem? While great for the players, what's in it for the fans and clubs if their future is to develop their youngsters so they can get on a plane? Frankly, if I was one of those clubs and that was the future I'd close down rather than playing along with it...

I'm not anti-expansion (I live far enough south to make live SL a once or twice a year day out), but if it looks like that then it's going to kill the sport in England outside Leeds and Wigan (for spectators anyway).That *can't* be the future surely? It's not expansion, it's straight transfer of the sport from one country to another.

Exactly

2 hours ago, skep155 said:

Agreed.  We need some form of protectionism, not just for expansion clubs but for traditional clubs as well.  People may not like some stereotypical parochial Rugby League fans, but they have their minds made up about which sport they want to watch and they're not going to change their minds any time soon.  People in North America have plenty of sports to choose from, it wouldn't take them long to forget Rugby League.  

We are in an unenviable position in which we have to take risks, but that doesn't mean we have to take foolish risks or allow charlatans to exploit the game.  The last thing the sport needs is another Celtic Crusaders.  The next move in the direction of expansion needs to be carefully thought out and permanent.    

The silent majority are finally starting to speak out. The idea 100,000 English Superleague fans who diet on a game of Saints.v.Wigan, Leeds.v.Bradford, Hull.v.HKR and Warrington.v.Widnes are going to be attracted to watching Toronto or New York is absurd. The problem I had when I went to see Toronto in Halifax is it was clear to me and everyone else this wasn’t a Canadian team. It was an English team. Having said that I’ve seen Paris at Headingley with real French players in there, but they attracted a poor crowd. Equally I’ve see London with Londoners and Crusaders with Welsh players but still the poorest of crowds. Easiest options for the fans in the new world of Transatlantic Superleague are 1. Not to bother with a season ticket, just pick out the proper matches, or 2. Not to bother at all. That’s for fans who still have a Superleague club to watch. If HKR, Widnes, Cas, Huddersfield and Bradford are shut out for Toronto, New York, Boston, Hamilton and whoever then that will certainly be the English fanbase devastated.

Then there are the “Canadian” player development plans. It is said they are to start Manchester University as a development team. Oh great!!  What is NOT said is the exclusion of five English Superleague clubs to make way for North Americans will end up with several English academies closed down. (someone from Canada please have the good grace to actually acknowledge this) 

The bottom line in these posts is the message from English fans is a transatlantic game could just be the time to walk away.........

[Kayakman]

29 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

make way for North Americans will end up with several English academies closed down. (someone from Canada please have the good grace to actually acknowledge this) 

 

 

Nope...you got it wrong...we are planning on opening more academies...1000's of em in the works!  Hundreds of thousands of academies!

[Omott91]

21 hours ago, The Parksider said:

There are reportedly 631,295  Ice hockey players in Canada but only a handful of RL players, because Rugby Union dominates nearly 100% in Canada and they are the ones set to go professional in a North American league. There is no junior infrastructure in Canadian RL just a tiny smattering of open age teams. This debate is marked out by Canadian Rugby League  been seen as the future of the game on no particular basis other than that people like you would like to see it be so. I've nothing against you, you are a fine fellow but the only way you can even attempt "expansion" is to cause "contraction" here. The point I make "ad infinitum" is that you cannot ship squad after squad of professional English players to Canada, and replace English SL club after English SL club in doing so without this "artificial" expansion causing the equivalent contraction in the game here. What I remind people of many times merely counters the many times that you and many others fail to answer my points.

What am I supposed to offer an alternative to? For starters Bristol is at the heart of English RU. It's south West area is a massive Union stronghold with a very long history of the Union game there. RL has just lost close by Gloucester RL who they set up, and who by the time they shut down had crowds of 134. It's not that they didn't have a "SL standard playing pool" it's just that like Canada they don't play RL in the south west of England just like they don't play RL in Canada.

I don't think you have a clue on the facts here with respect. Do you not realise that the plan is for North American clubs to "grow" by replacing English Superleague clubs. Do you not realise they don't play RL in Canada so they want to ship whole squads of english players out there? Do you not realise if Widnes, Huddersfield, Wakefield  and Castleford were replaced by Boston, New York, Toronto and Hamilton then the English clubs would have to go semi professional and close their young player development teams? Where do the players then come from and don't say Canada. Kids all play Union there.

