Lions tour 2019 (Merged Threads)

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, damp squib said:

I should point out, lest I be accused of praising Union, that the changes to the team name occurred because of the collective action of the Ireland born and raised players in the squad who insisted on it on threat of strike, not because the Union authorities are less ignorant that the League ones. For obvious reasons that will never happen with the RL Lions. Brian Carney had received assurances before he agreed to play for the Lions that changes would be made to make it more inclusive but when he turned up on press day he had to explain to them why he didn't want to do a photo-shoot in front of a Union flag. One player isn't enough to change things and we don't even have that any more.

I've thought about this and there are a few issues with it.

1) It still doesn't work, as Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, it is part of the UK (hence the name on the passport "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland").

2) From a strategic point of view, British-identifying people represent less than half the population of the North, making them less than 15% of the total population of Ireland. Is it worth alienating the other 85% for the sake of being a bit more conscientious with the name/colours? Not to mention that any potential professional team in Ireland will almost certainly be based in Dublin.

My preference (if scrapping GB isn't an option) would be to go with the Olympics model. Keep the name GB and the jersey/crest etc. That's what GB fans want after all. However Ireland are not officially involved in it and any future RL superstar who emerges from the six counties can choose to play for either Ireland or Great Britain.

I'd like to retract my earlier post about it being a slip of the tongue it would appear they are just ##### eejits... and to a certain extent I am dissapointed by the RLI chaps comments now.. he should have just walked off after seeing the branding.

If this is the case then the Ireland of Ireland should just ignore the concept and you say work like the Olympics (I am of the scrap GB persuasion though.... love the shirt and would have had the badge as the england badge in 2008 when we first scrapped GB but dont see it being worth while bringing back)

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

I think that a tour to Aus would always take preferance, but to imply there would be little interest in this tour had if it been properly planned and organised is a little unfair, if you don't make the trip, I would not believe you for one moment when these games are televised you are anything but 100% committed supporting GB and viewing them all.

I am wrapping interest up as crowds, touring fans, sponsors, broadcasters etc. And I just don't see any real interest for a GB tour like this. 

What exactly was it that drove this? Genuinely the only thing I hear why is the shirt. I genuinely think this would have been avoided had England adopted the GB shirt and the Lions moniker. I used to love watching GB, but tbh, watching them was the same experience as watching England RL, obviously we had the added variety of the number of Welsh greats playing our game, but that is no longer a thing. But ultimately, when we were GB, we were in much the same boat as what we are now with England, we didn't have more sponsors fighting over partnering with us, or broadcasters begging to be able to cover the tours, paying us millions and millions for the privilege. 

Where I do think the RFL could have served a customer demand would have been in extended tours. Growing up I used to read the tour itineraries in Open Rugby and dreamed of the day I would have enough money to be able to follow my team all over Oz and NZ, and maybe PNG. I do think there is a demand for this, if organised well and with enough advanced notice. I went to the WC in Oz in 2008, and whilst it was great, I think a tour like  the RU lot do is still desirable. 

What they have delivered though is a shambles. This is a worse tour than the Four Nations Down under. At least with the 4N we got to play the Aussies as well. Had they at least managed to extend it with Samoa and Fiji, or even a couple of lesser rep teams in midweek it could have felt like a tour. Now it just feels like a 4N but without the trophy or the best team in it!

I will absolutely watch them, if a TV deal is ever announced, but I am a staunch RL fan, but had this been a proper tour, announced two years ago (and preferably England, btu I can live with the GB thing to an extent) then me and my family would have been looking to go over there! 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, damp squib said:

I should point out, lest I be accused of praising Union, that the changes to the team name occurred because of the collective action of the Ireland born and raised players in the squad who insisted on it on threat of strike, not because the Union authorities are less ignorant that the League ones. For obvious reasons that will never happen with the RL Lions. Brian Carney had received assurances before he agreed to play for the Lions that changes would be made to make it more inclusive but when he turned up on press day he had to explain to them why he didn't want to do a photo-shoot in front of a Union flag. One player isn't enough to change things and we don't even have that any more.

I've thought about this and there are a few issues with it.

1) It still doesn't work, as Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, it is part of the UK (hence the name on the passport "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland").

2) From a strategic point of view, British-identifying people represent less than half the population of the North, making them less than 15% of the total population of Ireland. Is it worth alienating the other 85% for the sake of being a bit more conscientious with the name/colours? Not to mention that any potential professional team in Ireland will almost certainly be based in Dublin.

My preference (if scrapping GB isn't an option) would be to go with the Olympics model. Keep the name GB and the jersey/crest etc. That's what GB fans want after all. However Ireland are not officially involved in it and any future RL superstar who emerges from the six counties can choose to play for either Ireland or Great Britain. This isn't a perfect solution (it contradicts my point 1) but it seems like a reasonable compromise that currently has a precedent in international sport.

