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League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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26 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I see a lot of people who support/follow and believe in the importance of lower league teams are saying that they’re worried about the lack of funding from the Super League TV money should they decide to not renew any deal with the lower league teams beyond 2021.

Is there anything stopping the lower league teams from negotiating their own TV/live streaming deal with a production company after 2021?

It seems to me, from the outside looking in, that there’s a reliance on this money and now the rug from under their feet is being threatened to be pulled, the lower league teams are kicking up a fuss. Does this not serve as a warning that they could/should be taking more of an interest in their own housekeeping rather than letting somebody else do it, where there could be potential issues in future? 

 

Oliver, is this whole thing not about there being a reliance from SL on the TV money, as Dr Koukash explained there are only 3 viable SL clubs, take the funding from the other 9 and watch them wither like a flower without water.

Please tell me about the good housekeeping from all but Leeds, Saints and Wire then I can pass that infornation on.

We can call it the "Professional RL Survival Pack and How to Keep on Going" it will not be a very thick book, perhaps a one liner, 'get your funding'

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52 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Hudgell is Lenegans right hand man on legal matters

Just curious, what makes you believe this to be a fact?

 


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’m not. There’s nothing “personal” and no sense of an “attack” either. 

I saw it as a "putting the record straight" type of statement.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I was deliberately vague.

On these forums, there is a lot of despair.  There is agreement that something must be  done.  Ian Gidds above says that he would rather fight.  But fighting hurts.  I think the amateur game is going to have a far worse crisis in the next few years than it has already.  I have my own thoughts, but they are unpopular with all sides:

Traditionalist

- Give up on London as a venue for a big club.  It is already carved up.  There are niches left, but they are there for smaller clubs.  Let Broncos propser in the second flight as an alternative sport festival, without bothering with partisanship.

Expansionist

- The game is going downhill and cannot maintain a national 12 team league.  It has to cut the number of teams or import viable commerical clubs.

In this light, a club being welcomed into Super League would have to have a far better commercial basis than most exisiting Super League clubs.  They would have to offer a new market and not need a slice of TV contract.

I want to fight for the survival and the revival of the game at all levels, I’m pro expansion (Executive member of Red Star Belgrade) and pro all levels of RL.  Thing is we have been on the slide for decades and many of us on here have been shouting it loud and clear(Maybe too much like Arthur Scargill) .

Hetherington spoke up as a businessman who oversees a very successful club both on and off the field , maybe he spoke up to protect his profit making company whilst the others are speaking up to lessen their losses?

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31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's silly from McManus. Unnecessarily personal attack that cedes the moral high ground and refocuses on the bun fight instead of Elstone and his plans.

They didnt need to engage on this issue and now the argument is stuck on this personal issue and not the merits of the plan. 

I bet GH is delighted by this statement.

Where's the personal attack?  To me that statement just points out all the inaccuracies of Hetherington childish rant 


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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19 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’ve read it again, there’s absolutely no inkling of any sort of “personal attack” in that statement from McManus. 

It's silly to pretend words like distortion, phrases like destructive in intent and the inference that equality 'doesn't sit easily with Gary' aren't personal nor attacks. They clearly aren't neutral phrases and are clearly intended to attack.

Whether right or wrong it's a fight thats not needed.

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48 minutes ago, Moove said:

Interesting that you want SL to have to fend for themselves. Do you also then want the Championship and League One to have to fend for themselves? Or do you still want to rely on free money from SL teams at the same time?

What free money? This present deal breaks down as follows (cuertosy of Spud):-

The five-year deal breaks down as follows:

The amount being paid for club and international matches will be £182,200,000 in total.

Of that total, £146,760,000, or 80 per cent, will go to Super League clubs.

£14,576,000 or 8 per cent, will go to the twelve Championship clubs in the second tier.

£1,822,000, or one per cent, will go to the Championship One clubs.

£20,042,000, or 11 per cent, will be paid for Challenge Cup and internationals coverage.