Looks like your a Newcastle Knights fan? How about a rich man in Denver buys your club, calls it Denver Cowboys and ships your best 30 players over to North America to play in a Transatlantic Superleague? How "negative" would you be then? Come on - over to you

This is a debate/discussion site but sadly there is no debate/discussion on the issues I raise, in fact these issues are almost taboo because the underlying issue is English RL may lose it's TV contract here.  All this is is the Vultures circling ready to ship the game to America where the All American professional Rugby Union will swallow it up. ........ Now answer my points please gentlemen without disparaging me......

It is ironic that you're the one saying I don't have a clue about the facts here. 

None of your arguments are based on facts. They are merely opinions or assumptions on a hypothetical idea that you have concocted to argue against TWP and possible future NA clubs. The number one rule of debating is to back up your views with facts, something your posts have never done. Hence your views are simply opinions and assumptions, which everyone has a right to express and view. However, one should also learn to appreciate other views and when presented with solid facts, take them on board. 

The RFL are looking at are most likely going to add 2 more spots in SL to accommodate more clubs so the likelihood of an influx of English clubs dropping is less. Who is to say that new NA clubs will be competitive enough to gain promotion straight away?

Just in the last few days we have seen articles posted on what the Canadians are doing to try and develop future players. It will take time, look at the Melbourne Storm, 3 juniors in 20years but are argueably the most successful rl team in the world. Plus a team from Ontario possibly entering USARL. You wanted some development, as soon as you see what they are doing you change your argument to ''they need to be SL standard''.

In terms of support the TWP have greater attendance than some SL clubs and when playing other clubs away usually sets the highest gate for those clubs, we have already seen that this year. I know what you will say ''it because they are trendy atm and crowds will drop'', you have no facts to prove this.

On to the Knights, what you stated is absurd ''How about a rich man in Denver buys your club, calls it Denver Cowboys and ships your best 30 players over to North America to play in a Transatlantic Superleague''. Will never happen as the NRL would block it. Plus the Knights are a major development club and I am positive that if you asked some of the guys who didn't make the top level if they would leave Cessnock, Kurri Kurri or even Toronto (yes, there is a town just south of Newcastle called Toronto) they would jump at the chance.

In future, you can't change your argument midway to suit your viewpoint.

Regards.

[Roryfellinghamwebb]

7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Then there are the “Canadian” player development plans. It is said they are to start Manchester University as a development team. Oh great!!  What is NOT said is the exclusion of five English Superleague clubs to make way for North Americans will end up with several English academies closed down. (someone from Canada please have the good grace to actually acknowledge this) 

 

Is that such a bad thing? Between £150 000 to £300 000 for academies to rarely produce more than 1 or 2 top end players every couple of years. Hardly a production line. Players leaving academies at 19 are not prepared for open age competitions and often drop out of the game all together. 

Why not accept that whilst academies have their place, they are not the magic allotments of talent. More talent can be nurtured in other ways and the money better spent on other development strategies. 

[RayCee]

I have been avoiding this topic as it goes around in circles.

For the good folk who have joined us from Canada, most here see the benefits you and the USA will bring to the game. 

More fans turning up to watch = more revenue for the game. Some SL clubs attendances are very poor.

Greater TV and media opportunities = more money for the game. 

Sponsors who may never have considered SL and seeing more international exposure for RL will become involved = more money for the game. 

The UK championship and the Queensland State League proving there are players able to deliver quality on the field. They need the break expansion will bring.

Young Nth American athletes getting to know about RL and giving it a go. This will take time but the potential is breathtaking.

RL has an amazing opportunity before it. So much to gain and nothing to lose. 

