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scotchy1

League Restructure Discussion (Merged Threads)

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Places tend to (not exact science) tail off at about, 12% of the population, however the bigger the place the lower that percentage becomes.

I am sure there is a thesis for a mathematician in there somewhere to work on.

The catchment area is a big thing.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 hour ago, Padge said:

Define the modern era.

Genuine point: define success, too. I'm  sure there are neutral financial types on here who can shine a light on the finances of the Leeds Cricket, Football and Athletic Company Limited, showing how how Leeds Rhinos make a profit without cross subsidy from crikit and union.  Not saying they don't , but interested in splitting the figures out from the other interests.


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37 minutes ago, Padge said:

Places tend to (not exact science) tail off at about, 12% of the population, however the bigger the place the lower that percentage becomes.

I am sure there is a thesis for a mathematician in there somewhere to work on.

The catchment area is a big thing.

It is a good rule of thumb.

Of course, it is defining the catchment area that makes it a difficult thing to judge.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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10 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

scothchy seems to think it’s all about playing big teams regardless of where they are from.

The catchment area is what allows a club to become big, that and competition in that area.

 


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 hour ago, deluded pom? said:

We waited years for a genuine Hull derby. Now they are ten a penny and the attendances reflect that, especially at the Kcom. Have Saints ever sold Langtree out for a game against Wigan? 

But we dont see that correlation when you look at other teams.

Sides didnt see a noticable jump in attendance when Leigh came up even though most sides hadnt played them in over a decade.

Fact is people want to see the big teams play each other more than they want to see them play the others. That fewer people overall want to watch the game at all is a different issue.

 

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20 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

scothchy seems to think it’s all about playing big teams regardless of where they are from.

Big clubs are by definition, bigger. Im not sure why you have gotten hung up on a point that a league that only included big clubs would be. Well. Bigger.

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4 minutes ago, Padge said:

The catchment area is what allows a club to become big, that and competition in that area.

 

And how the club is run and the investment in the club by owners, and the skill and diligence of owners and employees, and the product they are selling, and the state of the overall game, etc etc etc.

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

And how the club is run and the investment in the club by owners, and the skill and diligence of owners and employees, and the product they are selling, and the state of the overall game, etc etc etc.

All that is limited by their catchment area though. You can be the best run, the best at whatever, but if you are out in the sticks you are not going to get great crowds flocking in. 

You need high population density and good transport infrastructure to build a 'big' club.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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28 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Genuine point: define success, too. I'm  sure there are neutral financial types on here who can shine a light on the finances of the Leeds Cricket, Football and Athletic Company Limited, showing how how Leeds Rhinos make a profit without cross subsidy from crikit and union.  Not saying they don't , but interested in splitting the figures out from the other interests.

One would hope any sporting club don't make much profit to be thus tax'd and money wasted.  Good accountants and investment being wise. If not able to on players then else where, e.g. improving stadium and further increasing what is already there highest revenue earner namely commercial, sponsorship & hospitality revenue capabilities ( improved and new facilities being created from the stadium build)  ......... mind you if not careful they could be doing that in the championship next year... chuckle

They are public limited company via various holding companies so I guess a look at the accounts a starting point.

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20 minutes ago, Padge said:

All that is limited by their catchment area though. You can be the best run, the best at whatever, but if you are out in the sticks you are not going to get great crowds flocking in. 

You need high population density and good transport infrastructure to build a 'big' club.

Perhaps that would affect the cumbrian sides but outside of that clubs are based in very dense populations.

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1 hour ago, Padge said:

Places tend to (not exact science) tail off at about, 12% of the population, however the bigger the place the lower that percentage becomes.

I am sure there is a thesis for a mathematician in there somewhere to work on.

The catchment area is a big thing.

So Cas have reached (and indeed surpassed) their potential? 

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Perhaps that would affect the cumbrian sides but outside of that clubs are based in very dense populations.

But also are based in the same dense populations. The North West is the highest population density outside of London and is just about supporting 3 clubs that can get over 10k crowds and a couple of clubs on good days that can get 5k - 7k.

West of St.Helens you will struggle to have an SL 'big' club, East of Manchester you have a chance.

In Yorkshire Leeds and Bradford have sucked in most of the support available, OK Bradford at the moment are out of SL running but they are still the big sell.

 


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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3 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So Cas have reached (and indeed surpassed) their potential? 

The Cas catchment area isn't Castleford. I also said that as the population gets bigger there is a drop off, that also applies as the population gets smaller in reverse. 

