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1 hour ago, johnmatrix said:

If the fighters had it there way I'm sure the biggest fights would occur, but it's the promoters and the net works who think a fighter who loses is unmarketable, when in reality if you've been in a top fight and lose you get a lot of credit from the public.

See canelo won, not unexpected if course, which fighters can beat him?  His promoters aren't daft so they'll do another fight with GGG, andrade is awkward so I expect them to avoid him just like they did with BJ Saunders.

You've definitely hit the nail on the head here, the obsession with the zero is hurting the sport too. Again looking to the UFC, it didn't affect McGregor's rise one bit that he had already lost a few times.

I watched Canelo-Jacobs and for once thought the decision was spot on. The fight never quite got going but Canelo always looked more in control. Jacobs had a good couple of rounds, including the best single shot, but it never looked like he could hurt Canelo. 

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45 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You're wrong I'm a boxing fan who can see the rather obvious point that the sport is killing itself by its inability to get the best fighting the best.

Wilder can do what he pleases and fight who he wants but if he's not going to even try to fight the best then he shouldn't have a belt or a claim to be the best. 

UFC fighters also put their lives on the line when they fight, yet they somehow manage to ensure the top fighters face each other for an amount of money most us could only dream of. 

That seems entirely reasonable to me. 

Is the sport killing itself?  

I can’t remember more huge stadium fights than we have seen in the last five years in boxing or PPVs?  

I know you are frustrated about the Joshua-Wilder situation, but it isn’t abnormal in the history of boxing for one man to look for the best purse possible before putting belt and body on the line.

As for the inferior UFC product, as far I can see they had a stable of relatively unknown mixed discipline fighter in terms of the general public and had therefore no choice but to go down the path they have.  Only Conor McGregor can claim to have broken the mainstream sporting consciousness and virtually as soon as he could he also chased the money (i.e. a fight with Mayweather).

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1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Is the sport killing itself?  

I can’t remember more huge stadium fights than we have seen in the last five years in boxing or PPVs?  

I know you are frustrated about the Joshua-Wilder situation, but it isn’t abnormal in the history of boxing for one man to look for the best purse possible before putting belt and body on the line.

As for the inferior UFC product, as far I can see they had a stable of relatively unknown mixed discipline fighter in terms of the general public and had therefore no choice but to go down the path they have.  Only Conor McGregor can claim to have broken the mainstream sporting consciousness and virtually as soon as he could he also chased the money (i.e. a fight with Mayweather).

Boxing in the UK is doing very well, boxing in the US is dying a not-so-slow death.

As I said earlier, of course fighters have always picked who they fought but the Internet has made the general public far more aware of this. Wilder isn't just holding out for a payday (he turned down $100m) he probably doesn't want to have the fight. The fact that he has done so while making out that AJ is  coward leaves a bitter taste. 

There is a very good chance that this fight will never happen. The public aren't interested in fighters making as much money as they can, they want to see the best fight the best. Because it doesn't happen, in the US they've turned to UFC where it does. The same will happen over here.

Despite an inferior product, it has overtaken boxing in the US in about 15 years. For some perspective, the biggest boxing PPV got 1m buys last year, Khabib-McGregor got 2.5m. Wilder-Fury did just over 10% that figure. Polling figures show that MMA is more popular amongst younger people. 

As MMA is a new sport, they have sensibly not gone down the same route as boxing but opted for much tighter central control. Don't get me wrong, the McGregor situation suggests they'll face problems in future when one fighter gets bigger than the company and is able to call the shots.

There are some problems that seem inherit to combat sports, but boxing has itself a situation where it increasingly can't control them. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Boxing in the UK is doing very well, boxing in the US is dying a not-so-slow death.

As I said earlier, of course fighters have always picked who they fought but the Internet has made the general public far more aware of this. Wilder isn't just holding out for a payday (he turned down $100m) he probably doesn't want to have the fight. The fact that he has done so while making out that AJ is  coward leaves a bitter taste. 

There is a very good chance that this fight will never happen. The public aren't interested in fighters making as much money as they can, they want to see the best fight the best. Because it doesn't happen, in the US they've turned to UFC where it does. The same will happen over here.

Despite an inferior product, it has overtaken boxing in the US in about 15 years. For some perspective, the biggest boxing PPV got 1m buys last year, Khabib-McGregor got 2.5m. Wilder-Fury did just over 10% that figure. Polling figures show that MMA is more popular amongst younger people. 

As MMA is a new sport, they have sensibly not gone down the same route as boxing but opted for much tighter central control. Don't get me wrong, the McGregor situation suggests they'll face problems in future when one fighter gets bigger than the company and is able to call the shots.

There are some problems that seem inherit to combat sports, but boxing has itself a situation where it increasingly can't control them. 