[winnyason]

10 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Exactly

The silent majority are finally starting to speak out. The idea 100,000 English Superleague fans who diet on a game of Saints.v.Wigan, Leeds.v.Bradford, Hull.v.HKR and Warrington.v.Widnes are going to be attracted to watching Toronto or New York is absurd. The problem I had when I went to see Toronto in Halifax is it was clear to me and everyone else this wasn’t a Canadian team. It was an English team. Having said that I’ve seen Paris at Headingley with real French players in there, but they attracted a poor crowd. Equally I’ve see London with Londoners and Crusaders with Welsh players but still the poorest of crowds. Easiest options for the fans in the new world of Transatlantic Superleague are 1. Not to bother with a season ticket, just pick out the proper matches, or 2. Not to bother at all. That’s for fans who still have a Superleague club to watch. If HKR, Widnes, Cas, Huddersfield and Bradford are shut out for Toronto, New York, Boston, Hamilton and whoever then that will certainly be the English fanbase devastated.

Then there are the “Canadian” player development plans. It is said they are to start Manchester University as a development team. Oh great!!  What is NOT said is the exclusion of five English Superleague clubs to make way for North Americans will end up with several English academies closed down. (someone from Canada please have the good grace to actually acknowledge this) 

The bottom line in these posts is the message from English fans is a transatlantic game could just be the time to walk away.........

Still dribbling 

[winnyason]

I jumped back on and not to read park whatever ######.

So whats the story with new york when an announcement and same with other bids ?

[The Parksider]

On 28/02/2018 at 7:03 AM, Omott91 said:

On to the Knights, what you stated is absurd ''How about a rich man in Denver buys your club, calls it Denver Cowboys and ships your best 30 players over to North America to play in a Transatlantic Superleague''. Will never happen as the NRL would block it.

This is a gem. As soon as I suggest YOUR club is disbanded to facilitate a second North American club, you take immediate fright and declare that the NRL should save you from a North American takeover. Come on Omott, Knights are hardly that great an assett to the NRL. An Antipodean-American League will be brilliant, RL could take over the world, sacrifice yourself for us?

23 hours ago, RayCee said:

The benefits (Canada) and the USA will bring to the game. 

More fans turning up,  more revenue for the game, Greater TV and media opportunities, more money for the game. More international exposure for RL will become involved = more money for the game. 

Young Nth American athletes getting to know about RL and giving it a go. the potential is breathtaking. RL has an amazing opportunity before it. So much to gain and nothing to lose. 

That's one heck of a business plan, take that down to your bank for a loan. You appear to have disappeared inside your own head Ray. It's the last bit that get's me because actually the plan involves "losing" half of  Superleague here to North America to form the Transatlantic league.

Here is a fact for Omott. Perez said recently "When we started this journey, we knew that one team is not enough to yield what you need to yield from the market.To bring revenues, to really start bringing new money into the sport you've got to have multi-markets. Now that Toronto is up and running It's time to fulfil that destiny and get the next teams set up”. What we have to lose in Perez's own words is 5-6 English Superleague clubs from Superleague to make way for the North Americans. This will devastate us.

On 28/02/2018 at 7:47 AM, Roryfellinghamwebb said:

Is that such a bad thing? Between £150 000 to £300 000 for academies to rarely produce more than 1 or 2 top end players every couple of years. Hardly a production line. Why not accept that whilst academies have their place, they are not the magic allotments of talent. More talent can be nurtured in other ways and the money better spent on other development strategies. 

As the message slowly sinks in a Transatlantic game will kill us here, the counter debate get's more extreme. Are you really telling us that the Academy system is a failure, and that we can close it down for "other development strategies"  The SL clubs nurture the schools and junior game and accommodate the best kids through academies to create the bulk of our playing rosters. We don't have enough kids or academies playing so we top up with imports. We cannot lose several academies to accommodate North American "clubs" who won't develop players for 15-20 years if ever and will get all their best picked off by professional American RU.

As the snow falls outside my window, I reflect on these posts above that are so devoid of any reality, that maybe just maybe the more considered posters are getting it that a Transatlantic league won't work.

[Ackroman]

I noticed the board narcissist is back to calling names

[Angelic Cynic]

On 2/22/2018 at 3:14 PM, Bullish Giant Rhino said:

I know we've heard a lot about New York recently. But Eric Perez said a year or so back that he wanted a second Canadian team in League 1 in 2019. Clearly the ongoing debate about the structure of the leagues won't help, but where is this new team?

