Professional rugby in Cumbria

[Town utd]

Two good posts

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

I was never a fan of franchising, but I think that's the way the game is heading in both codes of rugby.

In some respects it would be a good thing as it would allow the clubs in the Championship and League One to take a step back and re-evaluate the current competition and see how it can be improved to create a better spectator experience.

It would also stop clubs paying excessive full time wages they can ill afford to players in their effort to reach Super League.

Let's go back to all clubs being semi-pro below Super League, but at the same time have some sort of mechanism in place which would give successful ambitious teams the chance to join Super League provided they meet the criteria.

As has been said countless times, small town teams like Town, Haven, Barrow just don't have the population to support a Super League side. An 8,000 stadium isn't going to bring Super League rugby to Workington, and anyone who thinks it will is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Better to build a smaller 5,000 capacity stadium and have it looking full (ish) than rattle about in a soulless empty stadium 

[town4me]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I was never a fan of franchising, but I think that's the way the game is heading in both codes of rugby.

In some respects it would be a good thing as it would allow the clubs in the Championship and League One to take a step back and re-evaluate the current competition and see how it can be improved to create a better spectator experience.

It would also stop clubs paying excessive full time wages they can ill afford to players in their effort to reach Super League.

Let's go back to all clubs being semi-pro below Super League, but at the same time have some sort of mechanism in place which would give successful ambitious teams the chance to join Super League provided they meet the criteria.

As has been said countless times, small town teams like Town, Haven, Barrow just don't have the population to support a Super League side. An 8,000 stadium isn't going to bring Super League rugby to Workington, and anyone who thinks it will is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Better to build a smaller 5,000 capacity stadium and have it looking full (ish) than rattle about in a soulless empty stadium 

The new stadium isn't just about workingtin town RL. Its a multi use stadium and the capacity is to allow it to potentially host other events.  If we were to go down the basing it on current crowds route then why have a 5k stadium built for towns current crowds. Its all about potential mate.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

I know its a multipurpose stadium, but you will never convince me the area needs an 8,000 capacity structure.

For the few music events the stadium may host, there's also the added capacity of using the pitch as a standing area which would easily add an additional 5,000 to any capacity subject to temporary toilets and refreshment outlets being added

[town4me]

2 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I know its a multipurpose stadium, but you will never convince me the area needs an 8,000 capacity structure.

For the few music events the stadium may host, there's also the added capacity of using the pitch as a standing area which would easily add an additional 5,000 to any capacity subject to temporary toilets and refreshment outlets being added

I respect your opinion mate but i feel you have a slightly  negative approach. why build a 5k when it  can be 8k. As i said its about potential IMO. lt's not as if town and reds fans aren't use to sparsely populated terraces already. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

Not being negative mate, there's a big difference between being negative and having realistic ambition.

This part of West Cumbria has a population of about 100,000, so the chances of 8% of the population attending regular live sports will never happen.

Town and Haven can't muster 2,000 between them, Reds 500 on a good day. Town under Peter Walsh enjoying their first success in decades only averaged about 3,000 when they were winning trophies. Whitehaven probably about 2500

Apart from a very very odd occasion (ie World Cup game), this area is never going to go close to filling an 8,000 capacity stadium. 

If you look at all professional sport (top Premier League clubs excluded), they won't draw more than an average of 2-5% of the local population to matches - that isn't speculation, its a fact. Do a little research and see for yourself.

I'm fully behind the scheme to build a modern stadium, but it has to be funded, so why pay for something that's never going to be used but still has to be maintained, and not forgetting part of the attraction of attending live sports is for the atmosphere. What atmosphere is going to be generated by a stadium less than 10% full !!

If the powers that be are confident that they can regularly fill a stadium close to capacity, then alter  the design so the stadium can be added to at some point in the future as and when the need arises. Having a smaller stadium which is close to capacity every game is actually a better financial option, as it encourages people to buy tickets well in advance without having to heavily reduce ticket prices, so there are multiple benefits to scaled ambition. 

Anyway, Allerdale still haven't come out and said how the stadium is going to be funded, or how much cost will be passed on to ratepayers, so until the first sod is dug, I'll see it when I believe it 

[unicorn106]

3 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Not being negative mate, there's a big difference between being negative and having realistic ambition.

This part of West Cumbria has a population of about 100,000, so the chances of 8% of the population attending regular live sports will never happen.

Town and Haven can't muster 2,000 between them, Reds 500 on a good day. Town under Peter Walsh enjoying their first success in decades only averaged about 3,000 when they were winning trophies. Whitehaven probably about 2500

Apart from a very very odd occasion (ie World Cup game), this area is never going to go close to filling an 8,000 capacity stadium. 

If you look at all professional sport (top Premier League clubs excluded), they won't draw more than an average of 2-5% of the local population to matches - that isn't speculation, its a fact. Do a little research and see for yourself.

I'm fully behind the scheme to build a modern stadium, but it has to be funded, so why pay for something that's never going to be used but still has to be maintained, and not forgetting part of the attraction of attending live sports is for the atmosphere. What atmosphere is going to be generated by a stadium less than 10% full !!

If the powers that be are confident that they can regularly fill a stadium close to capacity, then alter  the design so the stadium can be added to at some point in the future as and when the need arises. Having a smaller stadium which is close to capacity every game is actually a better financial option, as it encourages people to buy tickets well in advance without having to heavily reduce ticket prices, so there are multiple benefits to scaled ambition. 