There does seem to be an exponential curve involved in how many people you can attract


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 minute ago, Padge said:

But also are based in the same dense populations. The North West is the highest population density outside of London and is just about supporting 3 clubs that can get over 10k crowds and a couple of clubs on good days that can get 5k - 7k.

West of St.Helens you will struggle to have an SL 'big' club, East of Manchester you have a chance.

In Yorkshire Leeds and Bradford have sucked in most of the support available, OK Bradford at the moment are out of SL running but they are still the big sell.

 

I can't agree with that. There are about 3m people in the leeds city region. That can support way more than Leeds and Bradford.

Football proves it. Its not a question of density, its a question of the product you are offering.

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38 minutes ago, redjonn said:

One would hope any sporting club don't make much profit to be thus tax'd and money wasted.  Good accountants and investment being wise. If not able to on players then else where, e.g. improving stadium and further increasing what is already there highest revenue earner namely commercial, sponsorship & hospitality revenue capabilities ( improved and new facilities being created from the stadium build)  ......... mind you if not careful they could be doing that in the championship next year... chuckle

They are public limited company via various holding companies so I guess a look at the accounts a starting point.

I was kinda hoping that Hetherington's fan club members would have the info on tap!

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

I can't agree with that. There are about 3m people in the leeds city region. That can support way more than Leeds and Bradford.

Football proves it. Its not a question of density, its a question of the product you are offering.

Football has nothing to do with it. It has its own dynamics which are nothing to do with RL.

If you look at the stats, they all point to what I am saying. Leeds may have 3 million people, but there is a point where on the exponential curve you are going not much further for a lot of effort.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 minute ago, Padge said:

Football has nothing to do with it. It has its own dynamics which are nothing to do with RL.

If you look at the stats, they all point to what I am saying. Leeds may have 3 million people, but there is a point where on the exponential curve you are going not much further for a lot of effort.

Of course there will be a curve that sees a lower proportion of your population attend as that population rises. But thats pretty irrelevant to the action issue at hand.

The relative proportions are irrelevant. You dont get a prize for being attracting a certain proportion of you market.

The hard figures are what is important. Cas may be able to attract 10% of what they see as their market, but thats a lot smaller than someone getting only 0.5% of that 3m.

The reason why that curve exists is because most people arent a fan of the game, as we get bigger the amount of people who arent fans of the game will grow faster than the ones that are. But that curve makes ignores the fact that the total number of games fans is still going up.

What football proves is there isnt just a limit of fans to go at. It is a market which is built and grown.

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

What football proves is there isnt just a limit of fans to go at. It is a market which is built and grown.

Soccer (we play football), has become the supreme dominant sport. media organisations actively enforce it in to the countries Psyche, to try and compare ANY sport in this country to soccer is just silly.

You need a large amount of momentum and luck to attract supporters from a very wide area beyond your natural constituency.  


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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wrong thres oops

Edited by Padge
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Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 minute ago, Padge said:

Soccer (we play football), has become the supreme dominant sport. media organisations actively enforce it in to the countries Psyche, to try and compare ANY sport in this country to soccer is just silly.

You need a large amount of momentum and luck to attract supporters from a very wide area beyond your natural constituency.  

For football also read the growth in RU, look at the growth in NFL, cycling and many other sports.

Football has become the dominant sport but that doesnt mean it somehow defies the laws of physics. Of course it is silly to say that we should be getting football level crowds or spending or whatever but it is equally silly to pretend that we dont operate in the same sphere just on a different scale.

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

For football also read the growth in RU, look at the growth in NFL, cycling and many other sports.

Football has become the dominant sport but that doesnt mean it somehow defies the laws of physics. Of course it is silly to say that we should be getting football level crowds or spending or whatever but it is equally silly to pretend that we dont operate in the same sphere just on a different scale.

Check population and averages for RU, it works out similar. A small sport with only 10 watchers can very soon have a massive percentage increase.

 


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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2 minutes ago, Padge said:

Check population and averages for RU, it works out similar. A small sport with only 10 watchers can very soon have a massive percentage increase.

 

You mean where the best attended side is in Leicester which is about the same size as WMDC, the 4th best attended side is in Bath a city smaller than Wakefield?

Followed by Gloucester, Northampton and Exeter, all much smaller than Newcastle and the conurbation in which Sale sits.

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2 hours ago, Padge said:

The Cas catchment area isn't Castleford. I also said that as the population gets bigger there is a drop off, that also applies as the population gets smaller in reverse. 

There does seem to be an exponential curve involved in how many people you can attract

So your assertion is a load of poop. Who'd have thought it?

Edited by Les Tonks Sidestep

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