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League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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18 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

No.  The power is where the lawyers are.

If Sky are party to an agreement with the RFL, they will not themselves seek to break it, will they?  And if the SL clubs choose to break it, they will be liable for damages for breach of contract, won't they?  A prospect I imagine that will really endear itself to those clubs sailing very close to the wind financially as it is.

After 2021 is an entirely different matter. If the SL clubs do choose to pursue a SL-only deal, comments like yours will doubtless make too many supporters of clubs outside of SL hope that the next TV deal is far worse than this one. 

Sky must be laughing themselves silly.  Same way as the Eurocrats must be doing over Brexit.  Watching their negotiating adversary splintering and self-destructing.

 

I wouldn't have thought Sky would be making announcements Via uncle Eddie Adey unless they were sure of what was actually happening, Also i can't see the " Gang of 4 " doing any of this without knowing exactly where they stand with the outfit that keeps them alive.

But who knows sometimes people will go to great lengths to save face.

When it's all finally over I just hope SLE gets the 12/14/? best clubs for that league, whatever colours they play in, They don't have to be the ones that are in at the moment for me.


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1 hour ago, Adeybull said:

And the litigation lawyers will be rubbing their hands in absolute glee again at the prospect.  Since, as far as I can see, and from having read the SLE constitution and agreement with the RFL, it seems to me that it was the RFL that is party to the contract with Sky, and with the clubs.

 

Adey, not sure if you can clarify this point for me.

In the 2014 RFL Annual Report, they state this: Early in the year, the RFL and SLE Ltd agreed a new extended television contract with Sky Sports which would take the broadcasting of our sport on Sky through to 2021. 

When I look at the RFL accounts, it clearly doesn't include the SLE portion of the broadcasting money, but looks like it does include any non-SLE portions. Wouldn't that suggest that the contract with Sky for Super League rights are with SLE? Obviously we can't tell how much that is, but it looks like Wood (SLE CEO) and Barwick (SLE Chairman) were representing SLE for that part, and taking the RFL cut for the other clubs.

Am I misunderstanding this point?

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7 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

I'm sorry but you're wrong.

I'm sorry but you're wrong again.

For any restructuring of the competitions or redistribution of central funding - SL need agreement from both Sky and the RFL. 

Obviously your Lenagan tinted glasses are affecting your judgement here.

The contract now was an extension not a replacement of the previous contract, the deal is with SL not the RFL.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

Great post and pretty much spot on the money.

The SL clubs simply cannot pull up the drawbridge and close the shop with all the takings.

Not unless they want to handsomely compensate the other 26 sides, and judging by Ian Lenagan's threat to remove upwords of £1M central funding from the Championship, that isn't going to happen.

We are at war, these are dark times for the sport. 

Why are you still arguing this point? It has been stated that the agreed funding is not changing.

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17 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I was talking to a lad at work the other day about Argentinian Football (a weird one, I know) and how they decide their promotion and relegation. From what I gathered, their promotion and relegation is done on a three-year cycle where your position in the table is based upon your three year average.

So for example, say Widnes finished 2019 with 16 points, 2020 with 14 points and 2021 with 19 points, that gives them an average of 15.6 points for that three-year cycle and lets say Hull Kingston Rovers finished 2019 with 18 points, 2020 with 21 points and 2021 with 13 points they'd have a three-year average of 17.3 points and that would see Widnes relegated at the end of 2021, allowing, say, Halifax, who've won the promotion three-year average in the league below, to take their place.

Unorthodox, perhaps, however, I saw people on here expressing their displeasure at the possibility of one up, one down and then teams yo-yoing, as we saw with Cas and Salford under one of the many previous formats Super League has had, whereas a three-year cycle would enable teams to build something over a few years and wouldn't leave them facing the prospect of relegation the year after promotion and, IMO, would keep a competitive edge to the bottom end of Super League, giving games a meaning throughout the three-year cycle and leaving teams unable just to purely accept their fate of a bottom finish in Super League and wait for the following year, every point and every result would matter. 

Relegation every 3 years would give the promoted team time to build a SL team and still ensuring the worst/bottom team went down. It wouldn't be like when Catalans were exempt from relegation and Cas got relegated after finishing above them

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7 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

We are at war, these are dark times for the sport. 

