Attendances

[Maximus Decimus]

27 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

People can easily tell the difference what the hell are you talking about? The only people that can't tell the difference are non sports fans.

I've taken people to RL games who still couldn't tell you the difference. Pretty much all of my friends and my wife's family are non-RL fans so I've had this many many times. 

To emphasise the point, I have a friend from Widnes who studied in the South of France and tried to tell me he'd been watching RL over there. It was only after a couple of questions I realised he'd been watching RU. 

To the general public who are not followers of either code they are very similar looking games. There are long passages of play that have only very minor (yet fundamental) differences. 

I prefer League to Union and find much of Union frustrating mainly because I'm a RL fan. However to state one is terrible and one is great is just bravado and illogical imo. 

[Tre Cool]

6 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I've taken people to RL games who still couldn't tell you the difference. Pretty much all of my friends and my wife's family are non-RL fans so I've had this many many times. 

To emphasise the point, I have a friend from Widnes who studied in the South of France and tried to tell me he'd been watching RL over there. It was only after a couple of questions I realised he'd been watching RU. 

To the general public who are not followers of either code they are very similar looking games. There are long passages of play that have only very minor (yet fundamental) differences. 

I prefer League to Union and find much of Union frustrating mainly because I'm a RL fan. However to state one is terrible and one is great is just bravado and illogical imo. 

Bravado? How is it bravado?  One is open, fast and entertaining with lots of ball playing and tries. One is turgid, slow, penalty ridden, ugly, confusing and messy. Sure it's an opinion but it's not bravado or illogical just cos you want it to be.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Tre Cool said:

Bravado? How is it bravado?  One is open, fast and entertaining with lots of ball playing and tries. One is turgid, slow, penalty ridden, ugly, confusing and messy. Sure it's an opinion but it's not bravado or illogical just cos you want it to be.

Yet, most people in this country would struggle to tell the difference. 

[Tre Cool]

Just now, Bob8 said:

Yet, most people in this country would struggle to tell the difference. 

That's complete rubbish.  There's an eastern European lad at work who has no interest in rugby who says he can tell the difference in about 30 seconds when it comes on tv.  

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Tre Cool said:

That's complete rubbish.  There's an eastern European lad at work who has no interest in rugby who says he can tell the difference in about 30 seconds when it comes on tv.  

I did not say that the eastern European lad at work could not.

I can certainly tell you about RU fans who would explain to me why the rugby they were watching was so much better than league, once I had lied and told them it was union. 

[dixiedean]

32 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Yep Coventry and the Warwickshire has been a hotbed for Rugby Union for many years. It probably has more Rugby Union clubs than anywhere else in the country. Coventry was a giant of the game and the biggest club in the sport in the 60s/70s. All of this is likely one of the reasons Wasps relocated here. 

RU is largely as geographical as RL and struggles with expansion too. 

This is a point RL fans often don't get.  Midlands east of Brum, the SW, SW London, and Northumberland are RU heartlands. All teams outside these areas have been unsuccessful in drawing support.

Sale and Saracens (both near big conurbations) and Worcester (SW?) are the exceptions.

Not convinced? Look at the RU teams outside these areas who have been in the top division and where they are playing now (if at all).

There are NO pro RU clubs east of Bedford. None south of there and east of Brsitol outside of west London, (apart from London Irish who are moving back).

One in the NE. One in the NW. Three strugglers in Yorkshire. 

Other than that it is SW, East Midlands and W London.

It is a regional game, in the main...just like ours.

[Gerrumonside ref]

44 minutes ago, MustardBoy said:

I know what you mean, but Bolton is purely the venue, it doesn't matter if any locals attend or not. It's out of town for starters.

Manchester Storm Ice Hockey attracted 17,000 crowds? That shouldn't have been possible, and is probably as impressive as TWP and their hugely promoted franchise. I was too young at the time during the Storm phenomena, but I don't recall anybody ever mentioning Ice Hockey that I've met. There's obviously some room for new teams and sports.

