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England Squad Announced


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7 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

He isn't playing well enough. McMeeken, Millington, Holmes, Milner and Cook have all made more metres than him and that is limited to the Cas forwards, nevermind the rest of the league. 

Comparing him to Thompson (the least well established prop selected), he has 50% of Thompson's metres, 57% of Thompson's tackles, 54% of his tackle busts, and an average gain that is 0.13m more than Thompson. How does any of this balance out his terrible discipline? 

I'll start by saying I think stats have a limited value in judging a players performance.  Especially quantative stats like you have used.  The metres and tackle bust stats are weighted in Thomsons favour because he has taken alot more carries.  It appears to be surprisingly hard to find appearance information but I assume Thompson has played more games.

That been said.  I'd argue the stats support Watts if anything.

Carries              LT 280 LW 164

Tackle Busts   LT 26    LW 17

So LT breaks a tackle every 10.7 carries compared to every 9.6 for LW

Av Gain                 LT 7.74  LW 7.82

Offloads               LT 8       LW 17

Errors                   LT 9       LW 5

Tackles               LT 458   LW 342

Missed tackles  LT 26     LW 16

So LT has missed a tackle every 17.6, LW missed 1 every 21.3

Penalties             LT 13     LW 7

From that you could summise that Watts is a more effective ball carrier (Av Gain/Tackle busts),  is able to offload a lot more, misses less tackles and makes a similar number of errors and conceded penalties.

Now like I said at the start, stats only tell part of a story.  They don't account for key things a prop does (ball handling/running lines/winning collisions/wrestle).  Nor the context of some of the performances.  Those kind of things you only judge by watching the players and this creates a natural bias towards the players you watch most (usually your teams players). 

To be honest I'm not suggesting that Watts should be in over Thomson (infact  if I'd probably take Hill out before Thompson, but that might just be because he seems to get on my nerves at present, stat wise he massively out performs Thomson and Watts).  My initial comment 'that Watts may consider himself unlucky not to be selected' was just a general comment that he's performing extremely well and could quite easily have been included.  I certainly don't think his discipline should be a excluding factor.

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https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/103744354/Kiwis-forward-Russell-Packer-unlikely-to-be-part-of-Denver-test-due-to-conviction

This article was a while ago but it indicated then that due to his criminal conviction Packer may have been unable to travel to america due to a previous criminal conviction. Also goes on to mention Kenny Edwards as being in a similar boat (though he was a bolter anyway), if this is in fact the case with players of similar history i'd hazard a guess that Manu Ma'u and Suaia Matagi (Also less likely anyway) wouldn't be able to participate either. Can't think of any others from NZ off the top of my head that may be strange exemptions for similar reasons.

 

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12 hours ago, Gates1 said:

I'll start by saying I think stats have a limited value in judging a players performance.  Especially quantative stats like you have used.  The metres and tackle bust stats are weighted in Thomsons favour because he has taken alot more carries.  It appears to be surprisingly hard to find appearance information but I assume Thompson has played more games.

That been said.  I'd argue the stats support Watts if anything.

Carries              LT 280 LW 164

Tackle Busts   LT 26    LW 17

So LT breaks a tackle every 10.7 carries compared to every 9.6 for LW

Av Gain                 LT 7.74  LW 7.82

Offloads               LT 8       LW 17

Errors                   LT 9       LW 5

Tackles               LT 458   LW 342

Missed tackles  LT 26     LW 16

So LT has missed a tackle every 17.6, LW missed 1 every 21.3

Penalties             LT 13     LW 7

From that you could summise that Watts is a more effective ball carrier (Av Gain/Tackle busts),  is able to offload a lot more, misses less tackles and makes a similar number of errors and conceded penalties.

Now like I said at the start, stats only tell part of a story.  They don't account for key things a prop does (ball handling/running lines/winning collisions/wrestle).  Nor the context of some of the performances.  Those kind of things you only judge by watching the players and this creates a natural bias towards the players you watch most (usually your teams players). 