Stop being so melodramatic


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Why are you still arguing this point? It has been stated that the agreed funding is not changing.

Read Mark Moore's statement which is a truthful account of what actually happened at the meeting.

Ian Lenagan wants to reduce the central funding to the Championship. 

Why do you think everyone is releasing statements attacking Lenagan?

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1 minute ago, Michael Gledhill said:

Read Mark Moore's statement which is a truthful account of what actually happened at the meeting.

Ian Lenagan wants to reduce the central funding to the Championship. 

Why do you think everyone is releasing statements attacking Lenagan?

And his statement has been rubbished by all and sundry.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

Read Mark Moore's statement which is a truthful account of what actually happened at the meeting.

Ian Lenagan wants to reduce the central funding to the Championship. 

Why do you think everyone is releasing statements attacking Lenagan?

That meeting was over a month ago. There was a very public statement a couple of days ago committing the same levels of funding for the remainder of the contract.

The central funding debate for this contract has been put to bed.

Edited by Dave T

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4 minutes ago, Padge said:

The contract now was an extension not a replacement of the previous contract, the deal is with SL not the RFL.

The current deal which covers the SL, Championship and League One is between the RFL and SLE.

You simply cannot change the structure or allocation of central funding without full agreement of all parties.

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Just now, Dave T said:

That meeting was over a month ago. There was a very public statement committing the same levels of funding for the remainder of the contract.

The central funding debate for this contract has been put to bed.

I'm sorry Dave, but if that's the line that is supposed to convince the Championship clubs that is the current case then impasse will remain.

Minute taking at meetings is a valuable asset for situations like this.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

The current deal which covers the SL, Championship and League One is between the RFL and SLE.

You simply cannot change the structure or allocation of central funding without full agreement of all parties.

Nobody is changing it, where have you got that stupid idea from. SL have said they are committed to the funding agreed.

The TV contract is with SL, how they dish it out is of no interest to Sky.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

I'm sorry Dave, but if that's the line that is supposed to convince the Championship clubs that is the current case then impasse will remain.

Minute taking at meetings is a valuable asset for situations like this.

Lenegan was well within his rights to propose a change to funding. That is what meetings are for, to discuss things.

It sounds like he got nowhere with that, and has accepted this and moved on - very publicly stating that the funding commitment is there for not a penny less than current levels.

I'm not sure what more you want tbh.

The structure arguments are valid, the funding one, not at all.

Edited by Dave T

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43 pages of who said this,who said that,my twopenneth,how many of you was actually in these meetings.It seems to me there are only a couple of posters on this subject are talking sense.The rest is just guesswork .It is fine to debate put why post rubbish if you do not know and just speculate what has gone on in these meetings.I agree with John here,the time has come to lock this thread and let us just wait for a sensible solution to be announced.The time for debate is when we all know the facts of the matter.Good job I have retired with time on my hands,I would have given up with this thread days ago.

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1 minute ago, fairfolly said:

43 pages of who said this,who said that,my twopenneth,how many of you was actually in these meetings.It seems to me there are only a couple of posters on this subject are talking sense.The rest is just guesswork .It is fine to debate put why post rubbish if you do not know and just speculate what has gone on in these meetings.I agree with John here,the time has come to lock this thread and let us just wait for a sensible solution to be announced.The time for debate is when we all know the facts of the matter.Good job I have retired with time on my hands,I would have given up with this thread days ago.

Locking this thread will be like trying to get a bubble out of new wallpaper, it'll just keep popping up somewhere else.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

The current deal which covers the SL, Championship and League One is between the RFL and SLE.

You simply cannot change the structure or allocation of central funding without full agreement of all parties.

You are wrong SL clubs don't get central funding outside of things such as youth development grants.

The tv funding is paid through SLE you can see it in their accounts. 

TV funding for SL clubs doesn't come from the RFL it comes from SLE. Because SLE own the TV rights. T.v. rights they paid the RFL (in this instance) to sell. 

The lower league clubs have an entirely different relationship as they play in RFL owned competitions.

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9 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

Great post and pretty much spot on the money.

The SL clubs simply cannot pull up the drawbridge and close the shop with all the takings.

Not unless they want to handsomely compensate the other 26 sides, and judging by Ian Lenagan's threat to remove upwords of £1M central funding from the Championship, that isn't going to happen.

