Are any Super League Clubs rich?

[B rad]

The club generated revenue 42 million

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What do you mean Brisbane Broncos mad 42 million?

I think someone is getting a tad confused between profit and revenue. According to this they made $2.8 million in profit on a revenue of $42 million.

Brisbane’s reputation as the NRL’s financial juggernaut has been reinforced by revelations the club generated revenue of more than $42 million last year - and a profit in excess of $2.8 million.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/brisbane-broncos-millions-revealed-in-nrl-club/news-story/0a2b30cd46d3a4ab62e40a0071bd3c37

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, B rad said:

The club generated revenue 42 million

That is very different to making 42mil where I come from.

Leeds would probably be top turnover here with $18-20m. But the model is very different here without Leagues Clubs etc here - did that Broncos income include c$15m from the Leagues Club?

 

[B rad]

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-rich-list-phil-rothfield-rates-your-clubs-financial-situation/news-story/af3d7a044cfd7e2317ddc2829922db33

That's from 2015 but that lists profits from NRL clubs that year.

Just now, Damien said:

I think someone is getting a tad confused between profit and revenue. According to this they made $2.8 million in profit on a revenue of $42 million.

Brisbane’s reputation as the NRL’s financial juggernaut has been reinforced by revelations the club generated revenue of more than $42 million last year - and a profit in excess of $2.8 million.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/brisbane-broncos-millions-revealed-in-nrl-club/news-story/0a2b30cd46d3a4ab62e40a0071bd3c37

I think your right. 

Servers me right of not reading the entire article.

[Kayakman]

On 7/28/2018 at 9:15 AM, John WP Fan said:

That would surprise me this early. Where do you get that information?

I expect them to be profitable in the medium term, but I doubt they are bringing in more than they are spending at this point.

 

23 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yep, I’m like John WP, I am happy to be corrected, but I find it unfathomable that TWP are currently earning more than they are spending.

Do you know more about their contracted incomes and sponsorships you can tell us about Kman? I would be extremely impressed if that fully funds logistics, player contracts, staff salaries and all other expenses the club has.

 

No idea ...haven't seen the books...no proof that they are losing money, breaking even, or generating a profit.   Not an accountant.  I think that it is funny that people automatically think they are losing money though...how do they know????

Is the track record of Argyle losing money, breaking even, or making money?.....this is your clue.

[Wolford6]

Derbies with Leeds next season; the tills will clink over and it'll be just like the old days.

 

[Sports Prophet]

On 7/28/2018 at 10:27 PM, Kayakman said:

Toronto is fully self funding...it has many resources....

Hold on K’man, you claimed that the Wolfpack are entirely self funding. Now you say you are not the accountant etc, which I get. I don’t expect everyone to know the figures.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the revenue and partnerships that in addition to healthy (yet respectively small) attendance revenue would fully fund the club.

My suspicion is the club runs off a significant handout from the director/owner, which is the same as many clubs, yet significantly different from a fully self funding operation.

[Dave T]

12 hours ago, Kayakman said:

 

No idea ...haven't seen the books...no proof that they are losing money, breaking even, or generating a profit.   Not an accountant.  I think that it is funny that people automatically think they are losing money though...how do they know????

Is the track record of Argyle losing money, breaking even, or making money?.....this is your clue.

Plenty of businessmen lose money and have big failures, and plenty of initiatives will lose money before they start making money.

The fact that TWP are not taking any central funding, having to start from scratch so having plenty of setup costs, trying to build a fanbase from zero in non-RL territory - all suggests that they are likely to be losing money at the moment (or still at an investment phase to be more accurate).

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Hold on K’man, you claimed that the Wolfpack are entirely self funding. Now you say you are not the accountant etc, which I get. I don’t expect everyone to know the figures.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the revenue and partnerships that in addition to healthy (yet respectively small) attendance revenue would fully fund the club.

My suspicion is the club runs off a significant handout from the director/owner, which is the same as many clubs, yet significantly different from a fully self funding operation.