I totally agree. If you're Irish and British you should be able to play for GB, if you're just irish then you shouldn't be subsumed into it. I would feel uncomfortable if Irish Brits were unable to play for a team called GB. The issue of heritage and residency players comes to the fore on this area too.

By the sounds of what Sinfield was saying this would only be a touring team anyway that played the year after the world cup.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Abicus said:

The Triple header is on the same date at the Rugby World Cup Final in Japan. Could very well feature New Zealand and England in it. It will kick off at 10pm NZ time.

Assuming the GB v NZ Test is at 7:30pm, most of the ground will start emptying, if they even attend.

hilarious.

Why are you assuming it is at 7.30pm? Has it been announced>

The Magic Weekend triple header on the Sunday play at 1pm, 3.30pm, and 6pm.

[damp squib]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What exactly was it that drove this?

If I remember correctly wasn't it all a political move by Wood to shore up support among a particular section of Rugby League fans? Not that it worked out for him.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, damp squib said:

If I remember correctly wasn't it all a political move by Wood to shore up support among a particular section of Rugby League fans? Not that it worked out for him.

As there is no election, I'm not sure why he would be looking to shore up support amongst certain sections of fans.

[Bramstein]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

Where I do think the RFL could have served a customer demand would have been in extended tours. Growing up I used to read the tour itineraries in Open Rugby and dreamed of the day I would have enough money to be able to follow my team all over Oz and NZ, and maybe PNG. I do think there is a demand for this, if organised well and with enough advanced notice. I went to the WC in Oz in 2008, and whilst it was great, I think a tour like  the RU lot do is still desirable. 

 

I agree with this and have said as much on the other thread. I think proper tour like it used to be (and like the RU lions still have) would be well received and would make the Lions idea more acceptable as it's clearly tapping into an old idea that people have fond memories of. I'd still prefer England given they've been the visible team for 12 years now but I could have lived with it and the nostalgia would have been nice.

What we've got though is clearly miles from this ideal.

[deluded pom?]

5 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

The Ashes in 2020 should now be contested by Great Britain and we should play the tests in Cardiff, London and Manchester, with a warm up game against France in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

 

GB have never played a home Test outside of England. Why would they start now?

[17 stone giant]

15 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

GB have never played a home Test outside of England. Why would they start now?

Because bringing Great Britain back should have some purpose to it. The aim should be to encourage the development of rugby league in Scotland and Wales. That means taking the national team to those areas. I know it wasn't done before, but it should have been. Let's not make the same mistake again!

[roughyedspud]

1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said:

Because bringing Great Britain back should have some purpose to it. The aim should be to encourage the development of rugby league in Scotland and Wales. That means taking the national team to those areas. I know it wasn't done before, but it should have been. Let's not make the same mistake again!

I was waiting for someone to ask what purpose GB has..does it encourage development???  Really???

GB was disbanded to encourage development in the home nations..in the last 10 years England have become ranked 2nd in the world and lost a world cup final by a ankle tap..Wales & Scotland won the European Cup and qualified for the 4 nations...Scotland famously drawing with the kiwis..and in 2017 all 4 nations appeared ,on merit, in a world cup on foreign soil for the first time ever....

And now GB gets brought back..

England go into hibernation till 2020,Wales have no tests planned at all this year and Scotland & ireland risk having their best taken away from them while they try to qualify for the world cup...but we're told not to worry about that cos they aren't good enough anyway.....which begs the question why bother with GB then??

Having NO GB encourages development..that's clear as day.. 

 

Just look at what happened to Wales between 2000 - 2007..a time when GB played every year from 01-07...they went from world cup semi finalist in 2000 to not even qualifying for 2008 , 

2008-2018 ,without GB, they've been European champs,played in a 4 nations,qualified for 2 world cups,have 2 club teams in the English league system ,receive sport Wales funding,a performance centre,strong junior development,Welsh kids at SL academies,a majority of the Welsh national team are now born in Wales..

If that doesn't tell you GB has a negative effect on development then nothing will..

[deluded pom?]

2 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Because bringing Great Britain back should have some purpose to it. The aim should be to encourage the development of rugby league in Scotland and Wales. That means taking the national team to those areas. I know it wasn't done before, but it should have been. Let's not make the same mistake again!

I’d love to see the attendance in Dublin when Great Britain and Ireland run out and virtually every player is English. Or do we cheapen the shirt and play token Irishmen to make it seem “genuine”?

[deluded pom?]

1 hour ago, roughyedspud said:

I was waiting for someone to ask what purpose GB has..does it encourage development???  Really???

