23-24 Jun: The Betfred Championship Match Thread

[westlondonfan]

35 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

5,287.

Nearly as many as at the USA v Canada Union international match in Halifax taking place at about the same time.

[Harry Stottle]

43 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

So you’ve got a glass half full view of things then?

It's through expierience DD, observing what is happening, going to games, listening to those expieriencing the lower end and the intentions of those with the most clout.

I was in the company of a Chairmen of one of those 'lower' Championship clubs in the last week, as things stand it is not good at his club and he said in duscussion with his contemporaries at other clubs like his in the Championship should they be denied the meagre funding that they presently recieve it could very well lead to grave consequences.

It is not about being a pessimist, it is a realisation of what is unfolding before us, only those with 'ostrich' tendancies are not grasping it.

[Wakefield Ram]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

So you’ve got a glass half full view of things then?

It is a realistic view. I have followed Dewsbury for over 40 years and if I wasn't a season ticket holder, would probably give this afternoon's game against Leigh a miss. We have no chance of winning against a side whose budget is probably 5-7 times ours. Allowing a salary cap the same as SL in a league with majority part time teams creates no contest games and for the two teams out if the six who don't make the top four, it will be interesting to see the financial fallout.

[MADREDNIGE]

10 hours ago, PatrickB said:

Well done TWP.

Visiting teams might consider bringing over a full squad.

Bring on Leigh.

By looks of it teams can't can't bring a full squad because many aren't getting granted visas to entry Canada. Level playing my a£$€! 

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

It is a realistic view. I have followed Dewsbury for over 40 years and if I wasn't a season ticket holder, would probably give this afternoon's game against Leigh a miss. We have no chance of winning against a side whose budget is probably 5-7 times ours. Allowing a salary cap the same as SL in a league with majority part time teams creates no contest games and for the two teams out if the six who don't make the top four, it will be interesting to see the financial fallout.

Yep WR, those not involved and looking from the outside - not saying Double D is one of those, I do not know his circumstance - are not aware of what is actually transpiring.

Like yourself, I have been a follower for a long time, outstriping yourself by double figures, even in the dark days of the 70's and 80's when the game was on its uppers I have not felt as worried of the future propects of the sport as I do at the present time.

Any way back to today, Leigh need the points difference, but more so than that I hope it is a good game, seems as though the weather is going to be in the mid 20's for game time, as much as a leveller as the heavy fields use to be, especially for the older end.

 

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

It's through expierience DD, observing what is happening, going to games, listening to those expieriencing the lower end and the intentions of those with the most clout.

I was in the company of a Chairmen of one of those 'lower' Championship clubs in the last week, as things stand it is not good at his club and he said in duscussion with his contemporaries at other clubs like his in the Championship should they be denied the meagre funding that they presently recieve it could very well lead to grave consequences.

It is not about being a pessimist, it is a realisation of what is unfolding before us, only those with 'ostrich' tendancies are not grasping it.

 

50 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

It is a realistic view. I have followed Dewsbury for over 40 years and if I wasn't a season ticket holder, would probably give this afternoon's game against Leigh a miss. We have no chance of winning against a side whose budget is probably 5-7 times ours. Allowing a salary cap the same as SL in a league with majority part time teams creates no contest games and for the two teams out if the six who don't make the top four, it will be interesting to see the financial fallout.

So what do you advocate? How do you create an environment where ambitious lower league clubs who want to get to the top be ready to compete? 

Money drives sport sadly, the situation in Championship is no different to football or union so I’m really not sure what you would like, other than some kind of socialist race to the bottom?

The only thing I can think of is a more even distribution of revenue in the 2nd tier but that wouldn’t change the dynamics much

[Wakefield Ram]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep WR, those not involved and looking from the outside - not saying Double D is one of those, I do not know his circumstance - are not aware of what is actually transpiring.

Like yourself, I have been a follower for a long time, outstriping yourself by double figures, even in the dark days of the 70's and 80's when the game was on its uppers I have not felt as worried of the future propects of the sport as I do at the present time.