We really are in a very very dark place, if the premier teams do not see any mileage in supporting the rest of the game, and seemingly desiring to withold that meagre amount from any new contract, they must be more desperate than they are admitting to.

 

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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's silly to pretend words like distortion, phrases like destructive in intent and the inference that equality 'doesn't sit easily with Gary' aren't personal nor attacks. They clearly aren't neutral phrases and are clearly intended to attack.

Whether right or wrong it's a fight thats not needed.

Remind us again who started all this with a public rant because they didn't get their own way

The only one who looks silly and has launched personal attacks is Hetherington 


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1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Where's the personal attack?  To me that statement just points out all the inaccuracies of Hetherington childish rant 

Well that certainly has me convinced.

Whether Hetherington is right wrong or somewhere in between is irrelevant. 

It's entirely the wrong battle. The battle the clubs need to win is to implement Elstone and his plans not to prove what a big meanie Gary Hetherington is. 

As I say Hetherington will be utterly delighted by this statement overshadowing Elstones positive performance last night and the argument being refocused on who did what to who.

Look out for an interview tonight with GH focussing on that and the process the SL clubs have circumvented and how badly they have treated the lower leagues and how duplicitous it was to make those statements at the press conference

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1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Remind us again who started all this with a public rant because they didn't get their own way

The only one who looks silly and has launched personal attacks is Hetherington 

Yes this he said she said is exactly where you would want the argument if your complaint was about process

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Oliver, do you think Widnes,Salford,Huddersfield, Wakefield all S.L. clubs should look after their own housekeeping and not rely on other clubs to help them out?You seem to think that if you are not in S.L. you should look after yourself.Please explain why you think the above four should be in S.L. and mollycoddled.

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I think it is too simplistic to be making out that this is purely a battle for Sky money. If the SLE clubs wanted to play hard ball, they could have in the past and refused to share any, and could go that way in future, but there is no evidence to suggest this is the case. One Champ Chairman raised the fact that they wanted to give a million quid less, but that is not cutting off of the Champ clubs, it is a negotiation. 

The points that were made in the press release are sensible. I have worked in banking for approaching 20 years years and during that time I have worked in Partnership/Joint Venture roles - and what they were saying about focus is absolutely correct. Working with two hats on isn't perfect, although it can work well and be a good way of working efficiently. I have always welcomed SLE taking charge of driving SL forward as I don't think efficiency should be our main focus. The point about employees sole focus being on making SL the biggest and best it can be is absolutely valid. So the creation of an SLE exec in principle is a sound one, although I'm not convinced having the clubs so hands on is a good idea, maybe this will settle down once Elstone gets a team round him.

On the structure point, I don't think they articulated this very well, particularly Lenegan with his 'we are frightened to death of losing 4 SL clubs in one year' - because they would then be replaced by 4 clubs who would be SL clubs by default - and who knows, the SL may be stronger. I think they should have kept the message around uncertainty and jeopardy being no good for long term investment. Lenegan weakened the argument in my view.

But the important point on structure is that if in this new world SLE are focusing solely on making SL a success, then they have taken the view that the S8's are not good for SL. Now the Championship clubs have decided that they are good for them, and you can see why, some of the clubs got bumper crowds in the middle 8's, but SL crowds went down, so who is right there? Who wins that argument? Ultimately, the ones who have the money, it is perverse for that to be any other way. If SLE have decided that the 8's are not working (despite me personally enjoying them) then it is right that they go. Whether we like it or not, the Champ clubs were the minor partner in that initiative. 

The positive that is being overlooked is that the clubs retained P&R, and gave no indication of a closed shop on its way, which surely is one of the most contentious issues here? When asked directly about clubs outside SL offering value to SL, they were quite clear that they believed there could be and that is why they kept P&R.  That is a real positive for the Champ clubs.

The Championship was a great comp when it had the Grand Final which took a team up to SL. It had more of a clear identity and purpose. 