GB was disbanded to encourage development in the home nations..in the last 10 years England have become ranked 2nd in the world and lost a world cup final by a ankle tap..Wales & Scotland won the European Cup and qualified for the 4 nations...Scotland famously drawing with the kiwis..and in 2017 all 4 nations appeared ,on merit, in a world cup on foreign soil for the first time ever....

And now GB gets brought back..

England go into hibernation till 2020,Wales have no tests planned at all this year and Scotland & ireland risk having their best taken away from them while they try to qualify for the world cup...but we're told not to worry about that cos they aren't good enough anyway.....which begs the question why bother with GB then??

Having NO GB encourages development..that's clear as day.. 

 

Just look at what happened to Wales between 2000 - 2007..a time when GB played every year from 01-07...they went from world cup semi finalist in 2000 to not even qualifying for 2008 , 

2008-2018 ,without GB, they've been European champs,played in a 4 nations,qualified for 2 world cups,have 2 club teams in the English league system ,receive sport Wales funding,a performance centre,strong junior development,Welsh kids at SL academies,a majority of the Welsh national team are now born in Wales..

If that doesn't tell you GB has a negative effect on development then nothing will..

Nail hit well and truly on the head.

[jim_57]

27 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

Nail hit well and truly on the head.

Great Britain (leave Ireland out of it) could, I repeat COULD work as a once every 4 (or 8 ) year thing if Wales ever got to the stage where they could add a few players who would make the squad on merit, Scotland less likely for obvious reasons.

As it stands it's nothing but a nostalgia trip. As for home games absolutely if there must be GB&I they should be playing a game in Cardiff and giving a share of profits to Wales, Scotland and Ireland and the RLIF should be enforcing it as such. I'm sure the English would then complain about sharing profits with 3 nations who don't contribute anything to the gimmick but it was their idea afterall.

I honestly wouldn't mind if England/RFL just stole the classic jersey and used it as their own. Not like Wales have ever had anything much to do with it other than the coach picking a few Welsh Union converts, also not like other English National sides haven't used blue before.

[Lobbygobbler]

19 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

GB have never played a home Test outside of England. Why would they start now?

Not quite true - The NU played a test at Celtic in 1908

[Lobbygobbler]

The GB shirt has always had a shamrock on the badge (underneath the English rose) used for many years 

[nadera78]

10 minutes ago, Lobbygobbler said:

The GB shirt has always had a shamrock on the badge (underneath the English rose) used for many years 

Nope. For many years, at least the 1980/90s the only badge on the shirt was a lion's head.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Lobbygobbler said:

The GB shirt has always had a shamrock on the badge (underneath the English rose) used for many years 

We havent seen this years tour shirt yet and I wouldnt dare guess what they are going to do anyway as they are very good at doing the exact opposite of what should obviously be done.

even with the lip service of an irish badge within the "British isles" badge, under the lions head (the main badge being used to promote the tour so far) it says "Great Britain Rugby League" no mention of Ireland

on press releases its "Great Britain" on the official logo (blue and Red with the Dacia logo and the lions head) it says "Great Britain Tour". The only person to mention "Ireland" was the RLI chief.. all the others just called it Great Britain including RImmer!!!!

A shamrock on a shield does not make up for all of that, its lazy and its patronising.

[Toby Chopra]

23 minutes ago, RP London said:

We havent seen this years tour shirt yet and I wouldnt dare guess what they are going to do anyway as they are very good at doing the exact obvious of what should be done.

even with the lip service of an irish badge within the "British isles" badge under the lions head (the main badge being used to promote the tour so far) it says "Great Britain Rugby League" no mention of Ireland

on press releases its "Great Britain" on the official logo (blue and Red with the Dacia logo and the lions head) it says "Great Britain Tour". The only person to mention "Ireland" was the RLI chief.. all the others just called it Great Britain including RImmer!!!!

A shamrock on a shield does not make up for all of that its lazy and its patronising.

This sums things up well. There are long established ways to reflect the complexity of Irish sporting identities in combined teams that we could have copied - but as usual the RFL try to reinvent the wheel and can't even get that right. 

I'll look forward to the games as I always enjoy internationals - and I might even think about a shirt - but as others have said, the idea that this will spark some sort of rugby league surge in the Celtic nations is for the birds. 

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

This sums things up well. There are long established ways to reflect the complexity of Irish sporting identities in combined teams that we could have copied - but as usual the RFL try to reinvent the wheel and can't even get that right. 

