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1800 at Widnes last night


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1 hour ago, MADREDNIGE said:

Fans aren't as interested now a days because it's the same teams getting to Wembley every year from about 6 teams, its boring and too predictable. 

Nope. As mentioned above this applies even more so to Superleague.

The reason for the decline of the Challenge Cup is the same as the reason for everything else that happens - money.

The vast majority of the money clubs make is through Superleague and the Sky deal. Anything that distracts from the task of surviving in Superleague, or getting promoted to Superleague, is too big a financial risk to take seriously. This is the logical attitude that clubs take and it is filtered down to the fans.

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5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That’s when I arrived in town if it helps? ?

That's it, does it warrant its own thread.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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5 hours ago, MADREDNIGE said:

Fair comment but it doesn't alter the fact fans are tired of it, could be two games at Wembley give Championship teams a chance and plenty more would attend then, just an idea. 

Which did happen in 1997, but I believe only lasted for 1 year

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-league-hunslet-transfixed-as-gene-weaves-his-rovers-magic-1259835.html

 

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11 hours ago, langpark said:

Forgive me for posting something positive about last night, but.....

 

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4000 fans for two teams less than ten miles apart. 

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1 hour ago, John Fisher said:

4000 fans for two teams less than ten miles apart. 

Seriously 10 miles apart? Surely they should merge :tongue:. They do both wear red, how hard could it be?

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Is there any other sport in the world were "fans" are so fixated on crowd numbers and specifically attendance of OTHER clubs?

While it may be a general concern for the sport as a whole, specific club ticket sales are only an issue to that club.

Constantly we have "end is nigh" threads on here which is often fans of one poorly supported club, trying to point out that another club is even worse supported than them.

Why? What does that achieve?

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6 hours ago, ojx said:

Seriously 10 miles apart? Surely they should merge :tongue:. They do both wear red, how hard could it be?

And Leigh is also 11.2 miles from St Helens and 7.8 miles from Wigan and they also play in Red and White, so that is 4 teams that can be rolled into one, what a brilliant idea, create more space and players available for new teams in the North American take over of the sport.

Problem as I see it

Interest in those places now defunct withers, the game in the schools dies, the community game suffers, some academies are no more - I know these functions are hard for you to imagine as they don't apply over there but believe me they are really important issues as it would have an effect on the sport in general, especially in places that are reliant on others producing player's.?

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20 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

We need to spend money, we need to invest, we need to be imaginative we need to be open and innovative. We need to adapt. Right now, sadly, i agree that is rarely happening, and we are simply managing the decline.

The CC needs to be event-based. It needs to be something different, not much of the same.

I've suggested this a few times, but I think the Magic Weekend format would work really well for the cup. The combined attendance of this round is probably going to be around the 30,000 mark for 8 games, and it will probably be similar for the quarters and semis too.

Somewhere like Coventry for this round (split over 2 days) and even two double header at Blackpool for the quarters would certainly drum up some interest. You wouldn't need to wait for the cup draw to order the next round's tickets, and you did even do the draw at the end of the weekend.

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think the problem is that, for instance, this weekend is the weekend before the Magic Weekend. So we couldnt really do the magic weekend format there.

I'd replace the Magic Weekend with this. It's an extra fixture that's not needed, but it's a good concept and would work well for a CC knockout format.

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Also this round has 8 games which is probably too many, especially when a few of them arent the most attractive fixtures.

We've had 4 games in one day on Magic Weekends before. Wouldn't really be an issue. People don't have to watch all games, that's the point. Just watch a few.

 

9 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The quarters have 4 which is probably fine for doing two double headers, the problem there becomes the tv rights being split between Sky and the BBC.

That's the crux of it. You could have one having it one day and one the other, bit it depends what gets agreed. It would need to be proposed before a TV rights deal as part of it. It could be more attractive to BBC as set up costs would be less, perhaps increasing coverage on FTA TV.

 

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Start with a group stage, say 8 groups of 5 starting on boxing day, everyone plays 4 games, taking advantage of the bank holidays, have a game televised every day between boxing day and the 2nd Jan. Schedule games every weekend (so teams arent playing every week) 2 qualify from each group, semi-finals end of Feb final beginning of May (May Bank Holiday).

Not sure increasing fixtures and the length of the season would favour many (wouldn't bother me like!). It wouldn't get many votes for that reason alone.

 

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4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And Leigh is also 11.2 miles from St Helens and 7.8 miles from Wigan and they also play in Red and White, so that is 4 teams that can be rolled into one, what a brilliant idea, create more space and players available for new teams in the North American take over of the sport.

Problem as I see it

Interest in those places now defunct withers, the game in the schools dies, the community game suffers, some academies are no more - I know these functions are hard for you to imagine as they don't apply over there but believe me they are really important issues as it would have an effect on the sport in general, especially in places that are reliant on others producing player's.?

Sorry Harry, I wasn't being serious. What can be done to get the community and school games back to a healthy state? Does it have anything to do with the perception of the sport? Or is it a more general societal problem with a drop of participation by kids in all sports?