We need to make sure that anger over the process doesn't lead to rash judgements and decisions, it is possible to object and still take a rational decision.

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well that certainly has me convinced.

Whether Hetherington is right wrong or somewhere in between is irrelevant. 

It's entirely the wrong battle. The battle the clubs need to win is to implement Elstone and his plans not to prove what a big meanie Gary Hetherington is. 

As I say Hetherington will be utterly delighted by this statement overshadowing Elstones positive performance last night and the argument being refocused on who did what to who.

Look out for an interview tonight with GH focussing on that and the process the SL clubs have circumvented and how badly they have treated the lower leagues and how duplicitous it was to make those statements at the press conference

Absolutely. McManus, who had impressed me so far, needed to rise above it. It wasn't a battle that needed to be had, apparently it is 11v1.

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Absolutely. McManus, who had impressed me so far, needed to rise above it. It wasn't a battle that needed to be had, apparently it is 11v1.

Shock, horror, club chairman releases statement setting the record straight by pointing out inaccuracies in a public rant.

Some of the Hetherington lovers on here need to take their heads out if his backside


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12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

On the structure point, I don't think they articulated this very well, particularly Lenegan with his 'we are frightened to death of losing 4 SL clubs in one year' - because they would then be replaced by 4 clubs who would be SL clubs by default - and who knows, the SL may be stronger. I think they should have kept the message around uncertainty and jeopardy being no good for long term investment. Lenegan weakened the argument in my view.

 

That isn't what he was getting at, he was on about clubs failing to invest for the future because there was too much of a battle to survive the present. Over a third of your senior clubs looking to just buy in the best they can afford to try and survive in SL and sod everything else is not a great bit of forward planning. At the other end you have the championship clubs over cooking because they see an opportunity that in reality isn't going to do them much good unless they can somehow get into SL and immediately become a top 4/6 club. They could do it with a lot of financial clout, but it has failed so many times you lose count*

 

*Cue the whatabouts, a few times in over 50 years of P&R has it not been the case.

Edited by Padge

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

What free money? This present deal breaks down as follows (cuertosy of Spud):-

The five-year deal breaks down as follows:

The amount being paid for club and international matches will be £182,200,000 in total.

Of that total, £146,760,000, or 80 per cent, will go to Super League clubs.

£14,576,000 or 8 per cent, will go to the twelve Championship clubs in the second tier.

£1,822,000, or one per cent, will go to the Championship One clubs.

£20,042,000, or 11 per cent, will be paid for Challenge Cup and internationals coverage.

We really are in a very very dark place, if the premier teams do not see any mileage in supporting the rest of the game, and seemingly desiring to withold that meagre amount from any new contract, they must be more desperate than they are admitting to.

 

You might have also added the number of matches each payment was to cover, which from memory was something like 60, 11, 1 and not sure. The money to be paid to the lower leagues was in payment for matches. I am sick and tired of some folk saying it was just a handout.

Whether the lower leagues could have secured  such funding by selling their TV rights themselves, or whether Sky paid for the rights to stop any competition, are separate arguments.

Personally, I fear that until the lower leagues form an umbrella body that they all respect and will empower to negotiate - be it for media rights or against SL or to plan a coherent strategy for the professional game outside of SL - instead of leaving it to “The RFL”, they will be divided and conquered. 

And they had better chuffing well get on with it pronto.

PS The actual number of games was higher than I recalled l- see a post later that improves on mine.

Edited by Adeybull
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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We have different players in the market these days with Toronto, Toulouse and potentially Red Star Belgrade, we need to keep the drawbridge open to let these (and others) in to grow the sport and revenues .

we have a number of fading clubs that show little or no sign of revival and we need to find many ways to envigorate the game at all levels, going away from previous thinking and actions seems the only way.

 

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4 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

Personally, I fear that until the lower leagues form an umbrella body that they all respect and will empower to negotiate - be it for media rights or against SL or to plan a coherent strategy for the professional game outside of SL - instead of leaving it to “The RFL”, they will be divided and conquered. 