I guess it would matter how you look a the books...the Club has built up an intrinsic value of worth...like a house that appreciates in value...the Toronto franchise has an enhanced inherent value which must be factor into the balance sheet now doesn't it?

If Toronto makes SL does this value not go through the roof?  It could eclipse any expenses incurred so far....could be a big profit....value of the Blue Jays and Maple Leafs and Raptors is way higher than when they came into their various leagues.

Argyle knows what he is doing....the club could not only be self funding but turning a tidy profit at the moment!

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Plenty of businessmen lose money and have big failures, and plenty of initiatives will lose money before they start making money.

The fact that TWP are not taking any central funding, having to start from scratch so having plenty of setup costs, trying to build a fanbase from zero in non-RL territory - all suggests that they are likely to be losing money at the moment (or still at an investment phase to be more accurate).

The intrinsic increase in value of the franchise if they make SL could easily eclipse these expenditures.  Like a house increasing in value and adding to ones net worth.

[Sports Prophet]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I guess it would matter how you look a the books...the Club has built up an intrinsic value of worth...like a house that appreciates in value...the Toronto franchise has an enhanced inherent value which must be factor into the balance sheet now doesn't it?

If Toronto makes SL does this value not go through the roof?  It could eclipse any expenses incurred so far....could be a big profit....value of the Blue Jays and Maple Leafs and Raptors is way higher than when they came into their various leagues.

Argyle knows what he is doing....the club could not only be self funding but turning a tidy profit at the moment!

The value is only what someone is willing to pay. I understand your reasoning, but “value” has nothing to do with the profitability and the club’s ability to “self fund”.

I am highly pessimistic that the club is doing anywhere close to making a profit, however, Argyle’s strategy would still be at “investment” stage, as DaveT put it, with all losses included in his budget.

[Kayakman]

13 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The value is only what someone is willing to pay. I understand your reasoning, but “value” has nothing to do with the profitability and the club’s ability to “self fund”.

I am highly pessimistic that the club is doing anywhere close to making a profit, however, Argyle’s strategy would still be at “investment” stage, as DaveT put it, with all losses included in his budget.

It doesn't have to be sold to put the actual value on the books...accountants have their ways.   If a house increases in market value it doesn't have to be sold to realize some of that profit...the market value can be certified and then it  can be borrowed against to access capital.  Potential profits can be fit on a balance sheet...look at what happened to self created derivatives and how the accountants played it.

Losses can also be put off or stretched for 20 years on a balance sheet!...every accountant knows this.

No proof has been presented, or ever has been presented, that TWP is not currently profitable.

[M j M]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

It doesn't have to be sold to put the actual value on the books...accountants have their ways.   If a house increases in market value it doesn't have to be sold to realize some of that profit...the market value can be certified and then it  can be borrowed against to access capital.  Potential profits can be fit on a balance sheet...look at what happened to self created derivatives and how the accountants played it. 

Losses can also be put off or stretched for 20 years on a balance sheet!...every accountant knows this.

No proof has been presented, or ever has been presented, that TWP is not currently profitable.

This is rubbish, to be polite.

TWP will be burning cash at a catastrophic rate by RL standards, not taking central funding, seemingly giving away quite a lot of tickets, funding incoming teams' travel and accommodation. Now if that's funded by the owner that's absolutely fine. But at this stage in any new business's life cycle cash is king, not profits and certainly not some intangible brand value (which I suspect is not that far off nil in any event).

If Argyle thinks he's created a $100m brand and can sell it for that much then his investment makes complete sense.

If he's happy to burn through millions of CAN$ in the hope of establishing an RL bridgehead or because he's devoted to his club/sport that's also fine.

But so far, like many/most RL clubs, it's clearly a money pit.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

This is rubbish, to be polite.

TWP will be burning cash at a catastrophic rate by RL standards, not taking central funding, seemingly giving away quite a lot of tickets, funding incoming teams' travel and accommodation. Now if that's funded by the owner that's absolutely fine. But at this stage in any new business's life cycle cash is king, not profits and certainly not some intangible brand value (which I suspect is not that far off nil in any event).

