Boxing

[DavidM]

Personally my overriding emotion was one of sadness watching that . When you think of what he was , the skill set , the fluidity , the mobility allied to timing and power , that was just a different person . In his head he may have believed ( maybe not ) but he was say off you can think you were sold a pup there . Surely he knew deep down when you see how all over the place he was , how little coordination or timing was there , and blowing for tugs after two rounds ? The inactivity , wear n year and injuries are just far to much and were all there below the facade of the Adonis . Obviously he hoped for a big shot and to find something deep down but it was wishful thinking . It was embarrassing at times and Bellew just sort of shrugged and toyed with him . I’m still not sold on him as a heavy , these fights didn’t answer the questions . I’d like to see him fight the super series winner as they are belting fighters . Overall I feel a bit cheated by Haye there after the build up he sold . Haven’t heard the reaction yet but that must be it.

Edited May 6, 2018 by DavidM

[Maximus Decimus]

On 06/05/2018 at 7:11 AM, Bob8 said:

Haye manages to be gracious in defeat.

British boxing is having halcyon days.

I never can quite believe Haye when he's being gracious, I think it's more a reaction to the ridicule he has got in the past. It seemed likely he was carrying an injury on Saturday but he wasn't going to say. 

I'm pleased for Bellew because he put to rest the doubts from the first fight. I'll admit to being someone who thought it was only Hayes achilles that stopped him from winning. 

The momentum seems to be for Bellew-Fury post fight which is certainly intriguing but I'm not sure how much of a chance Bellew would have. 

[Bob8]

9 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I never can quite believe Haye when he's being gracious, I think it's more a reaction to the ridicule he has got in the past. It seemed likely he was carrying an injury on Saturday but he wasn't going to say. 

I'm pleased for Bellew because he put to rest the doubts from the first fight. I'll admit to being someone who thought it was only Hayes achilles that stopped him from winning. 

The momentum seems to be for Bellew-Fury post fight which is certainly intriguing but I'm not sure how much of a chance Bellew would have. 

I can understand this, but even if it is just learning from being told off, it is still good.  And, I very much doubt he was planning what to say when he lost.  

He is also older, it affects us all.

[Maximus Decimus]

On 06/05/2018 at 10:17 AM, DavidM said:

Personally my overriding emotion was one of sadness watching that . When you think of what he was , the skill set , the fluidity , the mobility allied to timing and power , that was just a different person . In his head he may have believed ( maybe not ) but he was say off you can think you were sold a pup there . Surely he knew deep down when you see how all over the place he was , how little coordination or timing was there , and blowing for tugs after two rounds ? The inactivity , wear n year and injuries are just far to much and were all there below the facade of the Adonis . Obviously he hoped for a big shot and to find something deep down but it was wishful thinking . It was embarrassing at times and Bellew just sort of shrugged and toyed with him . I’m still not sold on him as a heavy , these fights didn’t answer the questions . I’d like to see him fight the super series winner as they are belting fighters . Overall I feel a bit cheated by Haye there after the build up he sold . Haven’t heard the reaction yet but that must be it.

I felt for Haye because this will truly affect his legacy I think. The nature of this defeat was so emphatic that it could override how he is viewed. For instance in 20 years people will remember Valuev but they'll also remember an emphatic defeat by Klitschko and two defeats to Bellew. Overall, I don't think he'll be remembered as being as good as he was. 

[DavidM]

6 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I felt for Haye because this will truly affect his legacy I think. The nature of this defeat was so emphatic that it could override how he is viewed. For instance in 20 years people will remember Valuev but they'll also remember an emphatic defeat by Klitschko and two defeats to Bellew. Overall, I don't think he'll be remembered as being as good as he was. 

Boxing history can be cruel can’t it . People  think of a fighters last rites , bad loss or latter years and sometimes forget what they were . Look at Michael Spinks or even someone like James Toney who was fearsome 

[Maximus Decimus]

2 hours ago, DavidM said:

Boxing history can be cruel can’t it . People  think of a fighters last rites , bad loss or latter years and sometimes forget what they were . Look at Michael Spinks or even someone like James Toney who was fearsome 

Even Sugar Ray Leonard's record was slightly dimished by his ill fated comeback but at least it could be seen as a past great coming back. Roy Jones Jr is another who was unstoppable but has lessened his legacy greatly by going on way too long. That is what people will remember. 

The nature of Haye's defeats make you question how much he really had it. He wasn't that old when he retired and his comeback was a failure of a man who kept in shape and was still easily young enough to be a competitor. 

[Maximus Decimus]

6 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I can understand this, but even if it is just learning from being told off, it is still good.  And, I very much doubt he was planning what to say when he lost.  

He is also older, it affects us all.

There is of course that. To be fair Bellew was someone who was a bit of an idiot in his younger days but is now quite likeable. I always used to say that he is a top-level Evertonian boxer who was brought up about 8 miles away from me, he should be my favourite boxer but I couldn't stand him for years. 

