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Lions tour 2019 (Merged Threads)


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5 hours ago, RP London said:

seriously (because I really cant think of any) who isn't making themselves available who should be and would if they played bigger games?

For me, it isn't so much who isn't putting their hands up for this Lions tour, but a case of who isn't putting their hands up for Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The GB tour could be the carrot that entices them to make themselves available for those nations when there isn't a World Cup on. There needs to be regular meaningful high profile internationals for those teams. It's criminal that since the 2013 WC, England have only played one game against Scotland, and none against Wales or Ireland.

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9 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

For me, it isn't so much who isn't putting their hands up for this Lions tour, but a case of who isn't putting their hands up for Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The GB tour could be the carrot that entices them to make themselves available for those nations when there isn't a World Cup on. There needs to be regular meaningful high profile internationals for those teams. It's criminal that since the 2013 WC, England have only played one game against Scotland, and none against Wales or Ireland.

Sorry Geek that was exactly my point.. who isnt putting their hands up, who can be enticed to do this? they can qualify for the world cup now (they have qualifiers going on at the moment).. plenty put their hands up for Scotland and Ireland (some then go back to England). Ireland are talking of different policies to stop so much of this as well. I just cannot think of anyone that isnt putting their hands up to play.. (some may have heritage but dont want to represent it and want to represent England.. )

For me the problem is the fact its the same team different shirt. I have no issue with JUST being GB and think we would still have the same people putting their hands up. I just dont see the point in GB being there when it is England. I dont see GB encouraging more people to put their hands up (lets be honest people know if they are good enough to be pushing the England boys out of a spot and if they were most would put their hand up for England anyway if they qualify and your probably only looking at the Welsh who play and maybe dont have dual qualification). 

I am happy either way, keep the home nations with the world cup enticing people to play for these nations. Be GB for everything but its the changing shirt for no real reason that i dont get (i dont see it encouraging anyone to play for another "home nation" who wouldnt be doing it to play in the world cup [which they would have more chance of doing than getting in a GB squad])

I really dont see the logic at the moment of this mix and match approach.

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14 minutes ago, RP London said:

Sorry Geek that was exactly my point.. who isnt putting their hands up, who can be enticed to do this? they can qualify for the world cup now (they have qualifiers going on at the moment).. plenty put their hands up for Scotland and Ireland (some then go back to England). Ireland are talking of different policies to stop so much of this as well. I just cannot think of anyone that isnt putting their hands up to play.. (some may have heritage but dont want to represent it and want to represent England.. )

For me the problem is the fact its the same team different shirt. I have no issue with JUST being GB and think we would still have the same people putting their hands up. I just dont see the point in GB being there when it is England. I dont see GB encouraging more people to put their hands up (lets be honest people know if they are good enough to be pushing the England boys out of a spot and if they were most would put their hand up for England anyway if they qualify and your probably only looking at the Welsh who play and maybe dont have dual qualification). 

I am happy either way, keep the home nations with the world cup enticing people to play for these nations. Be GB for everything but its the changing shirt for no real reason that i dont get (i dont see it encouraging anyone to play for another "home nation" who wouldnt be doing it to play in the world cup [which they would have more chance of doing than getting in a GB squad])

I really dont see the logic at the moment of this mix and match approach.

The thing is RP they don't even want GB it seems. They have put zero effort into the brand and marketing (we could all have designed the kit FFS). All the social media for "GB" is being done through England RL. They have no social media accounts for GB (or none I noticed), the women are still playing as England in a curtain raiser to GB. 

People say the Sport England money has nothing to do with it. It absolutely has. There is a reason all the summer camps were England development, why the England wheelchair is playing in the Ashes, why England women are on tour, why England competed in the World nines men/women - it is because there is no infastructure for GB and no central/govt funding available.

I will enjoy the games thoroughly as it will be the only international RL on offer. But the fall out from this will be horrendous and painful. The RFL are going to lose so much cash. This is an organisation so strapped for cash it wanted to charge some clubs 500k to enter the cup for fear of losing a few 1000 ticket sales.

There will be circa 17k empty seats in a 24k stadium this weekend, and as many as 35-40k empty seats at Eden Park next week. That is awful and costly.

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4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

The thing is RP they don't even want GB it seems. They have put zero effort into the brand and marketing (we could all have designed the kit FFS). All the social media for "GB" is being done through England RL. They have no social media accounts for GB (or none I noticed), the women are still playing as England in a curtain raiser to GB. 