Any way back to today, Leigh need the points difference, but more so than that I hope it is a good game, seems as though the weather is going to be in the mid 20's for game time, as much as a leveller as the heavy fields use to be, especially for the older end.

 

Unfortunately heat just gives more advantage to full time fitter teams. Heavy fields are a leveller but we don't get too many of them 

[Wakefield Ram]

8 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

 

So what do you advocate? How do you create an environment where ambitious lower league clubs who want to get to the top be ready to compete? 

Money drives sport sadly, the situation in Championship is no different to football or union so I’m really not sure what you would like, other than some kind of socialist race to the bottom?

If the purpose is to create a team able to stay up in SL, it's not working, if the purpose is to create a competitive league, then the salary cap needs to come down to a semi-pro level and a more even distribution of central funds. 

Or it stays as it is and you get more cricket scores. Ambitious clubs?How many of these ambitious clubs would be where they are without owners willing to spend large amounts of money? Should London be promoted when they have proved they do not have the support to be a sustainable SL team?

 

[bobbruce]

7 hours ago, Medway Bear said:

Wasn't sure if I was going to the TWP Raiders game, the weather wasn't good and I heard rumours Barrow were a couple short, but made a last minute decision to go and I am glad I did. TWP won, not unexpectedly, but Barrow had only 14 players. I know they had injury problems and had to borrow a couple of players, but they stuck to it and tried their best. Hats off to Barrow who gave it  a good shout, yes the score wasn't close and I am not sure all their players on the field at the end were 100% fit, but they kept going and I appreciate their spirit in coming over and giving it a go. This to me was about the love of the game.

Absolutely the players on the pitch went above and beyond. They were just let down. Would be interesting to know if Barrow used all the available flights to Toronto despite not having a full team. 

[tim2]

34 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

If the purpose is to create a team able to stay up in SL, it's not working, if the purpose is to create a competitive league, then the salary cap needs to come down to a semi-pro level and a more even distribution of central funds. 

Or it stays as it is and you get more cricket scores. Ambitious clubs?How many of these ambitious clubs would be where they are without owners willing to spend large amounts of money? Should London be promoted when they have proved they do not have the support to be a sustainable SL team?

 

All clubs are ambitious - they all want to win but the sensible ones are also realistic.

Giving the highest placed clubs in a semi-pro league way more money than the rest was always going to lead to greater disparity.

[shaun mc]

48 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Absolutely the players on the pitch went above and beyond. They were just let down. Would be interesting to know if Barrow used all the available flights to Toronto despite not having a full team. 

From the Barrow Forum, explains their short numbers somewhat

<<<<<If you look at all the players who have turned out for the Raiders this season(29) and then check the current position..

left (1),amateur(1),suspended(1),work (2),visa(1),loan ineligible(1)

that leaves 22 of who 9 were injured prior to Fev Game..so assuming no further injuries (big assumption given walking wounded at the end of the game)...then we have 13 available for the Toronto trip.Perhaps some of the injuries may clear up although there must be at least 5 long term..it's clearly going to be a tough ask  and surely  not in the interest of player welfare...>>>

Barrow must have got a Visa sorted pretty quickly for Garner from the amatuer game who put his hand up to play a few days before they left. Can be done, but it seems complications happen

Not sure what you mean about 'all available flights' Air Transat run enough services from Manchester and Glasgow for Barrow to get there and back as a long weekend. There was 1 Barrow player who I was surprised to see playing due to work

[CanadianRugger]

40 minutes ago, tim2 said:

All clubs are ambitious - they all want to win but the sensible ones are also realistic.

Giving the highest placed clubs in a semi-pro league way more money than the rest was always going to lead to greater disparity.

Fairness vs equality.  The Championship is fair in that every club has the right to buy to the Salary Cap.  Why is it TWP, Toulouse, Leigh, London's problem some clubs choose not to?  

Socialism is the enemy of meritocracy.  Wanting equality is stupid because it's actually impossible to attain.

Also, nobody gave the above teams more money, David Argyle has earned every cent he ever made and has chosen to invest some of it in your sport.  He should be penalized for this?