If Argyle thinks he's created a $100m brand and can sell it for that much then his investment makes complete sense.

If he's happy to burn through millions of CAN$ in the hope of establishing an RL bridgehead or because he's devoted to his club/sport that's also fine.

But so far, like many/most RL clubs, it's clearly a money pit.

Proof please.

[M j M]

1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

Proof please. 

We can try and build a composite Profit & Loss account if you like based on what we know about the running costs of a typical full time RL club and the special costs (and potentially income streams) that TWP have.

I wonder if you have any insight into what TWP's income streams are ? Do they cover the full salary cap of around CAN$3M?

 

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

We can try and build a composite Profit & Loss account if you like based on what we know about the running costs of a typical full time RL club and the special costs (and potentially income streams) that TWP have.

I wonder if you have any insight into what TWP's income streams are ? Do they cover the full salary cap of around CAN$3M?

 

I think that there is a real possibility that they just might...but I do not know the final numbers.  However, if that number is just 3 million, I think they just might.  For example,  I wouldn't be surprised if clothing sales are well over 1 million profit in their own right....maybe even 2 million!

[M j M]

Just now, Kayakman said:

I think that there is a real possibility that they just might...but I do not know the final numbers.  However, if that number is just 3 million, I think they just might.  For example,  I wouldn't be surprised if clothing sales are well over 1 million profit in their own right....maybe even 2 million! 

I am starting to worry about your sanity.

[Krzzystuff]

5 minutes ago, M j M said:

This is rubbish, to be polite.

TWP will be burning cash at a catastrophic rate by RL standards, not taking central funding, seemingly giving away quite a lot of tickets, funding incoming teams' travel and accommodation. Now if that's funded by the owner that's absolutely fine. But at this stage in any new business's life cycle cash is king, not profits and certainly not some intangible brand value (which I suspect is not that far off nil in any event).

If Argyle thinks he's created a $100m brand and can sell it for that much then his investment makes complete sense.

If he's happy to burn through millions of CAN$ in the hope of establishing an RL bridgehead or because he's devoted to his club/sport that's also fine.

But so far, like many/most RL clubs, it's clearly a money pit.

You are right we aren't taking central funding.

Where is your proof of free tickets by the bucket loads? Are they just outside the entrance for people to pick up and walk in for free? I think that this stat is made up to make you feel better and get some sleep at night. some people still argue that all the money going to should be used on heartland clubs instead...but like you said we aint costing the RFL anything.

Toronto does this really odd thing where they get major corporate sponsors..i know weird, but Air Transat pays for all of the flights for both Wolfpcak and the visiting teams teams as part of their deal...so you see...we don't actually pay for that.

Cash is king and our owner is a billionaire, however, the goal is to make the team self sustaining and there is a plan put in place for being self funding/break even and i believe that was the 5 year mark with SL. i don't know the specifics and i don't believe anyone outside of the organization knows them but i did hear a lot of talk regarding us being way ahead of expectations last year and i can imagine that has only increased this year with even more sponsors and ST sales.

[Kayakman]

4 minutes ago, M j M said:

I am starting to worry about your sanity.

Have you ever observed the shop and the amount of product it actually moved?  I have spent hours observing it....they literally are breaking open new product boxes by the multiple dozens in the back room....as fast as they unpack it it literally flys off the shelves.  The markup is huge on this type of retail unit...I don't think I'm being unreasonable, they don't even have time to tag prices on the units...no kidding...go watch yourself if you don't believe me. 

[M j M]

6 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

Where is your proof of free tickets by the bucket loads? Are they just outside the entrance for people to pick up and walk in for free? I think that this stat is made up to make you feel better and get some sleep at night. some people still argue that all the money going to should be used on heartland clubs instead...but like you said we aint costing the RFL anything.

Toronto does this really odd thing where they get major corporate sponsors..i know weird, but Air Transat pays for all of the flights for both Wolfpcak and the visiting teams teams as part of their deal...so you see...we don't actually pay for that. 