People say the Sport England money has nothing to do with it. It absolutely has. There is a reason all the summer camps were England development, why the England wheelchair is playing in the Ashes, why England women are on tour, why England competed in the World nines men/women - it is because there is no infastructure for GB and no central/govt funding available.

I will enjoy the games thoroughly as it will be the only international RL on offer. But the fall out from this will be horrendous and painful. The RFL are going to lose so much cash. This is an organisation so strapped for cash it wanted to charge some clubs 500k to enter the cup for fear of losing a few 1000 ticket sales.

There will be circa 17k empty seats in a 24k stadium this weekend, and as many as 35-40k empty seats at Eden Park next week. That is awful and costly.

oh i 100% agree with you.. I cannot fathom ANY reason to have done this outside of "the shirt".. there is no sense.. the world cup is growing and is an incentive in itself for people to put their hands up to play for their home nation we dont need GB to do that.. If its about the best players playing (ie when Brian Carney was playing) that wouldnt get the chance then I understand that but dont agree that we should make a team just for that.. 

Nothing gets fixed by this, but it can cause damage. 

I will, of course, support them but it doesnt mean (unlike what some on here may think) i have to like it or agree with it. 

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53 minutes ago, RP London said:

Sorry Geek that was exactly my point.. who isnt putting their hands up, who can be enticed to do this? they can qualify for the world cup now (they have qualifiers going on at the moment).. plenty put their hands up for Scotland and Ireland (some then go back to England). Ireland are talking of different policies to stop so much of this as well. I just cannot think of anyone that isnt putting their hands up to play.. (some may have heritage but dont want to represent it and want to represent England.. )

You only have to compare this Autumn's Scotland and Ireland squads with those of the 2017 WC to see that there are loads of the bigger names who aren't playing for whatever reason. Ultimately, a lot less people are going to put their hands up for low-key internationals played in front of the proverbial man and a dog compared to higher profile games. Alas, I fear that the sport's decision makers lack the foresight and skills to be able to develop a sufficiently high profile annual mid-season European tournament that would entice players to play.

And I appreciate alot of the players would be heritage players, but I don't have any issue with that. Apart from soccer, every other team sport that I can think of does if for their internationals.

56 minutes ago, RP London said:

I really dont see the logic at the moment of this mix and match approach.

This is the problem. There really isn't any logic to it at all. The only way GB could work IMO is as something that complements the existing home nations activity as opposed to replacing it. This year's tour makes no sense at all. GB only makes sense to me as something for home nations players to aspire to play in, and consequently encourage them to make themselves available for their respective country's preceding internationals in order to get in the shop window. But if GB merely replaces home nations games (or worse - is played at the same time) then it makes no sense at all, and serves to completely devalue the home nations games.

Somebody in another thread (apologies as I forget who) made the point that this GB tour feels less important than an England tour would - almost as if it's a novelty invitational side. 

 

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1 hour ago, Scubby said:

fall out from this will be horrendous and painful. The RFL are going to lose so much cash. This is an organisation so strapped for cash it wanted to charge some clubs 500k to enter the cup for fear of losing a few 1000 ticket sales.

There will be circa 17k empty seats in a 24k stadium this weekend, and as many as 35-40k empty seats at Eden Park next week. That is awful and costly.

The bigger issue here though Scubby, is that we would be saying the same if it was England RL going down there. 

I'm less concerned about the GB vs Eng issue, it is what it is, but the tour just aint an intriguing one. 

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27 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

You only have to compare this Autumn's Scotland and Ireland squads with those of the 2017 WC to see that there are loads of the bigger names who aren't playing for whatever reason. Ultimately, a lot less people are going to put their hands up for low-key internationals played in front of the proverbial man and a dog compared to higher profile games. Alas, I fear that the sport's decision makers lack the foresight and skills to be able to develop a sufficiently high profile annual mid-season European tournament that would entice players to play.

And I appreciate alot of the players would be heritage players, but I don't have any issue with that. Apart from soccer, every other team sport that I can think of does if for their internationals.

This is the problem. There really isn't any logic to it at all. The only way GB could work IMO is as something that complements the existing home nations activity as opposed to replacing it. This year's tour makes no sense at all. GB only makes sense to me as something for home nations players to aspire to play in, and consequently encourage them to make themselves available for their respective country's preceding internationals in order to get in the shop window. But if GB merely replaces home nations games (or worse - is played at the same time) then it makes no sense at all, and serves to completely devalue the home nations games.