To be honest I'm not suggesting that Watts should be in over Thomson (infact  if I'd probably take Hill out before Thompson, but that might just be because he seems to get on my nerves at present, stat wise he massively out performs Thomson and Watts).  My initial comment 'that Watts may consider himself unlucky not to be selected' was just a general comment that he's performing extremely well and could quite easily have been included.  I certainly don't think his discipline should be a excluding factor.

Watts warrants a place in the Knights, even if its just to gauge how he reacts or buys in to WBs work ethic.  

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Shaul, Johnstone, Gildart, Shenton, JJB, Richardson, Myler, Taylor, Clarke, Hill. McMeekin, Ward, Watts Subs Houghton, Milner, Sutton, Green

I know there’s some fillers/fringe players in there but there’s also some deserving (on form) players in too.

Tomkins, Eden, McShane, Ashurst all possibles 

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14 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Shaul, Johnstone, Gildart, Shenton, JJB, Richardson, Myler, Taylor, Clarke, Hill. McMeekin, Ward, Watts Subs Houghton, Milner, Sutton, Green

I know there’s some fillers/fringe players in there but there’s also some deserving (on form) players in too.

Tomkins, Eden, McShane, Ashurst all possibles 

wow.

 

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17 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Shaul, Johnstone, Gildart, Shenton, JJB, Richardson, Myler, Taylor, Clarke, Hill. McMeekin, Ward, Watts Subs Houghton, Milner, Sutton, Green

I know there’s some fillers/fringe players in there but there’s also some deserving (on form) players in too.

Tomkins, Eden, McShane, Ashurst all possibles 

Not sure even David Waite would have considered Jamies Jones-Buchanan for a wing spot.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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On 6/12/2018 at 2:48 PM, OMEGA said:

Shaul, Johnstone, Gildart, Shenton, JJB, Richardson, Myler, Taylor, Clarke, Hill. McMeekin, Ward, Watts Subs Houghton, Milner, Sutton, Green

I know there’s some fillers/fringe players in there but there’s also some deserving (on form) players in too.

Tomkins, Eden, McShane, Ashurst all possibles 

Did you mean Ben Jones Bishop for Wing instead of JJB?    This list while I would not pick any of them bar Richardson and maybe Johnstone and McKeeken, does show England have significant depth.

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1 hour ago, Southerner80 said:

Did you mean Ben Jones Bishop for Wing instead of JJB?    This list while I would not pick any of them bar Richardson and maybe Johnstone and McKeeken, does show England have significant depth.

Yes, I obviously meant BJB on the wing.

As I said in my original post, some are fillers and fringe players but others have been overlooked despite being in superb form. Others have missed out and someone playing out of position will play instead.

Danny Richardson is the form England qualified half back

Darryl Clarke is in amazing form and is right up there with Roby

Gildart has been very good for 2nd placed Wigan yet will miss out to Bateman who’ll play out of position

 

 

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On 6/13/2018 at 5:41 AM, MattSantos said:

wow.

 

Sort of shows why the Knights could be a good idea and could put up some good opposition to smaller nations and still have some names in it that people would know from strong super league performances

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On 6/11/2018 at 12:20 PM, Jim Prendle said:

Another one I can never quite understand is Whitehead. For me he is no better than some of the other guys such as McMeeken and Milner, and the only reason he gets in the team is because he plays in the NRL, and they don't.

At the World Cup he was in the top 10 for both metres made and tackles made, absolute workhorse and solid as a rock defensively. Attacking wise he was class before he went to Australia but defensively he's went to another level since going over. Him, McMeeken and Milner are completely different players 

 

19511433_1375790279214260_3955754964281790455_n.jpg

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6 hours ago, RL is the future said:

At the World Cup he was in the top 10 for both metres made and tackles made, absolute workhorse and solid as a rock defensively. Attacking wise he was class before he went to Australia but defensively he's went to another level since going over. Him, McMeeken and Milner are completely different players 

Maybe one day we will see some of this amazing form for England then.