 

 

I agree with much of that especially your conclusion that MMA could face the same problem over time if the fighters eventually transcend the sport.

I think boxing’s biggest problem in the United States over the last 30 years has been the huge growth in financial reward for the other professional sports such as the NFL and the NBA hoovering up the best physical specimens.

If you were an aspiring young athlete now in that country, you would probably exhaust other possibilities before turning to a much more dangerous pursuit like boxing.

Doesn’t help as well that the story of unscrupulous promotion even for the best fighters in the USA from the 1980s onwards (although it’s always been there) is a story well told.  Basically if you thought you could go from rags to riches to rags so quickly with the risk of brain damage too, you might think twice about even going down that road.

 

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2 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I agree with much of that especially your conclusion that MMA could face the same problem over time if the fighters eventually transcend the sport.

I think boxing’s biggest problem in the United States over the last 30 years has been the huge growth in financial reward for the other professional sports such as the NFL and the NBA hoovering up the best physical specimens.

If you were an aspiring young athlete now in that country, you would probably exhaust other possibilities before turning to a much more dangerous pursuit like boxing.

Doesn’t help as well that the story of unscrupulous promotion even for the best fighters in the USA from the 1980s onwards (although it’s always been there) is a story well told.  Basically if you thought you could go from rags to riches to rags so quickly with the risk of brain damage too, you might think twice about even going down that road.

 

Of course this is true. It is still the most lucrative sport but there are other much less dangerous avenues too. 

I don't want to bang on about MMA too much but boxing's problems weren't so big a deal because they had the monopoly on the fight game. If you enjoyed seeing people fight, you watched boxing. The sport still benefits from a legacy today of fighters that transcended culture such as Ali, Tyson, Sugar Ray, the Rocky films etc

However, MMA has allowed another avenue for people who enjoy watching fighting. Not only is it seen as more akin to an authentic fight, it has seemingly corrected many of the problems of boxing.

If you were a young fighter today and were looking at the two disciplines I can see why you'd choose UFC. 

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Jacobs would  have won that if he’d turned up in the first half . Canelo starts strong but can diminish . If a guy can keep his pace from minute one he’s not invincible 

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4 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Jacobs would  have won that if he’d turned up in the first half . Canelo starts strong but can diminish . If a guy can keep his pace from minute one he’s not invincible 

I agree, he's obviously very good but I'm not sure he's poster boy of the sport sort of stuff. 

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Looks like Wilder will fight Ortiz (again) next.  Probably why Ortiz turned down Joshua.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Wilder result was to be expected, shame theyve ducked dillian Whyte as I think he gives wilder a few problems, still think wilder Kos him.

Inoue on the wbss was frightening again, know wonder people avoid him to destroy a world champ like that. Superb. 

Taylor had a good points win and him prograis will be a cracking fight in the final and will prove who the best is at super lightweight. 

The Saunders fight was a masterclass over a poor opponent, although he got tagged and shook up on rd6 it was all one way traffic. Really hope he gets the Callum Smith fight as that would be a terrific match up.

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4 minutes ago, johnmatrix said:

Wilder result was to be expected, shame theyve ducked dillian Whyte as I think he gives wilder a few problems, still think wilder Kos him.

Inoue on the wbss was frightening again, know wonder people avoid him to destroy a world champ like that. Superb. 

Taylor had a good points win and him prograis will be a cracking fight in the final and will prove who the best is at super lightweight. 

The Saunders fight was a masterclass over a poor opponent, although he got tagged and shook up on rd6 it was all one way traffic. Really hope he gets the Callum Smith fight as that would be a terrific match up.

Agree with this, Saunders was something like 50-1 on so when he got rocked more than a few people were surprised.

What little I saw, Wilder came out looking for a KO (possibly because of the bad blood) and Breazeale tried to fight fire with fire. It was never gonna end well.

Inoue is a monster with similar scary one shot power. 

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KWell no one saw that coming! Might be good for AJ and lower expectations while forcing him to address some home truths.

The only thing I can compare it to is Khan vs Prescott. It was an embarrassing failure for Khan but he'd been floored by poor fighters before and there were signs. He used it to reinvent himself and have a great career.

There have been signs with AJ before, he's been caught a number of times (Klitschko, Whyte, Povetkin) and not been dominating like he once did. He's also gassed out massively which he did again last night.

His heart will be attacked after last night I think which will be hard to shake off, but this could be a boost to the HW division. AJ hasn't become a bad fighter overnight and it might increase the likelihood of some of those bigger fights. 