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For me i think it would help if SL teams entered the competition a bit sooner. I know people may say the games could be one-sided but it brings in a couple of elements: firstly, a real chance for amateur or lower league sides to play a big club, and also if SL teams were drawn against each other earlier on, it may open up spots for teams from other leagues to go on a cup run (more publicity and interest across RL and sport in general). You don't need to bring them in from the first round but i think third round or fourth at the very latest is fine.

For me as a Wigan fan i would say if anything causes a lack of interest it's the lack of variety in terms of the teams we could be drawn against. It's generally SL clubs plus one or two lower league clubs, but the prospect of playing a club i haven't seen play before could peak my interest in any cup draws at least.

And a final point i'd make is to keep the ticket prices realistic and discount where reasonable.

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21 hours ago, Chris22 said:

Indeed.  I was there, and that game was more than just a curtain-raiser. I felt it really enhanced the occasion, and helped get the fans for the CC final geared up in anticipation. It did me, anyway!

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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On an historic note, in 1985 Widnes were at home to Runcorn (remember them?) at the same stage of the competition and had a gate of 5528 - their previous home game in the league against Leeds only attracted 4657. The average gate in the top division that season was 4738 (the good old days that some people here seem to want to go back to).

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On 5/13/2018 at 12:37 PM, scotchy1 said:

1. The fundamental part of the magic weekend was that it was every league game played in one place and at one time. All live on Sky (who love it). Exchanging it for a cup game is a big change. I don't think it would replace the magic weekend it would just be an inferior version of it.

2.Yeah but then whats the point? If only 1800 will go watch widnes v leeds in widnes, how many are going to bother going all the way to coventry to watch it because they also get Les Catalans v Workings, Salford v Leigh and Wakefield Huddersfield as well? especially if they arent going to bother watching them.

3. BBC arent going to screen 8 matches over two days so we lose that aspect of the magic weekend. So then im a bit lost as to why we are playing games in front of next to nobody in Coventry and not on TV. If we could get the BBC to screen more by staging the games together we would be better offering two double headers as that would (for this round at least) still allow Sky to take a Thursday and Friday game. Though im not sure that in and of itself this would increase attendances all that much

4. It would replace the pre-season games, and shorten the SL season, most games would be against lower league opposition, it would add a maximum of 3 fixtures and only then for the two who got to the final. It also wouldnt be during the SL season.

I think live competitive challenge cup rugby league over the festive period could be a great tradition that people would almost stumble in to.

We maybe need to attract a new audience. ‘’The Rugby League Challenge Cup. Who are you cheering to Wembley this summer?’’ Next year move the QF to the RFLs new pad at City of Manc in July, Semis in Coventry. The fixtures are on the road to Wembley (M6). Publicize it heavily in the BBCs coverage next year (hopefully) of the Denver test. All on the BBC (biggest games on BBC1 rest on red button - cameras already there, just like Sky love Magic). Get RL fans but get some footy fans there as no World Cup. If it’s a success, expand both over two days each weekend. If we can expand more, prior round to replace Magic in Newcastle (16 teams will probably have all SL teams plus 2 champ who are excited to be there). Prior round can be 4 SL teams plus the other non SL teams at Headingley who are playing to get to Newcastle. Have a plan and execute stage by stage. Get Mr Hearn to do it and share the profits. He’s just negotiated a billion pound TV deal in the US. We need him and a decent fraction of that in our sport.

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personally, i don't think having 8 SL clubs enter at the last 16 stage is good.

It should, in my opinion be an open draw for the last 32, a chance for a minnow or an amateur club to draw one of the big boys at home, although it's usually the other way round!

It gets a bit tedious when you know you're more than likely to get drawn against a team you already play 3,4,5 times a season and it gives the draw a bit of excitement, people get sick of seeing the same games, there's only so much a fan can take by watching the same teams play each other so many times,

Yes, you might get some blowout scorelines, but you might also get some shocks too, it could lead to bigger crowds, as SL fans would more than likely travel to somewhere they haven't been for ages, like the Qualifiers, most SL fans have loved going to the championship clubs ' grounds as it;s a change of scenery for them, like i say, i reckon most clubs would take more to say, Whitehaven or Rochdale as it's somewhere they don't go to regularly.

The last 16 and last 8 have almost become like extra middle 8 games where no one is excited by them, make the draw, the fixtures and the cup more exciting!

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

An Amateur side against an SL side would be dangerous.

Kind of agree with you there to a point, although what would the solution be in your opinion? If we have them in the cup there's always the possibility that they could come up against an SL side with a cup run.

Thinking about it though putting a group of amateur players on the same pitch as a team who train on a full-time basis does seem like a physical mismatch, the type other physical sports such as boxing just wouldn't tolerate (appreciate the point of league isn't to punch people but still).

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7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

its currently very unlikely though isnt it. I think there is a reason we don't see it. I would be surprised if we ever saw it again.

It is although i seem to remember Wigan St Pats being drawn against Leigh about 3 or 4 years ago (not sure if Leigh were full-time then) so it does happen - i'm not sure it's ever been genuinely considered by the rfl if i'm being honest, although i do definitely agree it's dangerous especially if a few first team players happen to be missing from the side.

