Robin Evans Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Discuss. Could catcalling and wolf-whistling become hate crimes? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43303874 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 19 minutes ago, Robin Evans said: Discuss. Could catcalling and wolf-whistling become hate crimes? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43303874 would be interesting to get a bit more info. They say in the test 79 misogynistic acts were recorded, with 31 as hate crimes, so there does appear to be some filtering - would be good to know what that is. Hate crime seems to be a strange category, why not just strengthen misogynistic act punishments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I think some people out there really need to read a dictionary definition of “hate”. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Interesting that the headline is the click baiting wolf whistling one but most of the story is about upskirting. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, gingerjon said: Interesting that the headline is the click baiting wolf whistling one but most of the story is about upskirting. There would be a lot of paparazzi in jail if that one became law. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, ckn said: There would be a lot of paparazzi in jail if that one became law. You say that as if its a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 There are a few well-known "cat-calling" hotspots round my neck of the woods - some of the reports from women who have been harassed in those areas are pretty disturbing, and deserve better than the dismissive responses from some of the posters above. It's worth considering, though I'm not sure how it would be written into law in a way that's fair. (The hate crime element should not be dismissed out of hand either - again, locally, some of the cat-calling when challenged has reportedly morphed into sexual and/ or racial harassment). It's not a question of coming down to earth, Mr Duxbury. Some of us, Mr Duxbury, belong in the stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, Stevo said: There are a few well-known "cat-calling" hotspots round my neck of the woods - some of the reports from women who have been harassed in those areas are pretty disturbing, and deserve better than the dismissive responses from some of the posters above. It's worth considering, though I'm not sure how it would be written into law in a way that's fair. (The hate crime element should not be dismissed out of hand either - again, locally, some of the cat-calling when challenged has reportedly morphed into sexual and/ or racial harassment). There's a difference though between an unwanted wolf-whistle that may be annoying but has no INTENT behind it and outright harassment that genuinely falls into hate crime territory. The problem with all the wording being used is that it allows the media and others to put the two into one basket. Keep harassment that borders on a crime in a different basket otherwise you create fuzzy lines. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, ckn said: There's a difference though between an unwanted wolf-whistle that may be annoying but has no INTENT behind it and outright harassment that genuinely falls into hate crime territory. The problem with all the wording being used is that it allows the media and others to put the two into one basket. Keep harassment that borders on a crime in a different basket otherwise you create fuzzy lines. Well, yes - but the women perceive an intent. And locally, the reports are so numerous and so tightly clustered around a few specific places that it would be hard not to agree that there is an intent to harass and intimate. It's not a question of coming down to earth, Mr Duxbury. Some of us, Mr Duxbury, belong in the stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 A wolf whistle "hate" though? Ok.... not for 40 years have I done this.... but I can't say I "hated" anyone I whistled at when I was 16/17 years old..... Im towing with that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddleworth Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Robin Evans said: A wolf whistle "hate" though? Ok.... not for 40 years have I done this.... but I can't say I "hated" anyone I whistled at when I was 16/17 years old..... Im towing with that one I have no chance Robin, unless I take my teeth out. I reckon it"s some work that a lot of folk want. Nowt else to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Stevo said: Well, yes - but the women perceive an intent. And locally, the reports are so numerous and so tightly clustered around a few specific places that it would be hard not to agree that there is an intent to harass and intimate. I think some women need to get a grip. When I was young I used to love being wolf-whistled. Usually it was builders who did it and it was totally harmless. I really don't like the hate crime law. It's way, way too vague and is becoming insidious in its reach as a result. We have enough law already on the statute books IMO and if we need more then we should add laws covering specific acts rather than something so vague that basically anything causing offence to anyone could end up being covered by it. So I'm firmly in the camp that wolf-whistles should NOT illegal, and nor should 'up-skirting' even though it may be unpleasant to experience. We cannot make every unpleasant experience illegal. That is just completely over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 when I was young, one of my mums mates was a bit of a glamourpuss, I remember her saying " the only thing to worry about regarding wolfwhistles is when you stop getting them" see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Saintslass said: I think some women need to get a grip. When I was young I used to love being wolf-whistled. Usually it was builders who did it and it was totally harmless. I really don't like the hate crime law. It's way, way too vague and is becoming insidious in its reach as a result. We have enough law already on the statute books IMO and if we need more then we should add laws covering specific acts rather than something so vague that basically anything causing offence to anyone could end up being covered by it. So I'm firmly in the camp that wolf-whistles should NOT illegal, and nor should 'up-skirting' even though it may be unpleasant to experience. We cannot make every unpleasant experience illegal. That is just completely over the top. You dont think taking photos up women's skirts of their crotches should be illegal? And we arent just talking about a celeb getting out of a car here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just because some women enjoy attention from strangers I dont think others should have to put up with wolf-whistles (and often crude things) being aimed at them. How that is stopped I dont know, hate crime seems a nonsense, but I wouldnt be happy if my wife was wolf-whistled by a group of workmen when she is innocently walking to work, or in future years, my daughter, and making thrm uncomfortable. Im not sure why we are trying to excuse bad behaviour again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Dave T said: Just because some women enjoy attention from strangers I dont think others should have to put up with wolf-whistles (and often crude things) being aimed at them. How that is stopped I dont know, hate crime seems a nonsense, but I wouldnt be happy if my wife was wolf-whistled by a group of workmen when she is innocently walking to work, or in future years, my daughter, and making thrm uncomfortable. Im not sure why we are trying to excuse bad behaviour again. It's okay, the definitely female and definitely real poster above has said it's not a problem. Hate crime for wolf whistling seems extreme - and upskirting is more an invasion of privacy issue (though that downplays it possibly too much) which can be covered without that. But I have no problem at all with wolf whistling being seen as wrong behaviour that should be challenged. Because it is, and it should be. