Boxing

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Indeed . There’s three standouts which could give us a golden era of fights , yet they fight everyone and anyone but each other . To often the story of boxing 

It's not just the heavyweights. They were pointing out last week that Crawford basically has no-one to fight (which is why he'll end up fighting Brook). 

There have always been problems but we seem to have boxers unwilling to fight the best or not bothered by world titles. 

[DavidM]

7 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It's not just the heavyweights. They were pointing out last week that Crawford basically has no-one to fight (which is why he'll end up fighting Brook). 

There have always been problems but we seem to have boxers unwilling to fight the best or not bothered by world titles. 

Aye , crazy . That’ll be Crawford in the ultra stacked welterweight division . As we’ve said , tv / promoters / ego / money  etc lock out great matchups 

Edited April 30, 2019 by DavidM

[Maximus Decimus]

26 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Aye , crazy . That’ll be Crawford in the ultra stacked welterweight division . As we’ve said , tv / promoters / ego / money  etc lock out great matchups 

Hopefully there'll be a monopoly soon and one network ties up all the main players. 

Can't see it. 

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Hopefully there'll be a monopoly soon and one network ties up all the main players. 

Can't see it. 

Interesting , Barry Hearn was talking yesterday about a ‘ fight to the death ‘ between TV companies . Just so many vested interests in boxing now , often pulling in different directions . Fans are the cash cows but not always at the top of the list , despite talk to the contrary . And it’s always the other guys fault when  it doesn’t happen ...

Edited April 30, 2019 by DavidM

[Futtocks]

10 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Hopefully there'll be a monopoly soon and one network ties up all the main players. 

Can't see it. 

Boxing has made many fortunes out of the fragmented and unsatisfying nature of "world" championships for decades. It would take some sort of unprecedented crisis for the various players to come together. 

[Maximus Decimus]

3 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Boxing has made many fortunes out of the fragmented and unsatisfying nature of "world" championships for decades. It would take some sort of unprecedented crisis for the various players to come together. 

I still don't think they would. 

In the US there is already a crisis and they're losing ground to UFC all the time. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 hours ago, Futtocks said:

I assume this is a different Hearn to the One True Messiah who will deliver utter fantabulosity to Rugby League?

I will always think Rugby League missed an opportunity there.

But I don’t want to derail the boxing thread.

It really is difficult to argue with Hearn’s record as a boxing promoter.

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I still don't think they would. 

In the US there is already a crisis and they're losing ground to UFC all the time. 

Strange though given the obvious inferiority of the product that UFC produces from a technical perspective.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, Futtocks said:

Boxing has made many fortunes out of the fragmented and unsatisfying nature of "world" championships for decades. It would take some sort of unprecedented crisis for the various players to come together. 

It’ll never happen and in all fairness these guys are literally risking their lives and deserve to hold out for the biggest purses possible.

[Maximus Decimus]

10 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Strange though given the obvious inferiority of the product that UFC produces from a technical perspective.

If we had one body with one belt that guaranteed the best fight the best, boxing would still be up against it I think.

The fact that there aren't and they aren't is very damaging. 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

If we had one body with one belt that guaranteed the best fight the best, boxing would still be up against it I think.

The fact that there aren't and they aren't is very damaging. 

 

It’ll never happen in boxing and I’m not even sure it’s desirable.  

The boxers are obviously doing something extremely dangerous every time they step in the ring.

They will always look to maximise their earnings.

[DavidM]

People are getting heartily fed up with ... i’ll get through this and it’s the big fight . After this and we’re on course ... over n over . I want it but ...

[Maximus Decimus]

On 01/05/2019 at 08:45, Gerrumonside ref said:

It’ll never happen in boxing and I’m not even sure it’s desirable.  

The boxers are obviously doing something extremely dangerous every time they step in the ring.

They will always look to maximise their earnings.

Whilst this is true, it is very much short term benefit for individuals over the long term health of the sport.

Fighters have always been selective and ducked certain other fighters but I think we've reached a point where this has become an existential problem for the sport for 3 reasons:

1) it has become more prevalent and complicated by networks.

2) social media has made fans and the public far more aware of how fighters are ducking. 

3) a different combat sport ensures the best fight the best without almost any bullsh*t. 

[Maximus Decimus]

Canelo-Jacobs tonight. Consensus seems to be that it's a 50/50 fight that Canelo will win. 

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Canelo-Jacobs tonight. Consensus seems to be that it's a 50/50 fight that Canelo will win. 

