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League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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Just a pointless personal opinion but when I see Brian Berwick on the BBC website he looks like what he is , yesterday’s man taking cash from the game for not a lot (if anything ) in return. The RFL have been shocking for a long time and My personally would rather the game go down with a fight rather than the current situation of death by a thousand cuts

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Just a pointless personal opinion but when I see Brian Berwick on the BBC website he looks like what he is , yesterday’s man taking cash from the game for not a lot (if anything ) in return. The RFL have been shocking for a long time and My personally would rather the game go down with a fight rather than the current situation of death by a thousand cuts

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The away support argument is losing its relevance in the modern game, at Warrington the three local derbies bring good away levels but with big games on Thursday and Friday the other clubs have levels dropping year on year. You are also going for a 12 team competition where if there are four overseas teams in the top league then you can see there being 14 or 16 teams. 

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Never in over 50 years of being involved in this great game have I felt so despondant and worried what the future holds for the game. 

That applies to all aspects of the sport in this country, having being involved for a lot of years I have watched and witnessed the decline in the community game in all its factions from the kids to youth to open age, and the numbers who go to watch and support their local clubs is dwindling year on year. 

Now we have this situation whereby the owners of our biggest clubs are seemingly circling the wagons around wanting to protect the assests that is the Sky money, I have no doubt whatsoever that at the termination of this current deal, they will not be letting very much slip their hands, the smokescreen of we will keep funding Champ and League 1 till the termination of the current deal is if Adey is correct and it is contractual they cannot withhold. It would have been very easy to say come the next TV contract we will continue to support the divisions below SL, but they chose not to, simply in my opinion they have no intention to do so.

As Mr Giantstrides says, if it was our investments we would want to protect them also, no argument with that, probably that is why the "employee" at Leeds Rhinos sees the situation somewhat differently and he is looking at the bigger picture, not the insular one. And what about the owners of those clubs below SL, their investment in numbers may not be as great but percentage wise of their disposable income may be in excess of those who sat at the top table on Tuesday, will they carry on without the assistance they currently recieve, when the "big boys" are demanding even more, I would not blame them if they walked.

I related to the community game earlier and the dire straits it is heading in, if in places like Halifax, Dewbury, Batley, Oldham, Leigh, West and South Cumbria etc the focal point of their 'professional' club is no more, it will accelerate that decline into oblivion, no more focus for aspiring players like the Burgess's, Sinfields, mabe even Widdops who was a player before emigrating, etc, etc, there are thousands of examples, they are all not born in SL clubs towns, there are not and nowhere near enough British born players to populate SL now, if the door is shut on potential places they can originate from it will be a calamity.

I am getting that downheartened with where I believe the game is going, I would love to see the door slammed in the face of Leneghan, McManus and Co for Sky to offer them a pittance if anything and let them fend for themselves as I honestly believe they are going to tell the rest of the game to do.

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8 hours ago, neilhutch said:

My thoughts on the structure as it exists now and as it may exist soon.

It is quite likely that Superleague will have only nine English teams, out of twelve, next season, with the strong probability that Toronto and Toulouse will be joining the top level. With talk of a New York team being 'fast tracked' into the competition in the near future, that will mean four teams in Superleague that bring no measurable away support with them. The remaining (by then) eight English teams will see their match day incomes drop further. An expansion to 14 teams is needed but with a significant increase in TV money in order to support all clubs, including the English ones. Whether Sky (or another provider - even Amazon!) would be willing to stump up is surely down to the negotiating skills of the RFL team.

What’s it got to do with the RFL? The SL clubs will want to negotiate their own deal.


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I think the strange thing about all these discussions around club security/relegation possibilities is that the salary cap was brought in presumably as a leveller, and so in theory every season there should be an equal chance of any team going down (assuming each team could afford to max out on wages). Whatever the structure, if the salary cap does its job, teams are theoretically relegation (and also play off) candidates every year. 

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I do like the idea of a 14 team Super League with 2 places reserved for French teams and 2 for North American teams. English clubs still get 10 which isn't too dissimilar to now anyway. 

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26 minutes ago, overtheborder said:

I think the strange thing about all these discussions around club security/relegation possibilities is that the salary cap was brought in presumably as a leveller, and so in theory every season there should be an equal chance of any team going down (assuming each team could afford to max out on wages). Whatever the structure, if the salary cap does its job, teams are theoretically relegation (and also play off) candidates every year. 

Quite correct OTB, but that is not the reality of it, is it, no more proof required than only 4 SL winners in 22 years, the salery cap really does what it was designed to do doesn't it?

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43 minutes ago, overtheborder said:

I think the strange thing about all these discussions around club security/relegation possibilities is that the salary cap was brought in presumably as a leveller, and so in theory every season there should be an equal chance of any team going down assuming each team could afford to max out on wages...

....and there we have the flaw in that reasoning

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16 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Is this the Saints who were borrowing players from HKR?