We are at war, these are dark times for the sport. 

The problem here is you're conflating pre-2021 with what comes after.

The money will continue to be shared until this contract ends. As others have suggested, perhaps SL clubs have tried to get round this and been told legally they have to honour it. Whatever the case, the money sharing stays till 2021.

If Sky approve a pre-2021 format change proposed by SL then in theory RFL could block it, but they'd be crazy to escalate over this matter when the money and P&R are guaranteed until 2021. I expected once tempers have calmed, things will carry on. This simply isn't a civil war situation. 

After 2021 it's all change. In theory the RFL could pass a motion forbidding it's member clubs to conclude media deals without its permission and approval. That's when the crunch point comes. If they try, then the SL clubs will simply resign, meaning the end of the RFL. That would be a civil war.

When the same happened in football and union, the governing bodies - far richer and stronger than the RFL - both blinked and allowed the top tier to become independent operationally. The same is inevitable in league. 

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18 minutes ago, Padge said:

Sky have an agreement with SL. That is what they buy and that is who they deal with.

 

Exclusively with SL? No other party involved? No RFL, without whose agreement matches cannot be played?  No Championship clubs, whose matches involving them they air, and so cannot air without their agreement?  We are not talking about which matches they show, but the right to show matches, and the cost. Are you SURE it is an agreement solely between Sky and SLE? Serious question, since if you are, could you point us to where that is confirmed? As it would have a massive bearing on this debate.

 


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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1 minute ago, Adeybull said:

Exclusively with SL? No other party involved? No RFL, without whose agreement matches cannot be played?  No Championship clubs, whose matches involving them they air, and so cannot air without their agreement?  We are not talking about which matches they show, but the right to show matches, and the cost. Are you SURE it is an agreement solely between Sky and SLE? Serious question, since if you are, could you point us to where that is confirmed? As it would have a massive bearing on this debate.

 

See Scotchy's reply two posts up.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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5 hours ago, Bulliac said:

The play offs devalue the league matches; the 'big games' are no longer quite so important since, "well what does it matter we'll probably/hopefully win the play-off", so why bother attending the league games? Attendances certainly aren't going up.

My view is that it was better when the champions were the top of the league and the play-offs were a separate competition, you are, of course , perfectly free to disagree. 

Sorry to say this, but the idea of having playoffs which are a separate competition which don't crown a champion is just stupid.

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18 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

The current deal which covers the SL, Championship and League One is between the RFL and SLE.

You simply cannot change the structure or allocation of central funding without full agreement of all parties.

Mick, as others have pointed out, Lenaghan & co have already confirmed that the funding until the end of the curent agreement will remain unchanged. Doubtless because they are fully aware that this will be covered by legally-binding agreements.

Once this agreement ends, all bets are off.  As I have said before, I think it would be only a very brave or a very imprudent owner of any club oputside of SL to bank on any central funding after the current deal expires.

Equally, I suggest any club owner should be very careful about assuming there will be any promotion into SL once the current deal ends, and any SL club owner should be very careful about assuming that there will be a place fopr his club in the lower leagues should his club be ejected from SL for any reason.

Certainly until/unless this internecine debacle is sorted out.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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5 minutes ago, Padge said:

See Scotchy's reply two posts up.

He's in my ignore bin.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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2 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

He's in my ignore bin.

I thought I was ?

The monies appear in SL's accounts.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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14 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

Mick, as others have pointed out, Lenaghan & co have already confirmed that the funding until the end of the curent agreement will remain unchanged. Doubtless because they are fully aware that this will be covered by legally-binding agreements.

Once this agreement ends, all bets are off.  As I have said before, I think it would be only a very brave or a very imprudent owner of any club oputside of SL to bank on any central funding after the current deal expires.

Equally, I suggest any club owner should be very careful about assuming there will be any promotion into SL once the current deal ends, and any SL club owner should be very careful about assuming that there will be a place fopr his club in the lower leagues should his club be ejected from SL for any reason.

Certainly until/unless this internecine debacle is sorted out.

 

Think i remember something like this happening to the Giants once , weren't they refused entry into the Northern ford comp for some reason or other , so they stayed in SL, Or have i dreamed this.


Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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