I can’t see anyway it’s a 50/50 fight tbh , Canelo is chiselled out of granite . I’m not his biggest fan , he’s been well looked after in Vegas and his failed drugs tests led to no more than minimal punishment being Canelo . I’m rooting big style for  Jacobs , what he’s came through is literally unbelievable , even after surviving cancer they thought he wouldn’t walk . Nice guy , big inspiration . I thought he beat Golovkin so all the best to him here

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Whilst this is true, it is very much short term benefit for individuals over the long term health of the sport.

Fighters have always been selective and ducked certain other fighters but I think we've reached a point where this has become an existential problem for the sport for 3 reasons:

1) it has become more prevalent and complicated by networks.

2) social media has made fans and the public far more aware of how fighters are ducking. 

3) a different combat sport ensures the best fight the best without almost any bullsh*t. 

I think you’re in for a lifelong disappointment.

i know you’re a big Anthony Joshua fan who feels that Deontay Wilder should be forced in some way to fight him.

But it really is the prerogative of the people who are literally laying their lives on the line when they get in that ring.

If Wilder wants to hold out for the biggest purse possible that seems entirely reasonable to me.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Gerrumonside ref

[johnmatrix]

If the fighters had it there way I'm sure the biggest fights would occur, but it's the promoters and the net works who think a fighter who loses is unmarketable, when in reality if you've been in a top fight and lose you get a lot of credit from the public.

See canelo won, not unexpected if course, which fighters can beat him?  His promoters aren't daft so they'll do another fight with GGG, andrade is awkward so I expect them to avoid him just like they did with BJ Saunders.

[Maximus Decimus]

12 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think you’re in for a lifelong disappointment.

i know you’re a big Anthony Joshua fan who feels that Deontay Wilder should be forced in some way to fight him.

But it really is the prerogative of the people who are literally laying their lives on the line when they get in that ring.

If Wilder wants to hold out for the biggest purse possible that seems entirely reasonable to me.

You're wrong I'm a boxing fan who can see the rather obvious point that the sport is killing itself by its inability to get the best fighting the best.

Wilder can do what he pleases and fight who he wants but if he's not going to even try to fight the best then he shouldn't have a belt or a claim to be the best. 

UFC fighters also put their lives on the line when they fight, yet they somehow manage to ensure the top fighters face each other for an amount of money most us could only dream of. 

That seems entirely reasonable to me. 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, johnmatrix said:

If the fighters had it there way I'm sure the biggest fights would occur, but it's the promoters and the net works who think a fighter who loses is unmarketable, when in reality if you've been in a top fight and lose you get a lot of credit from the public.

See canelo won, not unexpected if course, which fighters can beat him?  His promoters aren't daft so they'll do another fight with GGG, andrade is awkward so I expect them to avoid him just like they did with BJ Saunders.

You've definitely hit the nail on the head here, the obsession with the zero is hurting the sport too. Again looking to the UFC, it didn't affect McGregor's rise one bit that he had already lost a few times.

I watched Canelo-Jacobs and for once thought the decision was spot on. The fight never quite got going but Canelo always looked more in control. Jacobs had a good couple of rounds, including the best single shot, but it never looked like he could hurt Canelo. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

45 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You're wrong I'm a boxing fan who can see the rather obvious point that the sport is killing itself by its inability to get the best fighting the best.

Wilder can do what he pleases and fight who he wants but if he's not going to even try to fight the best then he shouldn't have a belt or a claim to be the best. 

UFC fighters also put their lives on the line when they fight, yet they somehow manage to ensure the top fighters face each other for an amount of money most us could only dream of. 

That seems entirely reasonable to me. 

Is the sport killing itself?  

I can’t remember more huge stadium fights than we have seen in the last five years in boxing or PPVs?  

I know you are frustrated about the Joshua-Wilder situation, but it isn’t abnormal in the history of boxing for one man to look for the best purse possible before putting belt and body on the line.

As for the inferior UFC product, as far I can see they had a stable of relatively unknown mixed discipline fighter in terms of the general public and had therefore no choice but to go down the path they have.  Only Conor McGregor can claim to have broken the mainstream sporting consciousness and virtually as soon as he could he also chased the money (i.e. a fight with Mayweather).

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Is the sport killing itself?  

I can’t remember more huge stadium fights than we have seen in the last five years in boxing or PPVs?  

I know you are frustrated about the Joshua-Wilder situation, but it isn’t abnormal in the history of boxing for one man to look for the best purse possible before putting belt and body on the line.

As for the inferior UFC product, as far I can see they had a stable of relatively unknown mixed discipline fighter in terms of the general public and had therefore no choice but to go down the path they have.  Only Conor McGregor can claim to have broken the mainstream sporting consciousness and virtually as soon as he could he also chased the money (i.e. a fight with Mayweather).

Boxing in the UK is doing very well, boxing in the US is dying a not-so-slow death.