Because they had 16 lads from their junior set up out with long term injuries


This is captain Juncker speaking. The EU gravy train is about to enter Brussels, so will all Brits please exit at the next stop

To all remaining passengers, thank you for your continued custom and contributions to my pension fund

Kind Regards - YOUR PRESIDENT !

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23 hours ago, Bearman said:

A multi millionaire has come forward and has pumped a significant amount of money bringing the game to a major city in a whole new continent. He speaks of opening up a new market and bringing in new media partners and growing our sport away from the M62.

What is the response of the "visionaries" at the top of SLE?

Have they thrown out a welcome to this bold initiative?Far from it, they have studiously ignored it.As Parky has often quoted they have still not accepted his club and his vision. Why?

Because they have some very very small players in English sport that know that they could not compete with any growth away from the M62.

It's not "growth" for goodness sake. All Argyle did was buy himself an English team and play them in Canada because that is where he lives, if he had lived here he would have bought Widnes. His club is a massive loss making exercise. Real growth would be a $$$multi-millions Canadian TV deal, real growth would be a team of Canadians playing professionally. 

The opposite of "growth" is "decline". As our player base "declines", and as our TV money is set to "decline" we have come to this sorry state of wanting to take money away from the lower divisions and shrink SL to 10 clubs to shore up Superleague.

Perez himself said he would grow the player pool using grid iron players who were available in their thousands. Perez himself said he would grow the TV income by seeking a massive North American TV deal. That is the "growth" he himself promised. Two years later he and Argyle have produced no growth by their very own definition, and the failed New York application leaves TWP wholly isolated as there are no more applications from North America.

Lenegan told Toulouse they would not enter Superleague unless they "Developed French players capable of playing Superleague and obtained a significant paying TV deal" So you can see from that Lenegan defines growth as more quality players and more TV money. Rimmer told Toronto in January that if they won promotion they would not be guaranteed to go up. This is exactly for the same reasons Toulouse won't either.

I know all those who dream of growth will go on deriding these clear facts, but even Rowley understood the message from Rimmer responding by offering for Argyle to forsake any "TV money" for the other clubs to share and sending Burroughs and Ngwati to London Skolars to be "developed". This reaction is proof positive TWP understand they need to grow the game's finances and player pool so why don't you and others understand this??

The interesting thing about Lenegan's grab for power is he has seemingly secured 11 Superleague votes. He has dropped the 10 club idea for now. It appears very clear that if Toulouse and Toronto were both to win promotion from the eights, then this would have to be "reviewed" as Rimmer says. That review must centre on whether promoting TWP and TO will increase the TV money and player pool. It clearly will not and so it is unlikely they will be promoted.

This is moreso because their promotion as it stands means someone like HKR may have to be relegated, and you have to be on another planet if you believe this will ever happen when Hudgell is Lenegans right hand man on legal matters, and when SL clubs plotted to increase SL to accommodate them if HKR had not got back via the eights. Equally it appears clubs like Salford and Widnes have given Lenegan their vote. He is hardly likely to go on to hang them out to dry allowing TO and TWP to replace them is he?

Once again for clarity every club including Toronto and Toulouse and Perez knows and accepts "growth" is significantly expanding the SL player pool and the SL TV money.

Especially Perez who himself said there would be no American TV money unless Superleague contained at least 5 North American clubs. By his own admission TWP cannot grow the game on their own and they ARE on their own.

Edited by The Parksider

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14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Dummy spitting from Hetherington yet again as his Red Hall power base is further eroded.

With wood gone and Rimmer nearly gone he's lost his influence at the top, plus with the RFL leaving Leeds he feels further threatened. 

Not so much a power grab from the other 11, more an erosion of power of the 1.

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This is captain Juncker speaking. The EU gravy train is about to enter Brussels, so will all Brits please exit at the next stop

To all remaining passengers, thank you for your continued custom and contributions to my pension fund

Kind Regards - YOUR PRESIDENT !

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am getting that downheartened with where I believe the game is going, I would love to see the door slammed in the face of Leneghan, McManus and Co for Sky to offer them a pittance if anything and let them fend for themselves as I honestly believe they are going to tell the rest of the game to do.

Interesting that you want SL to have to fend for themselves. Do you also then want the Championship and League One to have to fend for themselves? Or do you still want to rely on free money from SL teams at the same time?

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Never in over 50 years of being involved in this great game have I felt so despondant and worried what the future holds for the game. 

That applies to all aspects of the sport in this country, having being involved for a lot of years I have watched and witnessed the decline in the community game in all its factions from the kids to youth to open age, and the numbers who go to watch and support their local clubs is dwindling year on year. 

Now we have this situation whereby the owners of our biggest clubs are seemingly circling the wagons around wanting to protect the assests that is the Sky money, I have no doubt whatsoever that at the termination of this current deal, they will not be letting very much slip their hands, the smokescreen of we will keep funding Champ and League 1 till the termination of the current deal is if Adey is correct and it is contractual they cannot withhold. It would have been very easy to say come the next TV contract we will continue to support the divisions below SL, but they chose not to, simply in my opinion they have no intention to do so.