Somebody in another thread (apologies as I forget who) made the point that this GB tour feels less important than an England tour would - almost as if it's a novelty invitational side. 

 

Agree completely.. 

we need to get hold of the international game and sort it out.. this GB tour though is just damaging it IMHO. 

More internationals.. mid season internationals.. dont worry about lop sided but equally, as an england team, dont worry about flying NRL players over and the lopsidedness gets less and we get to blood young players which can only be good.. play, play, play give the rights away to FTA if you have to as you will make more money back on increased gates at clubs, more merch sold, more interest etc than you would from putting it behind a firewall (like the Samoa game) .. it is advertising!

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15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The bigger issue here though Scubby, is that we would be saying the same if it was England RL going down there. 

I'm less concerned about the GB vs Eng issue, it is what it is, but the tour just aint an intriguing one. 

I wonder if that is true though.. because England beat NZ last year here and the Eng v Tonga semi I wonder if it would have caught the imagination a little more.. equally arguably (and there is a very good argument that this isnt the case) that all concerned would have had a longer run in to push this as it would have been decided way before while they were tyring to work out the commercials etc for GB to actually exist.. 

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23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The bigger issue here though Scubby, is that we would be saying the same if it was England RL going down there. 

I'm less concerned about the GB vs Eng issue, it is what it is, but the tour just aint an intriguing one. 

What kind of ####ed up organisation effectively has a triple header at Eden Park (Sam v Fiji, Ton v Australia, GB v NZ) and they are playing for 3 completely different purposes? 

Nigel Wood's Pacific Cup stuff is a waste of space, 3 teams in 2 pools with P&R FFS. We could have had an amazing 4 Nations tournament with Eng, NZ, Ton, Australia and a pacific cup with PNG, Sam, Fiji and Cooks as a complimentary competition.

Next year Australia can't compete in any Pacific Cu because they are in England. It is a complete mess. So what happens to P&R? 

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2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

What kind of ####ed up organisation effectively has a triple header at Eden Park (Sam v Fiji, Ton v Australia, GB v NZ) and they are playing for 3 completely different purposes? 

Nigel Wood's Pacific Cup stuff is a waste of space, 3 teams in 2 pools with P&R FFS. We could have had an amazing 4 Nations tournament with Eng, NZ, Ton, Australia and a pacific cup with PNG, Sam, Fiji and Cooks as a complimentary competition.

Next year Australia can't compete in any Pacific Cu because they are in England. It is a complete mess. So what happens to P&R? 

There is absolutely no joined up thinking in anything that the international game does. The NRL going off on a whim, ignoring the IRL and doing its own thing doesn't help. 

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7 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is absolutely no joined up thinking in anything that the international game does. The NRL going off on a whim, ignoring the IRL and doing its own thing doesn't help. 

too busy rebranding ffs!!!

The IRL (or whatever they will be in a years time) need to run the international game.. tell the NRL to stand down do what is best for the international game... If the NRL or ARL say "we dont want to play little nations" fine that is ok but let the IRL then organise stuff taking that into account and building other bits beneath it etc.. the IRL MUST be in charge of the international game though and organise it (even if they have to organise around the NRL just stop the NRL organising random stuff with no long term thinking!)

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58 minutes ago, Damien said:

There is absolutely no joined up thinking in anything that the international game does. The NRL going off on a whim, ignoring the IRL and doing its own thing doesn't help. 

Joined up thinking ?

  • Confed Cup er.... yes/no
  • World 9s ... okay .... GB ... no ... England... yes
  • Pacific Cup 2019, what about 2020 Australia aren't there errrr... don't know
  • RLIF = IRL
  • GB Tour = Aus No.... er let's just go anyway
  • IRL CEO .... buys Bradford Bulls ? 

What chance did this tour have when we have clowns living hand to mouth?

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1 hour ago, RP London said:

I wonder if that is true though.. because England beat NZ last year here and the Eng v Tonga semi I wonder if it would have caught the imagination a little more.. equally arguably (and there is a very good argument that this isnt the case) that all concerned would have had a longer run in to push this as it would have been decided way before while they were tyring to work out the commercials etc for GB to actually exist.. 