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3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Im still not sure who these new fans are that would attend what is essentially an inferior version of the magic weekend? especially considering they dont currently attend the magic weekend.

There is also the fact that Sky love the magic weekend and we are taking it from them to hide it away on the red button,

Im just not sure the problem with the challenge cup is that we havent lumped all the games in one place.

I’d counter that it’s far from an inferior version of Magic. Magic is an artificial SL round, and it’s overkill for the casual fan, with whom the Challenge Cup has a sense of nostalgia. Most 35+ Sports fans can resonate with Wigan’s famous run, with a Edwards, Offiah and Robinson on Grandstand (read Eddie Hearn), and they can bring their kids. But unless we capitalise on that soon that will be lost forever. Much as the ‘glamour of Super League’ is all the many RL fans consider, that isn’t embraced by the wider public.

We really need to push the Challenge Cup, at least the QF, the semis and the final in the 3 biggest big population centers like Manchester, the West Midlands and London, outside of the football and RU (especially Coventry with Wasps mailing list) seasons. Saracens and Harlequins don’t get big crowds for regular season games, but they get big crowds at Twickenham and Wembley when they really push it.

What RU also do really well is jump from the 6 Nations into their European Cup. We can do the same by using the Denver tests as a springboard into the business end of the Challenge Cup. We can have the added advantage of using the same, and the biggest UK broadcast partner.

Let SL be our bread and butter. But use the Challenge Cup as out outreach big events. The likes of Huddersfield and Widnes don’t have much to lose in terms of these attendances.

Red button isn’t hidden away. More accessible than the streaming the BBC do which gets good audiences in earlier rounds, will be good click bait after an early afternoon game, and having 4 iPlayer games after the QFs on the BBC sport home page instead of two is the kind of content the BBC want. 

No reason Magic needs to be lost. If anything intially it can be built on by this approach, at a less competive time in the sporting calendar. Only if this is a raging success would Magic be replaced. And then the BBC is a far more accessible platform than Sky.

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With the worrying knowledge that the RFL seem to want to emulate the other code,it seems the other code are also wanting change,or the journalists covering the sport do...

     https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/may/15/club-rugby-requires-planning-and-innovation

 

 

 

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You got 1800 at widnes, for widnes v leeds. I really can't imagine there are that many neutrals who would attend, or even a countable number of fans who didnt attend who would have done if it was part of a cup magic weekend. We can't get fans to go to doncaster for a semi-final, we arent going to get them to go to coventry or london for a quarter final.

I honestly just don't see it as the solution. I don't see the problem that having them all together solves. I don't see it working in a practical sense when there is, by definition little planning and little follow up that can happen through the clubs through a cup comp, and im not sure what niche it fills, im not sure who is crying out for a visit to Coventry for games they currently can't be bothered to see.

It also, imo, completely misses the problem the challenge cup faces. The early rounds are viewed as unimportant the final a day out. This doesnt even try to address those issues. Its just another value proposition. Cheap tickets and bulk discounts. I think that is entirely the wrong message to send out.

You are only looking at it from a ‘wouod current fans attend’ viewpoint Scotchy. Current fans aren’t turning out for the Challenge Cup, especially as there are 12 SL clubs in last 16. It’s the 4th opportunity to see another SL team this season in the same old place. City of Manc for example provides a bit of glitz and glamour. And you get a bundled day out. See Saints v Cas and Warrington v Toronto at same time as Widnes v Leeds. When it actually means more SL points than when there is still the Super 8s and play-odds to come. Make it really different. Not same old, same old. 

By creating an event you can bring SL fans and other sports fans. Got to be worth trying. Other wise the Challenge Cup is just fading away. Make it a peak summer event like 20-20. Get people going who wouldn’t go to a 5 day test match in cricket. Build on our heritage instead of letting it slip away.

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12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But people dont attend SL clubs v championship clubs in greater numbers. This variety idea simply isnt borne out in reality. Whether its the challenge cup or Super 8s, SL clubs v championship/L1 clubs are almost universally the lowest attended games of the year.

Another bundled day out is the problem. People see it as bundled because it has little value. Especially if it isnt all televised. They think you have bundled them together because individually they dont have value so why should they care?

Especially when they see on TV even the 10-15k who would watch the TV game rattling around the city of manchester stadium (which would be a massive increase on what we generally see)

The challenge cup needs to find its place in the season, find a structure that gives it flow and momentum, it needs to be a tough competition to win, it has to be a meaningful competition to win. It needs the final to be one of the biggest sporting days of the year, it needs to be a massive event (in terms of presentation) and things will flow from there.

Tickets are as cheap as they realistically can be, its not a value for money issue.

I’ve never suggested value for money. Bundling is simply a reflection that there is more of interest happening across the weekend than at one venue that is replicating numerous other fixtures there that season. I don’t know why you keep focusing on SL v Champ, as those are unlikely in the QFs, and those Champ teams that get there deserve it. Toronto and Leigh they were both value in the round prior. We need to expand our big city appeal. SL is our bread and butter. Let’s use our exposure on the BBC tone a bit more big time. Red button is televised, especially when it is promoted on bbc 1 or 2 games beforehand 

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