As Mr Giantstrides says, if it was our investments we would want to protect them also, no argument with that, probably that is why the "employee" at Leeds Rhinos sees the situation somewhat differently and he is looking at the bigger picture, not the insular one. And what about the owners of those clubs below SL, their investment in numbers may not be as great but percentage wise of their disposable income may be in excess of those who sat at the top table on Tuesday, will they carry on without the assistance they currently recieve, when the "big boys" are demanding even more, I would not blame them if they walked.

I related to the community game earlier and the dire straits it is heading in, if in places like Halifax, Dewbury, Batley, Oldham, Leigh, West and South Cumbria etc the focal point of their 'professional' club is no more, it will accelerate that decline into oblivion, no more focus for aspiring players like the Burgess's, Sinfields, mabe even Widdops who was a player before emigrating, etc, etc, there are thousands of examples, they are all not born in SL clubs towns, there are not and nowhere near enough British born players to populate SL now, if the door is shut on potential places they can originate from it will be a calamity.

I am getting that downheartened with where I believe the game is going, I would love to see the door slammed in the face of Leneghan, McManus and Co for Sky to offer them a pittance if anything and let them fend for themselves as I honestly believe they are going to tell the rest of the game to do.

DO you think there are any characteristics that would mean a club would be welcomed into Super League?


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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I see a lot of people who support/follow and believe in the importance of lower league teams are saying that they’re worried about the lack of funding from the Super League TV money should they decide to not renew any deal with the lower league teams beyond 2021.

Is there anything stopping the lower league teams from negotiating their own TV/live streaming deal with a production company after 2021?

It seems to me, from the outside looking in, that there’s a reliance on this money and now the rug from under their feet is being threatened to be pulled, the lower league teams are kicking up a fuss. Does this not serve as a warning that they could/should be taking more of an interest in their own housekeeping rather than letting somebody else do it, where there could be potential issues in future? 

 

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9 hours ago, GIANTSTRIDES said:

Sooner or later people are going to have to face up to the fact that what this game is really about is SKY money, Without that we have no game,

so what you are saying without sky the game would have died in 95

what this game  is about greedy clubs who didn't have a pot to pss  in before summer rugby and some now who still  don't even with it wanting to keep all the sky money

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19 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Dummy spitting from Hetherington yet again as his Red Hall power base is further eroded.

With wood gone and Rimmer nearly gone he's lost his influence at the top, plus with the RFL leaving Leeds he feels further threatened. 

Not so much a power grab from the other 11, more an erosion of power of the 1.

It's silly from McManus. Unnecessarily personal attack that cedes the moral high ground and refocuses on the bun fight instead of Elstone and his plans.

They didnt need to engage on this issue and now the argument is stuck on this personal issue and not the merits of the plan. 

I bet GH is delighted by this statement.

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I am amazed at the negativity some fans have about Toulouse and Toronto. If ever a competition needed these additions it is the RFL. 

It seems from reading this is the complaints about the threat to traditional areas. I hear that argument but the economics are that funding to the game would be greatly improved if broadcasters can demonstrate the game exists outside the M62.

toulouse seem to be getting French footballers coming through. Toronto is a different project that will take many years. Melbourne storm don’t produce many Victorian footballers but have been massive for the game in Australia because they recruited quality personnel and raised the profile of the game through success.

As a league fan I don’t want players going to Union. Take the money out of the game and that is what will happen. The Englishman playing in the NRL have been fantastic and it shows that with more money in the game they will stay in the code and preferrably at home.

Crowds? Well they are low. 1000 people through the gate is unsustainable. The six best SL clubs can corner the market the population and the money but sooner or later the well will dry up.

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11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's silly from McManus. Unnecessarily personal attack that cedes the moral high ground and refocuses on the bun fight instead of Elstone and his plans.

They didnt need to engage on this issue and now the argument is stuck on this personal issue and not the merits of the plan. 

I bet GH is delighted by this statement.

I’ve read it again, there’s absolutely no inkling of any sort of “personal attack” in that statement from McManus. 

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’ve read it again, there’s absolutely no inkling of any sort of “personal attack” in that statement from McManus. 

Don't be silly.

 

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Please be more explicit Bob. 

I was deliberately vague.

On these forums, there is a lot of despair.  There is agreement that something must be  done.  Ian Gidds above says that he would rather fight.  But fighting hurts.  I think the amateur game is going to have a far worse crisis in the next few years than it has already.  I have my own thoughts, but they are unpopular with all sides:

Traditionalist

- Give up on London as a venue for a big club.  It is already carved up.  There are niches left, but they are there for smaller clubs.  Let Broncos propser in the second flight as an alternative sport festival, without bothering with partisanship.

Expansionist

- The game is going downhill and cannot maintain a national 12 team league.  It has to cut the number of teams or import viable commerical clubs.

In this light, a club being welcomed into Super League would have to have a far better commercial basis than most exisiting Super League clubs.  They would have to offer a new market and not need a slice of TV contract.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Don't be silly.

 

Indeed, a whole press release about what one person said is absolutely an attack.

Cool heads are needed here.

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