I've seen no news whatsoever and after all, this North American dream is as much Eric Perez as it will ever be anybody's! 

  So where is the Scarlet Pimpernel/Pied Piper of Rugby League?

What is happening at his first club?

https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/a-testing-time-for-toronto-wolfpack

[jenson]

50 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Here is a fact for Omott. Perez said recently "When we started this journey, we knew that one team is not enough to yield what you need to yield from the market.To bring revenues, to really start bringing new money into the sport you've got to have multi-markets. Now that Toronto is up and running It's time to fulfil that destiny and get the next teams set up”. What we have to lose in Perez's own words is 5-6 English Superleague clubs from Superleague to make way for the North Americans. This will devastate us.

The quote is the only ‘fact’, right?

You have revealed some insightful points, but this isn’t one of your best. 

It’s quite obvious Perez’s own words did not state any super league clubs need ‘to make way for the North Americans’. 

TWP started in 2017. It might be a stretch for them to make super league in 2019. Maybe 2020 if things fall into place. 5-6 NA teams will not quickly appear at SL level. So there is time for existing clubs to innovate and compete. But regardless of NA, rugby league faces a huge challenge. Support and player numbers are dropping (a challenge only faced by many sports beyond rugby league). Historic clubs are dying, and that started long before TWP. Compared to other global sports and entertainment options rugby league is not in a position of power. It’s barely a blip. 

That matters. It matters for today’s casual fan. It matters for tomorrow’s fan because, most importantly, it matters for tomorrow’s athlete. Athletes want exposure and opportunity. Fans want to watch the best athletes. 

Rugby League needs a shot in the arm. It needs something to inspire current and future athletes to lob on down to the local academy, whether in Salford, Cumbria or Toronto and make a career from it. 

North America seems to be that something at the moment. Toulouse, PNG Hunters, a possible Fiji team, Serbia, even London in the lower grades are all good examples of things happening in new and exciting directions. Tonga and Fiji at the World Cup. RLWC 2025 in the US. But they haven’t captured the imagination of players and fans like TWP or the NYC bid. The time spent on the approval of NA bids indicate the RFL are doing reasonable diligence. There will be challenges. There will be heartache. There will be success stories, some of which might even come from the heartlands. I’m all for this NA experiment. 

[TheReaper]

On ‎27‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 9:27 AM, TheReaper said:

Real good discussion of the second Canadian location here guys. NY real estate, immigration, player development and league structure... Those all really help decide between the hammer and MTL.

Well done everyone.

 

Where do you guys think a Hamilton team would play? THF and Mac seem the two best options.

Assuming Bob Young/Tiger-Cats involvement, you'd think they'd want THF to fill more dates at the stadium. However all the legal battles between the team, contractors, and levels of government might be an obstacle. It seems like it is for the proposed CPL team. And at 24k probably quite a bit larger than would be needed.

Ron Joyce Stadium at McMAster seats about 6k, all on one side, which would be plenty to start I would think. The MLL Hamilton Nationals played there, as well as the Cats temporarily, so the school is open to renting to pro teams. The permanent football lines could be an issue, and was new in 2016 so won't be replaced for a while.

 

Montreal has similar options, Saputo at 20k large again but has real grass. CEPSUM at U de M about 5k and turf. Not sure where else might be on the radar, assuming they wouldn't go even bigger and use Molson at McGill. Maybe any posters more familiar with the city can comment.

[Oxford]

Lot of reaction to a one "man" scare campaign here.

"If we allow North American clubs in the world will disappear and they eat babies!"

The only thing left is ....... they don't wash their hands after going to the toilet!

We have to have concerns about the implications of any change in our game but this is like panic buying at the local supermarket because it might snow in 2021.

[RayCee]

I don't get the argument that teams from outside of the heartland will devastate UK RL. We don't even know how many sides will be playing in SL next year. The number of teams should grow as newbies come on board. And yes, there are enough players for more teams. 

[Kayakman]

4 hours ago, RayCee said:

I don't get the argument that teams from outside of the heartland will devastate UK RL.

What is it they say "Paranoia mind destroya?"

[Celt]

Looks like we have dodged a real bullet with NYC.