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I blame Drake.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Very very poor indeed . Apart from the knockdown he looked timid , stiff and bemused . He just hardly done anything . Why is he on the back foot from the start ? He should be controlling that easily but gave up every natural advantage . That punch resistance is a worry and it just scrambled him after that . Very wary and looked totally gassed . Well done Ruiz but he’s not Mike Tyson , worrying he bullied AJ so much . No way that should happen . He just looked mentally all wrong and unable completely to adapt . Very disappointing 

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AJ still has a lot of work to do. He has had such an accelerated path to the top, often winning due to his superior physical attributes, that he is missing some core boxing skills. Also I think his training and training camp needs to change somewhat. Yes he looks in great physical condition but is it the best conditioning for a boxer? There is something spectacularly wrong when he looks so tired and gassed compared to a very out of shape fighter who had only taken a fight at 6 weeks notice.

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6 hours ago, Damien said:

AJ still has a lot of work to do. He has had such an accelerated path to the top, often winning due to his superior physical attributes, that he is missing some core boxing skills. Also I think his training and training camp needs to change somewhat. Yes he looks in great physical condition but is it the best conditioning for a boxer? There is something spectacularly wrong when he looks so tired and gassed compared to a very out of shape fighter who had only taken a fight at 6 weeks notice.

Spot on. This is where I think he needs to treat it like Khan did with Prescott and go back to square one in many ways, recognise his limitations and reassess the direction he's gone in. 

There is no reason for this to be the end of AJ. Lennox Lewis and Klitschko both suffered embarrassing losses but went onto dominate. Klitschko is probably the better example in that people were always aware he had a suspect chin but he adapted his style. 

That's not to say it necessarily won't be. The manner of his defeat was bad, especially the way he quit. My fear is that it's business as usual and he steamrollers Ruiz and another couple of 'poorer' fighters, before getting embarrassed again by one of the bigger fighters. 

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The one word reflecting on last night I keep coming back to is “ bizarre “ . The whole thing was just strange . David Haye said he got bullied by a six foot heavyweight who’s “ completely obese “ , and from minute one Paulie pointed out he was on the back foot for some reason . Apart from the knockdown he just looked timid , reactive , wary and uncoordinated . Physically and mentally all over the place and Ruiz had it his own way ... he took zero initiative . He should have controlled that fight easily behind the jab . He was even half crouching down himself . Three times he asked McCracken what shot he’d been hit with , and gave out some bizarre smiles like it was all no big deal .  Then at the end he spits the gum shield , wanders back and has a lean on the ropes like he’s a thousand miles away . Bit concerning really . And afterwards it’s a minor setback and he’s all chilled . Very very bizarre. I’m not having he’s that bad or , or limited or has been exposed. Look at his record and who he’s beat . It was too bad to be true , Ruiz is good no more than that .  The reasons ? Who knows . Bizarre  . That temple  shot straight after the knockdown may have just sent him to Disneyland , who knows

Edited by DavidM

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8 minutes ago, DavidM said:

The one word reflecting on last night I keep coming back to is “ bizarre “ . The whole thing was just strange . David Haye said he got bullied by a six foot heavyweight who’s “ completely obese “ , and from minute one Paulie pointed out he was on the back foot for some reason . Apart from the knockdown he just looked timid , reactive , wary and uncoordinated . Physically and mentally all over the place and Ruiz had it his own way ... he took zero initiative . He should have controlled that fight easily behind the jab . He was even half crouching down himself . Three times he asked McCracken what shot he’d been hit with , and gave out some bizarre smiles like it was all no big deal .  Then at the end he spits the gum shield , wanders back and has a lean on the ropes like he’s a thousand miles away . Bit concerning really . And afterwards it’s a minor setback and he’s all chilled . Very very bizarre. I’m not having he’s that bad or , or limited or has been exposed. Look at his record and who he’s beat . It was too bad to be true , Ruiz is good no more than that .  The reasons ? Who knows . Bizarre  . That temple  shot straight after the knockdown may have just sent him to Disneyland , who knows

I’ve heard that before from boxers that if you get knocked out on the chin provided you best the count your head can clear quite quickly. If you get hit around the top of the head even you get up your head never really unscrambles. 

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40 minutes ago, DavidM said:

The one word reflecting on last night I keep coming back to is “ bizarre “ . The whole thing was just strange . David Haye said he got bullied by a six foot heavyweight who’s “ completely obese “ , and from minute one Paulie pointed out he was on the back foot for some reason . Apart from the knockdown he just looked timid , reactive , wary and uncoordinated . Physically and mentally all over the place and Ruiz had it his own way ... he took zero initiative . He should have controlled that fight easily behind the jab . He was even half crouching down himself . Three times he asked McCracken what shot he’d been hit with , and gave out some bizarre smiles like it was all no big deal .  Then at the end he spits the gum shield , wanders back and has a lean on the ropes like he’s a thousand miles away . Bit concerning really . And afterwards it’s a minor setback and he’s all chilled . Very very bizarre. I’m not having he’s that bad or , or limited or has been exposed. Look at his record and who he’s beat . It was too bad to be true , Ruiz is good no more than that .  The reasons ? Who knows . Bizarre  . That temple  shot straight after the knockdown may have just sent him to Disneyland , who knows

I agree, especially regarding the way he has reacted to it: he almost seems relieved.