I agree, but because this is something that should actually be aspired to, not just done as a desperate last resort. 

The FA doesn't negotiate Championship/L1/L2 TV deals, or organise the competitions. The EFL does it itself on behalf of its members. And a great job it does to, recently signed a £600 mln TV deal of its own. 

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21 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I was deliberately vague.

On these forums, there is a lot of despair.  There is agreement that something must be  done.  Ian Gidds above says that he would rather fight.  But fighting hurts.  I think the amateur game is going to have a far worse crisis in the next few years than it has already.  I have my own thoughts, but they are unpopular with all sides:

Traditionalist

- Give up on London as a venue for a big club.  It is already carved up.  There are niches left, but they are there for smaller clubs.  Let Broncos propser in the second flight as an alternative sport festival, without bothering with partisanship.

Expansionist

- The game is going downhill and cannot maintain a national 12 team league.  It has to cut the number of teams or import viable commerical clubs.

In this light, a club being welcomed into Super League would have to have a far better commercial basis than most exisiting Super League clubs.  They would have to offer a new market and not need a slice of TV contract.

Bob

You say we cannot maintain a national12 SL clubs, I assume you are omitting Catalan from that statement, how many do you envisage from these shores? considering you have already used the term "viable commercial clubs" as I eluded to a couple of posts ago according to Dr. KOUKASH we only posses 3 of those and two are less than 10 miles apart, but supposedly you mean we should drop the complete basket cases in SL, we can leave the ones in there who are only in the catagory of "bloody desperate" 

If we did prune some clubs from the heartlands do you think that the game would still

(1) maintain or grow it's popularity, or do you think

(2)less people would attend, watch it on TV, or even discuss it

I would go for the latter, 

Are we going to find all these new clubs you say we so desperately need overseas for I see that is the only option, it is not appreciated or desired enough by the required numbers anywhere in the UK, it always has been and will continue to be a regional sport in this country, nobody can prove otherwise.

So those characteristics for entry will have to come from off these shores in my opinion, but tgere are a whole host of problems attached to that, some we know, and I suspect quite a few more that would be uncovered.

Kind of gone off topic here Bob, but I see your point, and may I say concern, I am 100% in agreement with you re the community game, I see them as the small capilliaries that supply blood to keep the body functioning correctly, when they get damaged or severed and that blood supply stops the resulting consequences are catastrophic, many times fatal, it does not happen instantaneously but takes affect overtime. 

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As I have said before, if ALL that money was taken from Championship clubs, it would increase the Sky money to SL clubs by about 10%. For the largest SL clubs, that is maybe a 2% increase in their total income. Is that gain worth the serious problems it would cause elsewhere in the game?

Or maybe the SL clubs want the internationals money too, which I presume is currently retained by the RFL?

All that said, the only way to help stop all this nonsense going forward is for the TV rights for each component to be paid for separately, directly to the recipient bodies (which, for the non-SL clubs do not currently exist). But that also leads to how the TV rights should be negotiated and marketed. I can see benefits in each body marketing it’s own rights (although we may well indeed find some of the rights have less value than folk hope), but I can also see a massive downside in that it would allow broadcasters to divide and conquer - especially if there was limited competition as I fear. At least, marketed as one overall package, it stops that. Whatever is the right answer, seems to me the current schism is playing right into the hands of the broadcasters.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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4 hours ago, kiyan said:

Are you suggesting SL goes its own way and none of the money it generates goes to the lower leagues?  If you are, I fail to see how that helps anyone apart from SL.

The lower tiers may not have an option come the end of the current TV contract.

This is the time for those clubs to get their heads together and start looking at other options. Streaming or whatever. Include expansion clubs in that fold and they have a selling point.

They have a couple of years to make it so, no point waiting for it because it won’t come.

Got to get up and go get it.

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