It appears that rugby union are going in there (MLR) run by an Irish conglomerate and tapping into the union club scene there.  

I strongly suspect that union (MLR) will come into Toronto very soon (2 or 3 years) so the WolfPack really needs to work hard to bed in and become 'established' on the sporting scene.

Taking on union in these limited 'rugby' markets would be suicide IMO, so fair dos in going for MTL.

[Guest]

On 27/02/2018 at 4:33 PM, Krzzystuff said:

a bit of info on what TWP are planning for player development, more details to come.

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/2018/02/27/toronto-wolfpack-expand-partnership-manchester-metropolitan-university/

“We have a responsibility to use our status as the first professional rugby club in North America to grow the game wherever possible. The relationship with Manchester Metropolitan University will allow us to show talented high school and University athletes in Canada a clear route into the professional game.”

Further details around the Wolfpack’s development pathway will be released over the coming months, including separate plans for ages 6-11, 11-16 and 16-18 year olds. These will be mirrored in Canada and the UK with Wolfpack 1st team players taking an active role in coaching across the pathway on both sides of the Atlantic.

“In Canada we need to ensure we are working with all ages and abilities to grow our game. Our key focus this summer in Toronto will be on inspiring children to enjoy the benefits of rugby participation and encouraging more adults into the game” Lidbury concluded.

 

You're running before you can walk again. The pathway to the professional game doesn't exist yet.

[jpmc]

8 hours ago, Celt said:

Looks like we have dodged a real bullet with NYC.

It appears that rugby union are going in there (MLR) run by an Irish conglomerate and tapping into the union club scene there.  

I strongly suspect that union (MLR) will come into Toronto very soon (2 or 3 years) so the WolfPack really needs to work hard to bed in and become 'established' on the sporting scene.

Taking on union in these limited 'rugby' markets would be suicide IMO, so fair dos in going for MTL.

What do you mean we've dodged a bullet ?

[Oxford]

12 minutes ago, jpmc said:

What do you mean we've dodged a bullet ?

Yawn are doing this! kick and clap are moving in! what time does the rugby start are in the process of .........

'Fraidy cat stuff from the people who brought you the yawnion Gruffalo! and I wouldn't ever start from here!

Be afraid, be very afraid!

 

[Roryfellinghamwebb]

On 01/03/2018 at 8:57 AM, The Parksider said:

As the message slowly sinks in a Transatlantic game will kill us here, the counter debate get's more extreme. Are you really telling us that the Academy system is a failure, and that we can close it down for "other development strategies"  The SL clubs nurture the schools and junior game and accommodate the best kids through academies to create the bulk of our playing rosters. We don't have enough kids or academies playing so we top up with imports. We cannot lose several academies to accommodate North American "clubs" who won't develop players for 15-20 years if ever and will get all their best picked off by professional American RU.

As per my post, I am saying that academies have their place but do not produce player after player. They also let players down on the educational side. Is a £300k academy worth it? I'm saying no. Do they nurture schools and the junior game? You obviously have no experience of junior rugby, no, they take whichever players they feel like with minimal 'development days'. 

Should each club have them? At this moment in time, the regional academies are adequate. 

10 hours ago, SL17 said:

You're running before you can walk again. The pathway to the professional game doesn't exist yet.

Not sure how the pathway doesn't exist here SL17? It's already been released...school - university - reserves - 1st team. Same for both sides of the Atlantic with Manchester Metropolitan and Toronto Universities having exchange programs for Canadian students. It seems they are choosing this route as this is the generally accepted North American development route and which, in light of what I've posted above, I think is a great way to go. 

[Celt]

20 hours ago, jpmc said:

What do you mean we've dodged a bullet ?

Well my understanding (i have not read every post on the thread) was that New York was a potential venue, but is no longer being considered?

As such, I thought this is positive, as putting a 'pro' Rugby League team in there running out against Gloucester Students, Hemel Hempstead and South Wales etc would lose out in a head to head with a professional rugby union franchise.  The 'rugby' community in New York will (I think) jump in to support the new union team and their backers appear to be very knowledgable indeed, and focussed on getting good people on board.

So... my real fear was that RL would not gain a foothold in NY, and the team would die quickly.