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Willow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Upskirting should be treated in the same way that taking photos covertly of people getting changed in gyms etc .It is peeping tom and it is creepy. Wolf whistling is a little more difficult, I would hope this was a thing of the past. I can remember having to run the gauntlet of building sites and it was uncomfortable, but the odd bloke whistling is less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Red Willow said: Upskirting should be treated in the same way that taking photos covertly of people getting changed in gyms etc .It is peeping tom and it is creepy. I would agree with that to some degree, if someone is hanging around with the purpose of doing little else, and there is already legislation in place for such behaviour if someone wants to report it. Sticking it under hate crime law would just invite other problems. If someone lifts a woman's skirt to look underneath then that is assault and in my view always has been assault. However, looking up a woman's skirt when the opportunity arises - walking down those open staircases for instance - cannot possibly be considered a crime in my view. Taking a picture in an opportunistic manner wouldn't be a crime in my view either given that people can take pictures of other people in public places without obtaining permission. Again, if someone is hanging around intent only on looking under women's skirts then I would agree with you, it's creepy, and it's peeping tom stuff that can be dealt with under the relevant law. Quote Wolf whistling is a little more difficult, I would hope this was a thing of the past. I can remember having to run the gauntlet of building sites and it was uncomfortable, but the odd bloke whistling is less so. I haven't heard a wolf whistle for years. I don't mean directed at me - I've long since left that level of youth behind! - but just generally at anyone. I didn't share your experience. I used to get a buzz from it without forgetting that builders were pretty generous with their wolf whistles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Dave T said: Just because some women enjoy attention from strangers I dont think others should have to put up with wolf-whistles (and often crude things) being aimed at them. How that is stopped I dont know, I know. The women who find it uncomfortable should make a complaint to the relevant authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Dave T said: You dont think taking photos up women's skirts of their crotches should be illegal? And we arent just talking about a celeb getting out of a car here. What are you talking about? A man going up to a woman, lifting her skirt and taking a photo of what is underneath? If that is what you are talking about then that is assault and should be treated as such. Or are you talking about an opportunist? He looks up and sees a girl walking down the stairs above him and takes a photo? If that is what you are talking about then the woman should just get on with her life. Or are you talking about a man lurking with intent, taking such photos being his sole reason for being there? If that is what you are talking about then he's a creep, a peeping Tom, and the woman can report him just as women have been reporting peeping Toms forever (given that they have always existed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, Saintslass said: I would agree with that to some degree, if someone is hanging around with the purpose of doing little else, and there is already legislation in place for such behaviour if someone wants to report it. Sticking it under hate crime law would just invite other problems. If someone lifts a woman's skirt to look underneath then that is assault and in my view always has been assault. However, looking up a woman's skirt when the opportunity arises - walking down those open staircases for instance - cannot possibly be considered a crime in my view. Taking a picture in an opportunistic manner wouldn't be a crime in my view either given that people can take pictures of other people in public places without obtaining permission. Again, if someone is hanging around intent only on looking under women's skirts then I would agree with you, it's creepy, and it's peeping tom stuff that can be dealt with under the relevant law. I haven't heard a wolf whistle for years. I don't mean directed at me - I've long since left that level of youth behind! - but just generally at anyone. I didn't share your experience. I used to get a buzz from it without forgetting that builders were pretty generous with their wolf whistles! The current laws do not stop someone putting a phone or camera under a skirt and taking pictures or video. I agree that it isn't a hate crime, but it should be illegal. If someone stands behind you on an escalator, they can film up your skirt without assaulting you. The existing laws only cover it if there are more than 2 people to witness it. The Voyourism laws don't cover it either. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Saintslass said: What are you talking about? A man going up to a woman, lifting her skirt and taking a photo of what is underneath? If that is what you are talking about then that is assault and should be treated as such. Or are you talking about an opportunist? He looks up and sees a girl walking down the stairs above him and takes a photo? If that is what you are talking about then the woman should just get on with her life. Or are you talking about a man lurking with intent, taking such photos being his sole reason for being there? If that is what you are talking about then he's a creep, a peeping Tom, and the woman can report him just as women have been reporting peeping Toms forever (given that they have always existed). You can report him, its just not a crime currently. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Saintslass said: What are you talking about? A man going up to a woman, lifting her skirt and taking a photo of what is underneath? If that is what you are talking about then that is assault and should be treated as such. Or are you talking about an opportunist? He looks up and sees a girl walking down the stairs above him and takes a photo? If that is what you are talking about then the woman should just get on with her life. Or are you talking about a man lurking with intent, taking such photos being his sole reason for being there? If that is what you are talking about then he's a creep, a peeping Tom, and the woman can report him just as women have been reporting peeping Toms forever (given that they have always existed). If you don't know what is meant by "upskirting" then perhaps you shouldn't comment until you find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Shadow said: If you don't know what is meant by "upskirting" then perhaps you shouldn't comment until you find out. I think my post was a little too nuanced for you. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said: You can report him, its just not a crime currently. Are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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