I have no doubt that we would be looking at similar success with England. I don't think there is suddenly some England/Tonga rivalry because we met in the WC semi, although it may have had a nice marketing message. Ultimately GB/England has been interchangeable for the Southern Hemisphere teams. It's just the Poms that are touring.

I agree with the principle of your last point, but in reality we don't really do the long lead-ins and the biggest stumbling block here was the Aussies not wanting to play against us. There is no reason at all to suggest this would be different for England RL. The tour itself has been the stumbling block. And that should be a concern for all of us, because if this is a massive failure it is likely that we will go down there even less than we already do.

International crowds in Oz and NZ are already really modest, the 2017 WC was average at best and we are looking like some poor crowds now for the internationals over the coming week.

There is nothing to suggest that it is because the England team will wear a GB kit.

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1 hour ago, Scubby said:

What kind of ####ed up organisation effectively has a triple header at Eden Park (Sam v Fiji, Ton v Australia, GB v NZ) and they are playing for 3 completely different purposes? 

Nigel Wood's Pacific Cup stuff is a waste of space, 3 teams in 2 pools with P&R FFS. We could have had an amazing 4 Nations tournament with Eng, NZ, Ton, Australia and a pacific cup with PNG, Sam, Fiji and Cooks as a complimentary competition.

Next year Australia can't compete in any Pacific Cu because they are in England. It is a complete mess. So what happens to P&R? 

But that is a different point to us being GB, which is my point. The GB crowds will be what they would likely be for England games there. It is the schedule, organisation and marketing that is the bigger issue. 

Ignoring any politics and personal preferences, GB can be as successful as England (most people spend their time highlighting they are the same thing) - the real issues need to be focused on.

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2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

 

Somebody in another thread (apologies as I forget who) made the point that this GB tour feels less important than an England tour would - almost as if it's a novelty invitational side. 

 

I just can't agree with this point.

There is a point in there that this isn't a Four Nations or a three test series so it just looks like 4 random friendlies, but that would be the same whether the players were wearing the England kit or the GB kit. It is a bit of a red herring for people to focus on the GB element of this when they see the empty seats.

There has never been massive demand for us to tour NZ, that is why it was generally a bolt-on to an Oz tour.

TBH, I actually think the coverage has been far more extensive than the coverage the England team have received for 4N Down Under.

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I just can't agree with this point.

There is a point in there that this isn't a Four Nations or a three test series so it just looks like 4 random friendlies, but that would be the same whether the players were wearing the England kit or the GB kit. It is a bit of a red herring for people to focus on the GB element of this when they see the empty seats.

There has never been massive demand for us to tour NZ, that is why it was generally a bolt-on to an Oz tour.

TBH, I actually think the coverage has been far more extensive than the coverage the England team have received for 4N Down Under.

GB were brought back to tour, not to play in international competitions. They are not a nation, they have no world ranking, they are probably not even official test matches. The whole idea was tests against Australia and some midweek games (in Australia) and maybe one test in PNG. That went off the table over a year ago yet they ###### about creating some weird loss-making itinerary that neither earns test ranking points or makes money.

Look at this, England could theoretically drop in the rankings even if GB win every test on this tour. If NZ beat Australia tomorrow that is the only ranking test in this whole autumn as Tonga aren't Tonga and GB aren't a ranked test nation.

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43 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Joined up thinking ?

  • Confed Cup er.... yes/no
  • World 9s ... okay .... GB ... no ... England... yes
  • Pacific Cup 2019, what about 2020 Australia aren't there errrr... don't know
  • RLIF = IRL
  • GB Tour = Aus No.... er let's just go anyway
  • IRL CEO .... buys Bradford Bulls ? 

What chance did this tour have when we have clowns living hand to mouth?

To be fair, the only real incompetence there is the Confed Cup. For me it is the biggest failure of the international game for the last 10 to 15 years, not delivering this.

- World Cup 9's - England and Wales have been in WC's for years, that's ok.

- Pacific Cup - Aus can just play a mid-season test and 1 before they leave for the England tour like they used to for 4N.

- RLIF to IRL - no issue.

- GB Tour - Oz pulling out is one of those things, but ultimately we should still be staging internationals even if they say no. Unfortunately the tour they came up with is average, but that is on the RFL.

- Bulls - God knows how that will play out and what is going on there.