As I said earlier, of course fighters have always picked who they fought but the Internet has made the general public far more aware of this. Wilder isn't just holding out for a payday (he turned down $100m) he probably doesn't want to have the fight. The fact that he has done so while making out that AJ is  coward leaves a bitter taste. 

There is a very good chance that this fight will never happen. The public aren't interested in fighters making as much money as they can, they want to see the best fight the best. Because it doesn't happen, in the US they've turned to UFC where it does. The same will happen over here.

Despite an inferior product, it has overtaken boxing in the US in about 15 years. For some perspective, the biggest boxing PPV got 1m buys last year, Khabib-McGregor got 2.5m. Wilder-Fury did just over 10% that figure. Polling figures show that MMA is more popular amongst younger people. 

As MMA is a new sport, they have sensibly not gone down the same route as boxing but opted for much tighter central control. Don't get me wrong, the McGregor situation suggests they'll face problems in future when one fighter gets bigger than the company and is able to call the shots.

There are some problems that seem inherit to combat sports, but boxing has itself a situation where it increasingly can't control them. 

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Boxing in the UK is doing very well, boxing in the US is dying a not-so-slow death.

As I said earlier, of course fighters have always picked who they fought but the Internet has made the general public far more aware of this. Wilder isn't just holding out for a payday (he turned down $100m) he probably doesn't want to have the fight. The fact that he has done so while making out that AJ is  coward leaves a bitter taste. 

There is a very good chance that this fight will never happen. The public aren't interested in fighters making as much money as they can, they want to see the best fight the best. Because it doesn't happen, in the US they've turned to UFC where it does. The same will happen over here.

Despite an inferior product, it has overtaken boxing in the US in about 15 years. For some perspective, the biggest boxing PPV got 1m buys last year, Khabib-McGregor got 2.5m. Wilder-Fury did just over 10% that figure. Polling figures show that MMA is more popular amongst younger people. 

As MMA is a new sport, they have sensibly not gone down the same route as boxing but opted for much tighter central control. Don't get me wrong, the McGregor situation suggests they'll face problems in future when one fighter gets bigger than the company and is able to call the shots.

There are some problems that seem inherit to combat sports, but boxing has itself a situation where it increasingly can't control them. 

 

 

I agree with much of that especially your conclusion that MMA could face the same problem over time if the fighters eventually transcend the sport.

I think boxing’s biggest problem in the United States over the last 30 years has been the huge growth in financial reward for the other professional sports such as the NFL and the NBA hoovering up the best physical specimens.

If you were an aspiring young athlete now in that country, you would probably exhaust other possibilities before turning to a much more dangerous pursuit like boxing.

Doesn’t help as well that the story of unscrupulous promotion even for the best fighters in the USA from the 1980s onwards (although it’s always been there) is a story well told.  Basically if you thought you could go from rags to riches to rags so quickly with the risk of brain damage too, you might think twice about even going down that road.

 

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I agree with much of that especially your conclusion that MMA could face the same problem over time if the fighters eventually transcend the sport.

I think boxing’s biggest problem in the United States over the last 30 years has been the huge growth in financial reward for the other professional sports such as the NFL and the NBA hoovering up the best physical specimens.

If you were an aspiring young athlete now in that country, you would probably exhaust other possibilities before turning to a much more dangerous pursuit like boxing.

Doesn’t help as well that the story of unscrupulous promotion even for the best fighters in the USA from the 1980s onwards (although it’s always been there) is a story well told.  Basically if you thought you could go from rags to riches to rags so quickly with the risk of brain damage too, you might think twice about even going down that road.

 

Of course this is true. It is still the most lucrative sport but there are other much less dangerous avenues too. 

I don't want to bang on about MMA too much but boxing's problems weren't so big a deal because they had the monopoly on the fight game. If you enjoyed seeing people fight, you watched boxing. The sport still benefits from a legacy today of fighters that transcended culture such as Ali, Tyson, Sugar Ray, the Rocky films etc

However, MMA has allowed another avenue for people who enjoy watching fighting. Not only is it seen as more akin to an authentic fight, it has seemingly corrected many of the problems of boxing.

If you were a young fighter today and were looking at the two disciplines I can see why you'd choose UFC. 

[DavidM]

Jacobs would  have won that if he’d turned up in the first half . Canelo starts strong but can diminish . If a guy can keep his pace from minute one he’s not invincible 

[Maximus Decimus]

4 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Jacobs would  have won that if he’d turned up in the first half . Canelo starts strong but can diminish . If a guy can keep his pace from minute one he’s not invincible 

I agree, he's obviously very good but I'm not sure he's poster boy of the sport sort of stuff.