I'll look forward to the games as I always enjoy internationals - and I might even think about a shirt - but as others have said, the idea that this will spark some sort of rugby league surge in the Celtic nations is for the birds. 

yep.. i'd agree with that.. i'm english so stick a GB sticker on them, a GB&I sticker on them or an english one I will support them (I dont really see the point of this but that is a different story).. but this is a proper horlicks of a job with world cup qualifiers at the same time and no domestic international RL at all this season for England and Wales by the looks of it... (or france possibly).. 

[deluded pom?]

2 hours ago, Lobbygobbler said:

Not quite true - The NU played a test at Celtic in 1908

Not quite true. They weren't Great Britain in 1908.

[deluded pom?]

47 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

This sums things up well. There are long established ways to reflect the complexity of Irish sporting identities in combined teams that we could have copied - but as usual the RFL try to reinvent the wheel and can't even get that right. 

I'll look forward to the games as I always enjoy internationals - and I might even think about a shirt - but as others have said, the idea that this will spark some sort of rugby league surge in the Celtic nations is for the birds. 

Ralph's new company car.

 

[Odsal Outlaw]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:33 AM, Dave T said:

I am wrapping interest up as crowds, touring fans, sponsors, broadcasters etc. And I just don't see any real interest for a GB tour like this. 

What exactly was it that drove this? Genuinely the only thing I hear why is the shirt. I genuinely think this would have been avoided had England adopted the GB shirt and the Lions moniker. I used to love watching GB, but tbh, watching them was the same experience as watching England RL, obviously we had the added variety of the number of Welsh greats playing our game, but that is no longer a thing. But ultimately, when we were GB, we were in much the same boat as what we are now with England, we didn't have more sponsors fighting over partnering with us, or broadcasters begging to be able to cover the tours, paying us millions and millions for the privilege. 

Where I do think the RFL could have served a customer demand would have been in extended tours. Growing up I used to read the tour itineraries in Open Rugby and dreamed of the day I would have enough money to be able to follow my team all over Oz and NZ, and maybe PNG. I do think there is a demand for this, if organised well and with enough advanced notice. I went to the WC in Oz in 2008, and whilst it was great, I think a tour like  the RU lot do is still desirable. 

What they have delivered though is a shambles. This is a worse tour than the Four Nations Down under. At least with the 4N we got to play the Aussies as well. Had they at least managed to extend it with Samoa and Fiji, or even a couple of lesser rep teams in midweek it could have felt like a tour. Now it just feels like a 4N but without the trophy or the best team in it!

I will absolutely watch them, if a TV deal is ever announced, but I am a staunch RL fan, but had this been a proper tour, announced two years ago (and preferably England, btu I can live with the GB thing to an extent) then me and my family would have been looking to go over there! 

Agree on the shirt ... had England taken the GB design and the badge then I think the issue would have been largely solved.

[EastLondonMike]

Everything about this resurrection has been bad and ill thought out from day one.

It would be laughable if it didn't happen so often and over such a long period of time.

[roughyedspud]

I was gonna write ....ITS GOING REALLY WELL ALL THIS ISNT IT...lol

a majority of fans think it's a waste of time..

No one seems to know what the bloody team is called..GB,GB&I , GB LIONS,Great Britain rugby league lions...what is it?? 

Double headers & triple headers cos they can't afford stand alone games..

No test series to win..

Clashing with the RU world cup final..

Going great isn't it lol

But hey...at least we'll get a new Jersey out of it lol

[17 stone giant]

15 minutes ago, roughyedspud said:

I was gonna write ....ITS GOING REALLY WELL ALL THIS ISNT IT...lol

a majority of fans think it's a waste of time..

No one seems to know what the bloody team is called..GB,GB&I , GB LIONS,Great Britain rugby league lions...what is it?? 

Double headers & triple headers cos they can't afford stand alone games..

No test series to win..

Clashing with the RU world cup final..

Going great isn't it lol

But hey...at least we'll get a new Jersey out of it lol

Yes, and when some of us were suggesting that the RFL should have taken a pragmatic approach and accepted the Aussies offer to tour here instead this year, you were quick to say no, we should stand up to "bullies" (your words, not mine). Now you're on here saying how rubbish the tour is going to be and intimating that it's a stupid idea because of things such as clashing with the RU world cup. Has it not occurred to you that some of the reasons you list are precisely the reasons why some of us thought it might have made more sense to host the Aussies this year, and then look to tour when the conditions were more appropriate (namely things like the Aussies willing to play us, no rugby union world cup clash, etc.).

As I said previously, this year in the UK there will be NO rugby union autumn internationals (they've been moved to summer because of the RUWC), and the rugby union world cup matches (at least at the semi final and final stage) will be finished by 11am UK time on Saturdays. This would have meant that England/GB v Australia Ashes matches this year in the UK could have been played at 3pm and not had the usual competition from rugby union. It would have been a perfect opportunity to maybe pick up a few non-regular viewers.