Let me be clear - I'm a big fan of what TWP are doing and would promote them to SL if they qualify. I'm fortunate in that they aren't really a threat to my club. But I'm also pretty clear about the economics of Rugby League clubs and there aren't many which are profitable, certainly not in expansion areas. And there isn't a club in the league, including Leeds, which makes enough profit from merchandising to cover the salary cap and no matter how well they are doing I would be very surprised if the Wolfpack were different.

And FWIW there is an associated cost for the Air Transat sponsorship. It's a large opportunity cost because they are your title sponsor - what money does the club get over and above free transport for the players? How much more would AT pay if they didn't have to fly the players around?

We can be big fans of Toronto without succumbing to delusions about the natural gravity of sports team finances.

[Kayakman]

5 minutes ago, M j M said:

Let me be clear - I'm a big fan of what TWP are doing and would promote them to SL if they qualify. I'm fortunate in that they aren't really a threat to my club. But I'm also pretty clear about the economics of Rugby League clubs and there aren't many which are profitable, certainly not in expansion areas. And there isn't a club in the league, including Leeds, which makes enough profit from merchandising to cover the salary cap and no matter how well they are doing I would be very surprised if the Wolfpack were different.

And FWIW there is an associated cost for the Air Transat sponsorship. It's a large opportunity cost because they are your title sponsor - what money does the club get over and above free transport for the players? How much more would AT pay if they didn't have to fly the players around?

We can be big fans of Toronto without succumbing to delusions about the natural gravity of sports team finances.

How do you know the airline is not paying TWP on a graduated scale in regards to advertising and the amount of fans flying over which is realized profit for them....the more fans flying over the greater per centage increase in the payment...same for the hotel most stay in....how much is Canadian Diamonds paying them (they are flush with cash)...whats their cut on concessions and beer sales (very high markup)....many, many others.

TWP is selling more clothing than Leeds, probably more than all of the other SL teams put together....this is the reality on the ground over here in Toronto.  I think we just might just know more about the 'natural gravity' of how to do it more than you guys over there; proof is in the pudding.   Nothing, for any city in SL over there,  has anything near the dollar amount value of sports franchises like we have over here in Toronto. 

[M j M]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

TWP is selling more clothing than Leeds, probably more than all of the other SL teams put together

I'm starting to think that engaging with you wasn't the most productive use of my time.

[Kayakman]

15 minutes ago, M j M said:

I'm starting to think that engaging with you wasn't the most productive use of my time.

Incorrect, just because you don't like the answers given to your question does not mean it is unproductive...it means it is time to reflect on those answers.  For example, you have still not replied to how much you think the Wolfpack is making on clothing...I don't think 2 million CDN is unreasonable whatsoever...possibly more.

TWP seems to be constantly breaking new ground from its very inception...ground that has never been worked before and this causes many of the British fans to react with disbelief...then shock as the new reality sets in.  All the season ticket holders have spent a substantial amount on clothing...myself about $800...I would say I'm on the low end.  All the new fans that 'try it out' are spending about $100 I would say (a hat is $50 I believe).  Probably 4000 new non season ticket holders per game at least.  You do the math....2 million per year is not unreasonable.  Times that 2 million by 2 (years) thats 4 million.  Whats the salary cap again?

On line sales are also very brisk at his time!

[Dave T]

34 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

 

TWP is selling more clothing than Leeds, probably more than all of the other SL teams put together....this is the reality on the ground over here in Toronto. 

This is one of the best claims I have ever read on here. And we have had some cracking stuff over the years.

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is one of the best claims I have ever read on here. And we have had some cracking stuff over the years.

Further, while the visiting teams bemoan the flight why haven't their marketing agents contacted the TWP to have their shirts on display and for sale in the shop?   People in there want to buy them, its always a lineup to get in,  and many have remarked on this and wished they could buy a jersey from the visiting side....I've heard it said many times while I am in there....total lack of marketing and imagination...and seeing what could be, whilst potential profits fly out the window!

TIME TO WAKE UP RUGBY LEAGUE!....its called 'economies of scale'.