[Woodyhkr]

2 hours ago, MADREDNIGE said:

By looks of it teams can't can't bring a full squad because many aren't getting granted visas to entry Canada. Level playing my a£$€! 

Yeah and they had trouble getting visas to go to Featherstone last week too apparently...

[fevtom]

If we want a “fair” system then the idea behind financial fair play in football doesn’t seem so bad although they implement it terribly.

Every club is allowed to spend or “make a loss” of ‘x’ amount. (Essentially a salary cap) It rewards the clubs who can make the most revenue, attract fans, sponsership etc but also makes sure clubs are reasonably sustainable without a sugar daddy who can leave and fold clubs at the drop of a hat.

[bobbruce]

37 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

From the Barrow Forum, explains their short numbers somewhat

<<<<<If you look at all the players who have turned out for the Raiders this season(29) and then check the current position..

left (1),amateur(1),suspended(1),work (2),visa(1),loan ineligible(1)

that leaves 22 of who 9 were injured prior to Fev Game..so assuming no further injuries (big assumption given walking wounded at the end of the game)...then we have 13 available for the Toronto trip.Perhaps some of the injuries may clear up although there must be at least 5 long term..it's clearly going to be a tough ask  and surely  not in the interest of player welfare...>>>

Barrow must have got a Visa sorted pretty quickly for Garner from the amatuer game who put his hand up to play a few days before they left. Can be done, but it seems complications happen

Not sure what you mean about 'all available flights' Air Transat run enough services from Manchester and Glasgow for Barrow to get there and back as a long weekend. There was 1 Barrow player who I was surprised to see playing due to work

No matter what the injury situation Barrow should be able to get 17 players on the pitch in the second tier. 

It isn’t in the interest of player welfare but that again is entirely down to Barrow not being able to get a team out. 

What I mean by available flights is did they use up however many air transat provided. 

[tim2]

18 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Fairness vs equality.  The Championship is fair in that every club has the right to buy to the Salary Cap.  Why is it TWP, Toulouse, Leigh, London's problem some clubs choose not to?  

Socialism is the enemy of meritocracy.  Wanting equality is stupid because it's actually impossible to attain.

Also, nobody gave the above teams more money, David Argyle has earned every cent he ever made and has chosen to invest some of it in your sport.  He should be penalized for this?

Rich men giving sports clubs their money is fine until they take it away. If you're still around in ten years I'll be pleased (as an expansionist) but you have to realise the precarious ground on which you walk. 

I'm objecting not to the sugar daddy funding, but the gross disparity in prize money introduced in order to placate the SL clubs who were about to be potentially relegated after franchising was stopped.

I'm interested in your thoughts on how the NFL levels their playing field out - is that not a kind of socialism? Why do weaker teams get the first draft choice? What kind of incentive is that?

Sheffield, for example, don't choose not to spend the cap. They can't. This isn't anybody's fault but when you have teams with hugely restricted budgets in a league with virtually unrestricted budgets mismatches occur and people will eventually stop watching.

I'm in favour of franchising / licesning by the way.

[Loup]

3 hours ago, MADREDNIGE said:

By looks of it teams can't can't bring a full squad because many aren't getting granted visas to entry Canada. Level playing my a£$€! 

So I suppose Barrow only taking 15 players to Fev was also due to visa issues?

[Loup]

Wolfpack are paying for Barrow team to have a trip to Niagara Falls today. Nice gesture.

[CanadianRugger]

37 minutes ago, tim2 said:

Rich men giving sports clubs their money is fine until they take it away. If you're still around in ten years I'll be pleased (as an expansionist) but you have to realise the precarious ground on which you walk. 

I'm objecting not to the sugar daddy funding, but the gross disparity in prize money introduced in order to placate the SL clubs who were about to be potentially relegated after franchising was stopped.

I'm interested in your thoughts on how the NFL levels their playing field out - is that not a kind of socialism? Why do weaker teams get the first draft choice? What kind of incentive is that?

Sheffield, for example, don't choose not to spend the cap. They can't. This isn't anybody's fault but when you have teams with hugely restricted budgets in a league with virtually unrestricted budgets mismatches occur and people will eventually stop watching.