Using the alternative sports as competition logic, why start RL franchises in North America? Is Toronto such a sporting black hole that their populace is craving more pro sports teams? Or is it fine as long as you chuck money at it, and promote it to death?

New York has a full hit of cash rich teams of various codes, why do people think will RL take off there if there's every other sport imaginable? Purely because of the population, because it's a big city? I'm genuinely curious as to why? Is it purely money, is that what it's all about?

 

Worth noting here that the Manchester Storm Ice Hockey team also went bust and have never recaptured those dizzying heights.  I also remember the Manchester Spartans and Manchester Allstars British American Football Teams.  In fact I watched the Manchester Allstars play the London Ravens at Loftus Rd in front of around 13k people in the Budweiser Bowl in the 1980s as a young lad thinking it was the future, but it wasn’t.  Neither were the London Monarchs or the Scottish Claymores of the later World League (later to become NFL Europe).

It’s not easy to compete against other well established sports teams or sports even if you can ride the crest of a wave of marketing and promotion.  Even the NFL is moving cautiously about relocating a franchise to one of the most international cities in the world in London, despite the NFL’s great record with handling expansion and running a sports league that is sporting envy of the world in terms of commercial success.

In terms of Toronto, the Wolfpack is a fantastic story, but there’s no guarantee that the interest will last and they still have to continue to prove the concept year after year.  I don’t believe Toronto is a sporting black hole - there are going to be other options for people to engage with if they want to including many well established professional sports teams.

 

 

[dixiedean]

Re: Toronto. Yes. Their crowds exceeded expectations. The challenge is maintaining and expanding that. Therefore, I woould be cautious. A Top Four finish with 7k crowds would be a decent achievement for this season. Talk of being in SL next year is premature.

Having said that, and having lived in Canada, much of it IS a summer sporting black hole.

They will watch successful baseball, basketbal, CFL and soccer teams. Not so much when they aren't. None of those sports are heavily played on an amateur or semi-pro  basis, by adults who have left full-time education.

Their sport is hockey and will continue to be.

No reason why RL should not take a place on the step below however.

Particularly as their RU is run by an out-of-touch West Coast Private School elite. Who haven't proved exactly competent at expansion.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, MustardBoy said:

How do you mean Kayakman?

Its a saying we have over here...it is a compliment.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, dixiedean said:

Re: Toronto. Yes. Their crowds exceeded expectations. The challenge is maintaining and expanding that. Therefore, I woould be cautious. A Top Four finish with 7k crowds would be a decent achievement for this season. Talk of being in SL next year is premature.

Having said that, and having lived in Canada, much of it IS a summer sporting black hole.

They will watch successful baseball, basketbal, CFL and soccer teams. Not so much when they aren't. None of those sports are heavily played on an amateur or semi-pro  basis, by adults who have left full-time education.

Their sport is hockey and will continue to be.

No reason why RL should not take a place on the step below however.

Particularly as their RU is run by an out-of-touch West Coast Private School elite. Who haven't proved exactly competent at expansion.

I agree with most of what you have said but I think the crowds will be bigger, around 8500-9000 this year or higher if the weather holds (no overhead cover at Lamport).   Rugby Union is currently in disarray.

[MustardBoy]

21 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Its a saying we have over here...it is a compliment.

That's good, I thought I'd offended yet another forum member. I can see Toronto being huge, I'm sure, a big Metropolitan city vs clubs mainly from towns... I just hope the cash you generate doesn't enable you to overrun the league.

I genuinely think you're a threat, and would hate to see Toronto / NA teams mopping up all the trophies each year. I think it'd be a disaster. Most will shout me down, it's just my opinion,  I've nothing against Canadians or Americans, but Perez  and company will want domination.

Yes, I'm sure RL needs expansion and investment, but this whole scenario worries me.

If NA was to end up with its own league, with 14 big city clubs, winners playing the top teams from Europe / Australasia each year in a Champions League format, that'd be great.

Am I being selfish, paranoid, small minded? I don't know? Please take it as a compliment that I think this way, as I don't see you as a flash in the pan.