Anyway, Allerdale still haven't come out and said how the stadium is going to be funded, or how much cost will be passed on to ratepayers, so until the first sod is dug, I'll see it when I believe it 

We are all entitled to air our views on this but I never thought I would hear a Town fan argue against it. You do have a point regarding crowd figures but I'm with t4m on this, why not make it 8k, I doubt there would be much difference in the cost. The building of the new stadium is vital for the future survival of both clubs and the sporting potential and ambitions of Allerdale and West Cumbria. I'm led to believe the diisicion on the go ahead will be March with building work starting in November. Bring it on.

[miaow]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 9:19 PM, Timmy Streets scrumcap said:

Rugby league has been dying on it's backside everywhere outside of the select few clubs at the top of the pile.

I hear you guys talking about business but I have to ask...what kind of business opportunity does a lower tier rugby league club present to anyone?

The sad fact is that the thing that has changed is that the top 10% of clubs have become properly functioning professional outfits 

I recall the days (not too long ago) when even some of the top players had jobs outside of rugby..with only the real superstars being afforded full time status.

Basically when Whitehaven played St Helens in the late 1980s you had one team with some full time  players  against a team  with one pro  and  12 local lads.

Now the same fixture would feature one club who recently paid 10k per game to one player. Versus a team who couldn't stump up a 12k sgning fee.

The gap has been allowed to grow way beyond the point of no return.

As a result the grass roots are dying

Keighley,bramley,Oldham, halifax,Sheffield,workington,whitehaven,Barrow, Salford, Wakefield, hunslet

All of these heartland clubs have had the begging bowl out to the fans

And of course that ignores the mismanagement disaster of Bradford 

The top clubs have formed a cartel and everyone else has been cut adrift

A good example is the dual registration scheme...Wigan were using this as a form of punishment for certain players!

The A team system gone,the academy system failed and the top clubs signing up any young talent showing even a modicum of promise,safe in the knowledge that they can always dual register them out.

Back in the day you were not looked at by a top club unless you had a Barla tour behind you. This meant that those very good but not top class youngsters could feed into their local team and develop from there.

As I see it, Workington and Whitehaven arguing about anything is just pointless. ..it's like 2 slap heads fighting over half a wig!

Both clubs have been left to rot by the game which owes both clubs a great deal.

And for advocates of Dr Koukash or anyone else bringing his carnival intof town...just one question..

If a Syrian bloke from cheshire buys a load of guys from disparate corners of the game and sticks a "cumbrian" labe l on it......which bit of that is actually Cumbrian?

There  must be an answer to this...but running after the bus after you have missed it seems a bit stupid to me

Perhaps the 2 leagues full of teams who have been cut adrift,ought to totally accept their lot and realize that they still have a saleable product....i for one prefer watching lower league rugby. Maybe work out a TV deal of their own? Let the 14 fat pigs at the top go and gorgeous themselves - of course that is until they realize that when you allow your feeding roots to wither and die,one day there will be nothing left in the store cupboard.

Just a thought!

 

great post

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

1 hour ago, unicorn106 said:

We are all entitled to air our views on this but I never thought I would hear a Town fan argue against it. You do have a point regarding crowd figures but I'm with t4m on this, why not make it 8k, I doubt there would be much difference in the cost. The building of the new stadium is vital for the future survival of both clubs and the sporting potential and ambitions of Allerdale and West Cumbria. I'm led to believe the diisicion on the go ahead will be March with building work starting in November. Bring it on.

At one point have I argued against it?

I'm all for the building of a stadium, but a scaled back scheme which is more suited to current needs and that more than allows for the manageable expectation of increased support should Reds or Town be successful in the future.

In regards to building costs, of course it will cost more, builders price per metre!

[town4me]

5 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Not being negative mate, there's a big difference between being negative and having realistic ambition.

I totally get you point over current attendances and the proposed 8k capacity. I just think we need to look at the bigger picture and show a bit of ambition for the town as a whole.  

[dkw]

The fact we have had near 8k attendances in the the recent past proves it should definitely be an 8k capacity stadium surely? Why ho for 5k when we already know we need 8, that makes no sense. 

[townie88]

I cannot remember the figures (think they were in our latest RLWC bid brochure). But when we hosted the RLWC it brought a massive amount of money into the area. Having the facilities to host such events has a positive influence for the area as a whole (businesses, hotels etc). Not just Town or Reds. Reducing the capacity from 8k to 5k would considerably hinder the opportunity of hosting such events in the future would it not?

[Timmy Streets scrumcap]

My two bob's worth on a couple of other things.

The matter of a new stadium is an interesting one. On one hand you can make the very valid argument that a new multi purpose facility can surely only be a good thing for the whole town.

However we need only look at the athletic stadium in whitehaven to find evidence that what can look noble on paper does not always play out that way.

Again it could be said that 5000 is more than capacity enough for any sporting event likely to include either of the current teams.

But that is maybe a little short sighted.

Bournemouth fc were little more than clinging on to league and full time status not too long ago....then from nowhere a rich foreign investor emerges and it's upward progress all the way.

Now if when at a low ebb they had decided that thinking small is the future....then needless to say that the investor may well have gone elsewhere. 

The flip side of this are numerous examples of failed joint use facilities - all built with grand ambition and noble intentions.

The Don Valley stadium being a glaring exemplar of why that model is so difficult to actually deliver.

Bigger and better facilities do NOT ensure better teams. 

In fact the only guarantee is that it will bring bigger bills!

A community facility is useless if nobody can afford  to use it.

Often with these projects the biggest winners are consultancy firms and architects.

This project really does need a lot of proper thought!