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3 hours ago, Jim Prendle said:

Maybe one day we will see some of this amazing form for England then.

Other than being an excellent metre maker and defensively very very solid. What more do you want from your second rower?

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Sat watching the Warriors Cowboys game.

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck just scored a great try.

The commentator then mentioned that he is not going to be going to Denver to play for the Kiwis and neither is Shaun Johnson (also playing today).

The summariser (not sure who it is) then said that they were "putting their clubs first and quite right too".

Great!

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4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Sat watching the Warriors Cowboys game.

Roger Tuivasa-Sheck just scored a great try.

The commentator then mentioned that he is not going to be going to Denver to play for the Kiwis and neither is Shaun Johnson (also playing today).

The summariser (not sure who it is) then said that they were "putting their clubs first and quite right too".

Great!

#### me who needs enemies? 

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Scott Taylor in for Burgess apparently, not been following it much  it I presume it's the Sam variety?

                                                                     Hull FC....The Sons of God...
                                                                     (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday)
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I see Clint Newton is being shipped over to Denver, paid for by England & NZ, to see how we will look after NRL players.  No doubt he’ll enjoy all the freebies and benefits and it will be interesting to see whether he challenges the team Doctors.

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For the pragmatists,Danny Richardson not ready for Denver,or it's too early.Is there a cooler head under pressure at the moment?goal kick from touch 22-22,goal kick to win .22 years old, for me he has that rare ability that comes along now an again,he revels under pressure a half back has been forged that can mix it at the top

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10 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

Richardson is very inexperienced still (and plays accordingly). Clarke is a strong runner but very limited as a player. Gildart is good but you wouldn't pick him over Percival. 

Richardson is steering the runaway league leaders around the field and showed again tonight that he has the temperament to handle the pressure. We’re not blessed with quality at half back and I’m pleased to hear that he was strongly considered but left out at Sts request.

Clarkes an outstanding player and to dismiss him as anything less sounds a bit colour blind. He’s arguably in better form than Roby at the moment and is younger so could be a better bet for the future.

Youre right I wouldn’t pick Gildart ahead of Percival but then Percival is a left centre and a Gildart is a right centre so why would you think that anyway. I’d certainly pick Gildart in the centres ahead of Bateman though and arguably ahead of Conner as well.

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3 minutes ago, telliner said:

For the pragmatists,Danny Richardson not ready for Denver,or it's too early.Is there a cooler head under pressure at the moment?goal kick from touch 22-22,goal kick to win .22 years old, for me he has that rare ability that comes along now an again,he revels under pressure a half back has been forged that can mix it at the top

If he was fit I would pick Sneyd every time for the reasons you mention there. He is unflappable.

But in his absence I would have much prefered Richardson over Williams. He isnt the finished article by a long way, but he has the potential to be anything. 

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5 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

I think his temperament is great, I think he is genuinely just too inexperienced for now. It's easy to look at the last 5 minutes of today's game and argue Richardson should be playing. In the preceding 75  minutes, he created one try and didn't do much else. Multiple times we reached last tackle without putting a kick in (by accident rather than design), we picked wrong options, and our kicking game generally was poor. That's fine, he's still a good young player with a massive future ahead of him, I think we're just building him up a bit too much at the minute on the basis of hope and a few exciting highlights.

Clarke is an outstanding runner when his forwards are on the front foot. His decision-making is worse than Roby's, as is his game management, his ability to tie up the markers and so on. Great runner, just limited in terms of other aspects of his game. Williams on the bench can run from dummy half, he just also covers the halves (and fullback at a push) too.

Gildart has played all year at left centre. 

It's not really a choice between those two though given Williams won't start in the halves. It's a choice between Lomax and Richardson, and Lomax has been comfortably the better of the two so far this year.

Yes you are probably right, although my team would have been Widdop at FB and Lomax/Richardson in the halves.

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