[bobbruce]

44 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Even Sugar Ray Leonard's record was slightly dimished by his ill fated comeback but at least it could be seen as a past great coming back. Roy Jones Jr is another who was unstoppable but has lessened his legacy greatly by going on way too long. That is what people will remember. 

The nature of Haye's defeats make you question how much he really had it. He wasn't that old when he retired and his comeback was a failure of a man who kept in shape and was still easily young enough to be a competitor. 

The difference with Roy Jones and sugar Ray Leonard is that they were genuine greats of the sport so their legacy can take a few defeats at the end. Were as Haye was never in that bracket to begin with. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Big fight this weekend between Jorge Linares (W44-L3) vs Vasyl Lomachenko (W10-L1) WBA Lightweight World title at Madison Square Garden

A mouthwatering prospect of Linares, a four time three weight World Champion who is probably best known in this country for his two defeats of Anthony Crolla, versus Lomachenko who is considered by many to be the best pound for pound active boxer in the world.  

The Ukrainian who is the WBO Super Featherweight World champion, a double Olympic boxing gold medalist and famously winner of 396 of 397 amateur fights, is moving up a weight to challenge Linares.  

Can’t wait as it could be a great fight.

[Maximus Decimus]

2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Big fight this weekend between Jorge Linares (W44-L3) vs Vasyl Lomachenko (W10-L1) WBA Lightweight World title at Madison Square Garden

A mouthwatering prospect of Linares, a four time three weight World Champion who is probably best known in this country for his two defeats of Anthony Crolla, versus Lomachenko who is considered by many to be the best pound for pound active boxer in the world.  

The Ukrainian who is the WBO Super Featherweight World champion, a double Olympic boxing gold medalist and famously winner of 396 of 397 amateur fights, is moving up a weight to challenge Linares.  

Can’t wait as it could be a great fight.

Completely agree, this feels like a real step up for Loma going in against a real fighter and a big puncher. 

In the post Mayweather/Pacquiao era Lomachenko is being touted as the next big thing and for good reason. He reminds me of Pacquiao, not in his style but in the way he is so different and makes decent opponents look silly. 

For those who don't know who he is, he's a double Olympic gold medalist who only lost once in his amateur career. He has made his last four opponents quit on their stools because they were getting so thoroughly outclassed leading to his nickname Nomaschenko. This includes Rigondeaux, who was seen as something of a legend - in the build up to the McGregor fight there was a bit of speculation about Loma sparring and McGregor said 'I'm more of a Rigondeaux man.' 

The bookies have him as heavy favourite against Linares but many boxers quite fancy Linares as he is a big puncher and naturally heavier. If there is one thing Loma doesn't haven't it is above average power so to win he'll almost certainly have to take him 12 rounds. 

[Maximus Decimus]

 

Here's probably the best example of Lomachenko. Utterly destroys his opponent but doesn't have the power to knock him out, Sosa ends up quitting on his stool. 

[DavidM]

Linares is good , world class ... but Loma is one of those freakish talents you see only a handful of in a generation . He’s took over from Mayweather as P4P already and looks as close to unbeatable as you can . The way he forced Rigo to quit by total humiliation , and the way he talks about fighters not being paid if they don’t try against him tells a story ! They are trying but they just aren’t anywhere close . It’s a step up in weight again but he’s naturally a big guy who boils down and Linares isn’t a massive specimen . I like Linares he’s a gent and a true champ , but I just don’t see anyway he can win against a boxer who is like willo the wisp , always turning , moving , never there to hit but pebbledashes you at will . 

[Maximus Decimus]

18 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Linares is good , world class ... but Loma is one of those freakish talents you see only a handful of in a generation . He’s took over from Mayweather as P4P already and looks as close to unbeatable as you can . The way he forced Rigo to quit by total humiliation , and the way he talks about fighters not being paid if they don’t try against him tells a story ! They are trying but they just aren’t anywhere close . It’s a step up in weight again but he’s naturally a big guy who boils down and Linares isn’t a massive specimen . I like Linares he’s a gent and a true champ , but I just don’t see anyway he can win against a boxer who is like willo the wisp , always turning , moving , never there to hit but pebbledashes you at will . 

He certainly looks like the successor in waiting to the P4P mantle. He's currently only 3rd on both the Ring magazine and Boxrec lists. 

I'm not sure how reliable the Boxrec one is though, it has Canelo as number 1 (despite virtually everyone thinking he lost to GGG in number 4) and Jeff Horn in 9th based on a disputable result against Pacquiao. To put in perspective Ring magazine only has him ranked 5th in the Welterweight division. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

He certainly looks like the successor in waiting to the P4P mantle. He's currently only 3rd on both the Ring magazine and Boxrec lists. 

I'm not sure how reliable the Boxrec one is though, it has Canelo as number 1 (despite virtually everyone thinking he lost to GGG in number 4) and Jeff Horn in 9th based on a disputable result against Pacquiao. To put in perspective Ring magazine only has him ranked 5th in the Welterweight division. 