 

[rlno1]

The game needs to move from a marginalised sport into a game where the occasional sport fan is interested in watching it, similar to what happened in Aussie rugby league under the Arthurson/Quayle leadership and on the back of the Tina Turner advertising campaign. This market is what the game has lost in Australia since the super league war and something that the game in the UK has struggled with due to history, bigger rival sports, lack of money and media presence. Basically the game has always been marginalised in the UK. The occasional sport fan is what union is now cashing in on.

[dixiedean]

24 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I agree with most of what you have said but I think the crowds will be bigger, around 8500-9000 this year or higher if the weather holds (no overhead cover at Lamport).   Rugby Union is currently in disarray.

7k would be decent...8.5 to 9k excellent. Make the 4, even if every game was lost in the middle 8s. That would be a success. Something to build on. And very;very hard to then argue against a SL place in future. Players and sponsors would be attractred by the prospect.

Go up to SL immediately, and lose every week with a very thin squad would drain enthusiasm. The club isn't currently ready imo. The squad is tiny. It was sold as a 5 year plan. and as one of your fans on here, I hope it doesn't happen too quickly.

Often wonder how much better it may have been if Fulham had scraped 5th in 1981 and had a year to consolidate.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, MustardBoy said:

That's good, I thought I'd offended yet another forum member. I can see Toronto being huge, I'm sure, a big Metropolitan city vs clubs mainly from towns... I just hope the cash you generate doesn't enable you to overrun the league.

I genuinely think you're a threat, and would hate to see Toronto / NA teams mopping up all the trophies each year. I think it'd be a disaster. Most will shout me down, it's just my opinion,  I've nothing against Canadians or Americans, but Perez  and company will want domination.

Yes, I'm sure RL needs expansion and investment, but this whole scenario worries me.

If NA was to end up with its own league, with 14 big city clubs, winners playing the top teams from Europe / Australasia each year in a Champions League format, that'd be great.

Am I being selfish, paranoid, small minded? I don't know? Please take it as a compliment that I think this way, as I don't see you as a flash in the pan.

 

Relax, we are here to stay but its all positive.  I know some traditionalists are very worried and even attacking TWP (literally its fans at Fev)  and its creation, but everything will be fine in the end.

Always remember: "A rising tide lifts all kayaks."

The new perspective that we bring and the new marketing techniques are exactly what League needs at the moment, sometimes a little shakeup and recalculation is good to clean out the old cobwebs and get things growing again. 

At least you are being reasonable (unlike some), we are all on the same side...no worries.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, dixiedean said:

7k would be decent...8.5 to 9k excellent. Make the 4, even if every game was lost in the middle 8s. That would be a success. Something to build on. And very;very hard to then argue against a SL place in future. Players and sponsors would be attractred by the prospect.

Go up to SL immediately, and lose every week with a very thin squad would drain enthusiasm. The club isn't currently ready imo. The squad is tiny. It was sold as a 5 year plan. and as one of your fans on here, I hope it doesn't happen too quickly.

Often wonder how much better it may have been if Fulham had scraped 5th in 1981 and had a year to consolidate.

Here is the problem:

Lets say you have a new race car and are in a big race with all the old pros.   Your just looking to finish and stay out of an accident...but now the race is about half over and you are competitive and in it, others have crashed and are out.   This is your big chance and the pit crew radios you to go for it....you've got lots of fuel, feel good and the car is driving and reacting well...do you play it safe to get the finish or do you go for the win.  I go for the win.

TWP might just be able to get it all this year, the second year of a five year plan.  If we make it we strengthen our squad, the dough and management is clearly there.   I believe the fans are there and will come in increasing numbers.   I think we can do it and the will and the spirit is there to make it last.  Its a great feel and karma on this end.

I don't have enough Rugby League history knowledge to comment on Fulham (sorry).

Time to hit the gas with the Wolfpack!