I'm in favour of franchising / licesning by the way.

It isn't socialism because every owner has agreed to this as a condition of participation in the league and owning a franchise.  The NFL isn't 32 different clubs, it's one giant entity with 32 shareholders.

The NFL is the most well run sporting organization in the world.  I think Rugby League would do well to adopt a Franchise system with a proper shared revenue model.  

Realistically, the heartlands are completely tapped out and saturated.  You are never going to be able to support more than 12 fully professional sides in that region and continuing to run the game pretending teams like Barrow, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, etc are going to magically crack Super League standard is a foolish way to run a business.

 

Super League should separate from the RFL and form a franchised league.  New applicants can be entertained on a case by case basis.  

[DoubleD]

7 minutes ago, Loup said:

Wolfpack are paying for Barrow team to have a trip to Niagara Falls today. Nice gesture.

Where’s the level playing field in that? What did Barrow pay Toronto to have a trip to?

[bobbruce]

35 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Where’s the level playing field in that? What did Barrow pay Toronto to have a trip to?

Aira force waterfall. 

[Niels]

1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

No matter what the injury situation Barrow should be able to get 17 players on the pitch in the second tier. 

It isn’t in the interest of player welfare but that again is entirely down to Barrow not being able to get a team out. 

What I mean by available flights is did they use up however many air transat provided. 

I understand your point in theory but in practice it is often very different. Manchester City, for all their resources, were unable to field a full substitutes bench for one game last year. 

Squad numbers are not unlimited and some clubs understandably opt for quality over quantity to challenge over a season.

At my team the injury situation is not good at the moment. A lot of teams are in a similar position. 

Finally, for a lot of non committed Championship followers the Toronto games are the main feature. However for the clubs themselves, each game is just as important, more so if it is a relegation battle. Therefore it is not worth risking injured players. 

[bobbruce]

4 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand your point in theory but in practice it is often very different. Manchester City, for all their resources, were unable to field a full substitutes bench for one game last year. 

Squad numbers are not unlimited and some clubs understandably opt for quality over quantity to challenge over a season.

At my team the injury situation is not good at the moment. A lot of teams are in a similar position. 

Finally, for a lot of non committed Championship followers the Toronto games are the main feature. However for the clubs themselves, each game is just as important, more so if it is a relegation battle. Therefore it is not worth risking injured players. 

1/With City that wasn’t because they didn’t have the players. Rather a choice the manager made as the youngster coming in wouldn’t be used anyway. Probably a way for Pep to let the owners know he needs more money for players. 

2/Squad numbers aren’t unlimited but pro clubs especially semi pro should know the amateur game inside out. I’m pretty sure there are plenty of amateurs who would sign a 4 week contract with the chance of a free trip to Toronto thrown in. 

3/As you say clubs are spending too much on the first team and not having enough cover. Clubs need to either have bigger squads or have a plan as to were they can get players from. Either DR or loans or the amateur game. 

4/Do you not think there is a serious risk of injury to the player that took part. With the position the club has put them in. 

[Wakefield Ram]

2 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

1/With City that wasn’t because they didn’t have the players. Rather a choice the manager made as the youngster coming in wouldn’t be used anyway. Probably a way for Pep to let the owners know he needs more money for players. 

2/Squad numbers aren’t unlimited but pro clubs especially semi pro should know the amateur game inside out. I’m pretty sure there are plenty of amateurs who would sign a 4 week contract with the chance of a free trip to Toronto thrown in. 

3/As you say clubs are spending too much on the first team and not having enough cover. Clubs need to either have bigger squads or have a plan as to were they can get players from. Either DR or loans or the amateur game. 

4/Do you not think there is a serious risk of injury to the player that took part. With the position the club has put them in. 

Taking point 4, do you think there is a risk of injury if an amateur player gets drafted into a match against full time team?

[DoubleD]

5 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Taking point 4, do you think there is a risk of injury if an amateur player gets drafted into a match against full time team?

There’s always a risk of injury in any match you play or even any training session you partake in