 

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1 minute ago, Scubby said:

GB were brought back to tour, not to play in international competitions. They are not a nation, they have no world ranking, they are probably not even official test matches. The whole idea was tests against Australia and some midweek games (in Australia) and maybe one test in PNG. That went off the table over a year ago yet they ###### about creating some weird loss-making itinerary that neither earns test ranking points or makes money.

Look at this, England could theoretically drop in the rankings even if GB win every test on this tour. If NZ beat Australia tomorrow that is the only ranking test in this whole autumn at Tonga aren't Tonga and GB aren't a ranked test nation.

They are valid concerns. They aren't the reasons there will be thousands of empty seats on Saturday.

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11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They are valid concerns. They aren't the reasons there will be thousands of empty seats on Saturday.

What do you think the reasons are Dave.

New Zealand traditionally do not get great crowds, the other games semi final at a similar time will not help.

What other reasons do you think?

 

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I have no doubt that we would be looking at similar success with England. I don't think there is suddenly some England/Tonga rivalry because we met in the WC semi, although it may have had a nice marketing message. Ultimately GB/England has been interchangeable for the Southern Hemisphere teams. It's just the Poms that are touring.

I agree with the principle of your last point, but in reality we don't really do the long lead-ins and the biggest stumbling block here was the Aussies not wanting to play against us. There is no reason at all to suggest this would be different for England RL. The tour itself has been the stumbling block. And that should be a concern for all of us, because if this is a massive failure it is likely that we will go down there even less than we already do.

International crowds in Oz and NZ are already really modest, the 2017 WC was average at best and we are looking like some poor crowds now for the internationals over the coming week.

There is nothing to suggest that it is because the England team will wear a GB kit.

Which is fair comment, neither of us can be sure on this... I certainly wouldnt say it would be a lot better with England.. (apologies for the parky emboldening).. I'd argue a few bits ie i think the Tonga revenge thing could be a good spin for tickets etc but it would be minor thousand her thousand there and isnt going to be earth shattering even if i were right. 

Even if it would be "the same" with England at least there would be sense behind it rather than rebuilding something that isnt really worth that much (and will be worth even less if this fails). I'd also be interested to know how much extra it has costs to get GB back up and running that you wouldnt have had to spend on England going (really not sure what is covered here, how much is just England in a different suit, how much the extra branded kit/stuff is free etc)

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22 minutes ago, RP London said:

Which is fair comment, neither of us can be sure on this... I certainly wouldnt say it would be a lot better with England.. (apologies for the parky emboldening).. I'd argue a few bits ie i think the Tonga revenge thing could be a good spin for tickets etc but it would be minor thousand her thousand there and isnt going to be earth shattering even if i were right. 

Even if it would be "the same" with England at least there would be sense behind it rather than rebuilding something that isnt really worth that much (and will be worth even less if this fails). I'd also be interested to know how much extra it has costs to get GB back up and running that you wouldnt have had to spend on England going (really not sure what is covered here, how much is just England in a different suit, how much the extra branded kit/stuff is free etc)

I agree with much of it, and I am firmly in the camp that would have preferred England RL to actually play some games this year. 

But that decision has gone. But let's be honest, they arent concerns for many, mainly us obsessives on places like this.

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26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree with much of it, and I am firmly in the camp that would have preferred England RL to actually play some games this year. 

But that decision has gone. But let's be honest, they arent concerns for many, mainly us obsessives on places like this.

You're quite right and I have to keep telling myself this. On here we are clearly concerned by ticket sales, impact, exposure and whatever else of this tour which are understandable concerns but even if it is a bit of a flop it will pass most people by anyway so won't do any particular damage to rugby league's credibility in the wider world, just in the eyes of the manic fans in these dark corners of the Web. So I just keep telling myself I'm gonna enjoy it regardless of all that stuff and be thankful there's some good quality internationals to watch in the first place! ?

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Just received this email

"Hi,

 

We have recently tried getting into contact with you in regards to the Lions Triple Header on  November 2nd at Eden Park in Auckland.

Our promoter has decided to close off the South Stand and therefore have reallocated your seats at no extra cost to you.

You should have already received your new tickets the same method you chose for your original tickets. Please only take your re-issued tickets to the venue as your original tickets will not gain you entry.

Please note: If you have collected your tickets from an agency you will either need to collect your new tickets again or collect them at the box office before the match."

Doesn't bode well for a good crowd

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