 

 

[Bob8]

9 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Worth noting here that the Manchester Storm Ice Hockey team also went bust and have never recaptured those dizzying heights.  I also remember the Manchester Spartans and Manchester Allstars British American Football Teams.  In fact I watched the Manchester Allstars play the London Ravens at Loftus Rd in front of around 13k people in the Budweiser Bowl in the 1980s as a young lad thinking it was the future, but it wasn’t.  Neither were the London Monarchs or the Scottish Claymores of the later World League (later to become NFL Europe).

It’s not easy to compete against other well established sports teams or sports even if you can ride the crest of a wave of marketing and promotion.  Even the NFL is moving cautiously about relocating a franchise to one of the most international cities in the world in London, despite the NFL’s great record with handling expansion and running a sports league that is sporting envy of the world in terms of commercial success.

In terms of Toronto, the Wolfpack is a fantastic story, but there’s no guarantee that the interest will last and they still have to continue to prove the concept year after year.  I don’t believe Toronto is a sporting black hole - there are going to be other options for people to engage with if they want to including many well established professional sports teams.

Starting a professional league that is not really established rarely works, so basketball and ice-hockey had those additional challenges.  Nonetheless, greater Manchester is a pretty bad place to start a new sports team, unless you have plenty of experience in Manchester and a good idea of the niche you are targetting.

[Blind side johnny]

15 hours ago, Tre Cool said:

How? What's fashionable about it?

Well, it gets in the papers, on the telly, people know that it is happening, it has the sense of being something to attend. That's what fashionable means.

 

HTH

[Tre Cool]

10 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Well, it gets in the papers, on the telly, people know that it is happening, it has the sense of being something to attend. That's what fashionable means.

 

HTH

I don't see much about club RU anywhere.  Certainly not much more than club RL. Most ru "fans" i know only follow internationals.

[ckn]

35 38 posts deleted.  Must be close to a record.

What I deleted:

- posts purely about union with no relevance to rugby
- posts where rugby fans have let out their inner dribbling beastie over union
- posts criticising other members

Why I deleted them:

- It's a rugby league forum, there's a particular cess-pit for genuinely cross-code threads

Why I haven't moved this to the cross-code forum:

- It's a genuinely important subject for rugby league that keeps coming up and comparing what's gone on in rugby union versus rugby league is a fair call.  What isn't a fair call is then going on about union, how great/rubbish they are or anything else that someone couldn't clearly show as rugby league being the subject of the post.

(Edited to delete three more that I missed)

[dixiedean]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Here is the problem:

Lets say you have a new race car and are in a big race with all the old pros.   Your just looking to finish and stay out of an accident...but now the race is about half over and you are competitive and in it, others have crashed and are out.   This is your big chance and the pit crew radios you to go for it....you've got lots of fuel, feel good and the car is driving and reacting well...do you play it safe to get the finish or do you go for the win.  I go for the win.

TWP might just be able to get it all this year, the second year of a five year plan.  If we make it we strengthen our squad, the dough and management is clearly there.   I believe the fans are there and will come in increasing numbers.   I think we can do it and the will and the spirit is there to make it last.  Its a great feel and karma on this end.

I don't have enough Rugby League history knowledge to comment on Fulham (sorry).

Time to hit the gas with the Wolfpack!

 

 

Fortunately, to extend your analogy, you are in Formula 3, looking to qualify for F1. You will find bigger engines and more cash as your opponents should you do so.

However, as stated previously, this shouldn't be seen as a negative necessarily.

What Fulham did was similar to TWP. Form a new team in London. Exceed expectations regarding crowds, enthusiasm and draw an entirely new audience. Got a lot of media coverage too. They went straight up. Only 2 divisions then.

Many of the same views were heard. They will win everything, it won't last, don't have any local players, we just don't like change, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, their team had too many past their best, small squad, started to lose, and lost all momentum.

37 years later, they are now the London Broncos.

Ironically, they didn't win everything or anything, did last, and do have local players. And some are coming round to the idea.

Do think they would have been better off with an extra year to get a really competitive team.