There has been an awful lot of hyperbole about what it means and you are right, it doesn't undo what he has achieved previously. He hasn't become a bad fighter overnight. One of the reasons I dislike the obsession with the zero is that it presumes that to be the best you have to be able to beat everybody; we don't expect football or rugby champions to win every game. It also doesn't follow that beating one fighter in a more impressive fashion than another means they're better.

Everybody was raving about Lomachenko after his victory over Linares, where he was knocked down but came back and won in the 11th. Not many people are aware that Linares was knocked out in 1 round in his next fight by a guy who'd lost 7 times. Boxing just doesn't work that way.

It looks likely that Joshua struggled mentally last night. Whether it was fighting in the US, underestimating Ruiz, feeling pressure after Wilder's 1st round knockout or what he didn't seem right. This isn't to make an excuse, Ruiz's one loss is to Parker who was dealt with relatively easily by AJ and who subsequently lost to Whyte who AJ also knocked out. This prevents it from being some grand exposure of a fraud.

It has however exposed some issues that AJ will have to overcome. His chin now looks suspect as does his boxing IQ; he also clearly has issues with his stamina. It was mentioned that when Douglas beat Tyson people knew that they had to get past the onslaught and they could beat him; the same could be said of AJ now. I think it also raises questions about how they've tried to tame him into this model boxer and how it has actually made him worse.

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It's been interesting how different fighters have reacted to it.

AJ has certainly handled it very well and respectfully which is only right. Making excuses never works well, just look at Haye and Lewis after he was very lucky against Vitali.

Tyson Fury has done the decent thing and replied respectfully, not gloating over it. Wilder however has shown himself to be the classless individual that he is, using it to point out that he was never really a champion and that it somehow proves he was the one ducking etc. People in glass houses and all that; it was very nearly him suffering the embarrassing defeat against Ortiz.

What has been overlooked a bit is the reaction of Dillian White, who simply posted a video of the drugs don't work by the Verve. He should be careful, could easily find himself sued. 

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16 hours ago, DavidM said:

The one word reflecting on last night I keep coming back to is “ bizarre “ . The whole thing was just strange . David Haye said he got bullied by a six foot heavyweight who’s “ completely obese “ , and from minute one Paulie pointed out he was on the back foot for some reason . Apart from the knockdown he just looked timid , reactive , wary and uncoordinated . Physically and mentally all over the place and Ruiz had it his own way ... he took zero initiative . He should have controlled that fight easily behind the jab . He was even half crouching down himself . Three times he asked McCracken what shot he’d been hit with , and gave out some bizarre smiles like it was all no big deal .  Then at the end he spits the gum shield , wanders back and has a lean on the ropes like he’s a thousand miles away . Bit concerning really . And afterwards it’s a minor setback and he’s all chilled . Very very bizarre. I’m not having he’s that bad or , or limited or has been exposed. Look at his record and who he’s beat . It was too bad to be true , Ruiz is good no more than that .  The reasons ? Who knows . Bizarre  . That temple  shot straight after the knockdown may have just sent him to Disneyland , who knows

Watching the fight in full, I do think the 3rd round shot had a big effect. He started pretty cautiously, as he has in recent fights but from that moment he looked disorientated; I suspect he was concussed. It struck me as odd that for the next 3 rounds he kept asking in the corner which shot it was that got him. 

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Comforting to see the real Tyson Fury has come out to play .... Big Josh is a disgrace and if that’d happened to him he’d never show his face in public again . A chiselled Adonis losing to ‘ a fat guy who’s ate  every snickers in California ‘ . Interesting discussion I heard that maybe all the talk of physique was the wrong way round and it’s Josh the bodybuilder who’s not built for it and Ruiz who is as a boxer ?

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3 hours ago, DavidM said:

Comforting to see the real Tyson Fury has come out to play .... Big Josh is a disgrace and if that’d happened to him he’d never show his face in public again . A chiselled Adonis losing to ‘ a fat guy who’s ate  every snickers in California ‘ . Interesting discussion I heard that maybe all the talk of physique was the wrong way round and it’s Josh the bodybuilder who’s not built for it and Ruiz who is as a boxer ?

I honestly don't think he knows what he says one minute to the next. I heard an interview today where he was saying it's not about body shape and using himself as proof. He was quite respectful and saying that Ruiz's style is just all wrong for Joshua.

Wilder and Fury both seem to be guilty of throwing stones in glass houses too. Fury was put on his a*se by an aging Cruiserweight and Wilder was nearly stopped by a 40 year old. 

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