I think Lomachenko is the most active of all the P4P contenders.

I think this site is a good one for the official rankings: https://www.boxingscene.com/rankings/

[DavidM]

There’s a bit of a love in with Canelo which manifests at certain times . Personally I think  it’s a stain on boxing if he’s at the top of any rankings right now . This is a very dangerous sport to play outside the rules 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, DavidM said:

There’s a bit of a love in with Canelo which manifests at certain times . Personally I think  it’s a stain on boxing if he’s at the top of any rankings right now . This is a very dangerous sport to play outside the rules 

It is and to be honest they don't seem to treat it as seriously as other sports. I get the feeling that because it doesn't have that much of an effect on boxing skill they're more willing to forget about it. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Good display from Hughie Fury

[Gerrumonside ref]

Linares vs Lomachenko

Great fight - was glued to it.

[Maximus Decimus]

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Linares vs Lomachenko

Great fight - was glued to it.

Wow what a fight, demonstrated what I love about boxing. 

Loma was in total control for 6 rounds but one punch and he's on the canvas. He did well to come back but it was pretty even until he managed to stop him.

It'll be interesting to see how Loma is viewed from here. He's just won 3 titles quicker than anyone but that aura of invincibility has gone. Linares had a lot of success and the weight difference looked a definite factor. 

[DavidM]

I thought that was a very interesting enjoyable fight . Technically it doesn’t get much better than that , top quality boxing . I take my hat off to Linares he gave Loma his sternest test and gave it back to him , making it highly competitive . Lot of life left in him . As for Loma it’s a great achievement but I think we’ve seen the limit of his prowess to move up . He looked quite small and often lacking power . It’s much tougher up here and there’s great lightweight / super feather fights against guys like gervonta davis and   Mikey Garcia to push him . He saw though that this boxing game isn’t really a cakewalk !

[Maximus Decimus]

11 hours ago, DavidM said:

I thought that was a very interesting enjoyable fight . Technically it doesn’t get much better than that , top quality boxing . I take my hat off to Linares he gave Loma his sternest test and gave it back to him , making it highly competitive . Lot of life left in him . As for Loma it’s a great achievement but I think we’ve seen the limit of his prowess to move up . He looked quite small and often lacking power . It’s much tougher up here and there’s great lightweight / super feather fights against guys like gervonta davis and   Mikey Garcia to push him . He saw though that this boxing game isn’t really a cakewalk !

Watching it again, it was clear how much homework Linares had done on Loma. He was ready for his footwork and every time he went to switch to the side Linares quickly rotated to negate it. 

That's not to say I think Lomas been found out, far from it. He's an exceptional boxer no matter how you look at it. 

I suspect for the rest of his career we'll see some fights where he dominates and embarrasses his opposition but others where he again meets issues with power. From the knockdown until the knockout he was much more tentative and only just getting back into his stride when he finished him. 

[GeordieSaint]

Thanks GO - excellent fight; really enjoyed it!

[Gerrumonside ref]

I thought Loma controlled the fight from about the 3rd round onwards and was doing the better work until he walked onto that right hand.

Maybe had that happened earlier in the round then Linares could of pressed home his temporary advantage and finished things.

I can only admire Loma’s brilliant footwork that allowed him to slip inside and land combinations of scoring punches whilst getting out of there making a quality operator like Linares almost seem awkward.

The scorecards were interesting: one saw Loma 2 up, one saw Linares 2 up and the other saw it as even.  I guess that’s reflected on the comments in this thread too! ?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Gerrumonside ref

[Maximus Decimus]

2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I thought Loma controlled the fight from about the 3rd round onwards and was doing the better work until he walked onto that right hand.

Maybe had that happened earlier in the round then Linares could of pressed home his temporary advantage and finished things.

I can only admire Loma’s brilliant footwork that allowed him to slip inside and land combinations of scoring punches whilst getting out of there making a quality operator like Linares almost seem awkward.

The scorecards were interesting: one saw Loma 2 up, one saw Linares 2 up and the other saw it as even.  I guess that’s reflected on the comments in this thread too! ?

I think those scores are fair. Personally I thought Loma was 1 or 2 up as he was the one who was forcing the action but it's very subjective and depends what judges prefer.

Although a great shot, it certainly got him out of jail a bit. I can see why Linares would love a rematch, his power against Lomas lack of power was a big factor in the later rounds. 

[DavidM]

Don’t know if anyone saw that the Stevenson v Jack fight . Never been a fan of Ian John-Lewis , very poor official who makes to many mistakes in my opinion , and that reinforced that view . Stevenson was knackered after 6 rounds and held desparately and constantly , but all the ref did was tell him he was holding 20 times without doing anything . Blatant point at least and that would have won Jack the fight . Then IJL got extra fussy and started jumping in every five seconds . Frustrating, especially for Jack . I thought he deserved it but I guess you’ve no chance there