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, dixiedean said:

Fortunately, to extend your analogy, you are in Formula 3, looking to qualify for F1. You will find bigger engines and more cash as your opponents should you do so.

However, as stated previously, this shouldn't be seen as a negative necessarily.

What Fulham did was similar to TWP. Form a new team in London. Exceed expectations regarding crowds, enthusiasm and draw an entirely new audience. Got a lot of media coverage too. They went straight up. Only 2 divisions then.

Many of the same views were heard. They will win everything, it won't last, don't have any local players, we just don't like change, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, their team had too many past their best, small squad, started to lose, and lost all momentum.

37 years later, they are now the London Broncos.

Ironically, they didn't win everything or anything, did last, and do have local players. And some are coming round to the idea.

Do think they would have been better off with an extra year to get a really competitive team.

I think we can do it all in this one year....pretty sure we are going to give it a shot...could push it over the top.

London and Toronto are very different animals (same a horse and a wolf are different).

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

If RU is so much better run than RL, why is 'The Times' reporting today that 11 out of the 12 Premiership club are running at a loss and the ones that are up for sale ( it names London Irish and Worcester) can't find buyers? Looking at things rationally (a possible first for this forum) we don't seem to be doing too badly after all!

[Bob8]

21 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

what RU have done is not rocket science. Its not a mystery and its not unique to them.

RU identified that sport is a business, it decided what that business would look like and invested in it. RU has doubled the number of internationals played in a year and given them primacy. RU has invested in facilities and players and international club competition and the aviva premiership gives fans the chance to see true stars.

We do those things and and we will get results.

 

12 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

If RU is so much better run than RL, why is 'The Times' reporting today that 11 out of the 12 Premiership club are running at a loss and the ones that are up for sale ( it names London Irish and Worcester) can't find buyers? Looking at things rationally (a possible first for this forum) we don't seem to be doing too badly after all!

Quite so.

While some in RU have identified that it should be run as a business, most still run it as a vanity project. 

One of rugby union's main strengths is that it has plenty of wealthy men willing to run a club at a loss.  This pretty much ensures that you have to spend a fortune to compete at the top level and it is not really feasible to run it as a commercial concern.  This great strength is also a weakness.

[Mr Wind Up]

36 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

If RU is so much better run than RL, why is 'The Times' reporting today that 11 out of the 12 Premiership club are running at a loss and the ones that are up for sale ( it names London Irish and Worcester) can't find buyers? Looking at things rationally (a possible first for this forum) we don't seem to be doing too badly after all!

Probably because people overstate the importance of financial losses in the sports industry. Football is hardly a moneymaking business (unless you're the TV rights operator or the player) but is a SL club that makes a million in profit better off than a Man Utd with hundreds of million in debt or some random club which posts a million in losses? Case in point Rangers, which started up and again and is now back to where it was. As long as you have fans, going bust in sports seems to be trivial

[Exiled Wiganer]

Not quite sure what this is about any more, but assuming it is about crowds, in our local markets we are at historic (last 50 years) high levels. All clubs could do more, and I personally think the 10 by 2 approach with a mix of p and r and franchising is the best way to ensure clubs are given a chance to grow. Taking Widnes as an example, if they know they will be in the structure for the next 3 years, maybe they can better sell the reliance on youth development, with possibly an entertainer coming on board each year? Or maybe they are as big as they can realistically be given their geography and population? 

Toronto, Toulouse and even London etc are a different discussion altogether. We want them to succeed as expansion will benefit the GAME, even if it benefits no specific club directly. Greater player base, more attractive to sponsors and TV, hopefully strengthening the international footprint. These are all important in the wider context. 

Finally, it is a sign of how we quickly forget big steps forward that 12k for a Wire home game might be prefaced with the word “only”. Not so long ago that would have been a record by some distance...

Finally, without commenting on what it must be like to watch the dark side, I simply cannot see how getting lots of people in Exeter to turn up is directly relevant to a club like Widnes. They have enough information to draw upon from being a pro club for 100 years to work out who their target audience is, and what they can do to stir them into life.