SL Club Attendances 2018

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, jpmc said:

picking on Salford when the attendances of the 3 clubs above them are equally as shocking is ridiculous.

Equally as shocking? I think you need to understand what the word equally means. Their attendance is nearly half that of the three above them, that's how bad it is.

They're that bad that you could probably bang Manchester Rangers in the SL next season without build up and they'd still beat them in attendances.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Let's not get too down about the attendance drop though. Leeds obviously account for a lot of that due to ground works.

Hull's have climbed for the last three seasons.

Saints have had a small increase and will likely go up again next year due to their success.

Most are very similar to before.

Wigan's drop is a concern. No real reason for that one.

Salford and Widnes are not looking like SL clubs with those attendances.

Thursday nights are killing the game for me. Having the Wigan/Saints derby on a Thursday knocked loads off the attendance.

[RayCee]

1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Hull's have climbed for the last three seasons.

Any insight into why Hull FC have done so well the past three seasons?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Thats a problem with the game, not Thursday nights. playing on a Thursday night is not an insurmountable hurdle.

Friday night games will always be preferable for Leeds fans (and seemingly travelling fans to Headingley) for various reasons and I'd imagine that's the same for the likes of Wigan and Saints - so how is that not a problem with Thursday nights? 

[Colin James]

A point raised on the BBC RL podcast by Jon Wilkin was that there is a lack of star attractions at the moment. He used Ben Barba as an example with someone going to Magic just because they had heard about him even though they aren't a fan of the sport.

I applaud Wigan's use of academy players and now it seems they are looking at the Championship with Hankinson and Bullock but those names won't put bums on seats. When I was a kid Wigan was full of superstar players, they have one player who arguably fits that bill in Tomkins and he is leaving. It's not a surprise their crowds aren't what they could be.

Has the salary cap simply dragged down the top clubs rather than pulling up the bottom clubs? How many genuinely Marquee players are in SL?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Because we arent always going to be able to have everything to our preference. Thursday nights are an excuse for the failings of the game. We might as well be blaming it being too rainy or too sunny or a million and one other excuses.

Sports are played midweek, thats a fact of life, that we can't attract people on a thursday because its slightly less convenient than a friday or saturday or sunday is a symptom. The Apathy towards the game that means people wont attend if there is the slightest inconvenience is the issue.

This isn't unique to RL, other sports that are played midweek see dips in attendances - also a fact. So I don't think we need to view this as a problem with our sport. I'm not saying we shouldn't play games on a Thursday btw, but what I am saying is, when we're talking about dips in attendance, to not consider that as a reason why is wrong. 

[RayCee]

SL can no longer attract stars from down under anymore due to the NRL being flush. In fact, the best of SL are increasingly over there. That doesn’t help but it’s just one reason. Another is 12 teams is repetitious (and they talk of having less).

I wonder how imaginative most clubs are in marketing their product, obsessed with TV money and getting the biggest slice of that as they can yet neglecting the fans coming to the game. It’s lazy and shortsighted. 

The product is good but not the lack of initiative many clubs in RL show. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Im not sure its true that other sports see those same dips we do.

However other sports are a bit irrelevant. We have had midweek matches for about 6 years now, they are no excuse for year on year falls and they arent an insurmountable hurdle, even if it is a problem its one which we should have overcome.

They are if they put the biggest games on a Thursday and they see a huge drop.

Fans are unfortunately voting with their feet on a Thursday. A big part of our audience is children. Parents aren't willing to bring kids to Thursday night games when there's school the next day.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Im not sure its true that other sports see those same dips we do.

However other sports are a bit irrelevant. We have had midweek matches for about 6 years now, they are no excuse for year on year falls and they arent an insurmountable hurdle, even if it is a problem its one which we should have overcome.

It is a problem in other sports Scotchy - look at Championship level football downwards, look at cricket that is played midweek compared to weekends. You're trying to make out this is typical 'set in their ways' RL fans, but it's just not the case - as I said before there are clearly various reasons why attendances drop in midweek games. So we either accept that broadcast rights are more important and suffer the dip or we go back to all games being played Fri, Sat, Sun and see the attendances pick up a bit, but potentially only have live RL on Fridays and maybe Sat. Something has to give because whilst the 'hurdle' isn't insurmountable, for some people there is a hurdle and that in itself is a problem. 

 

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, fevtom said:

To be fair a part of the drop has come from Leeds (understandable in their situation.) Salford and Widnes obviously have poor crowds but overall they’re only down around 600 from each from two years ago.

Toronto could improve this slightly if they come up for Widnes or Salford. London would have a devastating impact as not only have their crowds historically been terrible, they’re often the lowest home crowd for every other team. Toulouse would also probably struggle when they’re not playing Catalans and i’m not too sure of their ground situation for next year. Long term we could do with a strong Bradford.

Is there anywhere these statistics go back further? I know wikipedia do but i’m not sure how accurate they are. I know this year Wakefields is completely wrong.

I am guessing the following answers will be in the negative, but still of interest.

What effect does playing on Thursday have, not only on home supporters (allied to tv), but also on ability for away support to travel. And generally, and never mind the 'match day experience', what impact on away support is all the other distractions (not least cost) affecting numbers.

Odd irregular dates and times generally are hardly conducive for supporters.   How easy can it be for a Widnes speccy to go to Hull for a 7.45 kick off on a Thursday.  I wonder what the best settled date/time is best. Do we know (guess?) which teams send best away support.  Is there data on season ticket numbers?

We need to know these things!!! 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

25 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Any insight into why Hull FC have done so well the past three seasons?

Between 2007 and 2011, fans had began to become detached from the club during the Agar/Hetherington low period. Can interest resurged again when Pearson first bought the club, but the Gentle era was littered with silly mistakes, and Radford taking over didn't fill people with glee after all the false dawns (every coach we'd appointed since John Kear in 2005 was an assistant beforehand).

After 2 dull seasons under Radford, fans felt they were right about him. A poor start to 2016 didn't help, but then suddenly it all turned around (I believe it was literally the 60th minute of the Hull derby!) and the rest was history. Things finally clicked and Hull fans had reason to believe for the first time since 2006. 

The KCOM was a pretty depressing place to go as a Hull fan for a long time, with years of uninspiring rugby. God forbid if you were the next underperforming half back we'd recruited since the gaff that lost Paul Cooke (Webster, Thorman, Long, Obst, Seymour, Miller, Holdsworth). It really did feel a chore going and everyone was waiting to blame someone. Such a negative place. Thank God we've finally got something to cheer about, even if this season hasn't been the best.

[Rupert Prince]

35 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Let's not get too down about the attendance drop though. Leeds obviously account for a lot of that due to ground works.

Hull's have climbed for the last three seasons.

Saints have had a small increase and will likely go up again next year due to their success.

Most are very similar to before.

Wigan's drop is a concern. No real reason for that one.

Salford and Widnes are not looking like SL clubs with those attendances.

Thursday nights are killing the game for me. Having the Wigan/Saints derby on a Thursday knocked loads off the attendance.

Its not unlikely to expect a 24,000 gate for a Wigan Saints game on a Friday night or Sunday pm. I think Thursdays are killing gates, and the tv hardly pay for the difference. It's claimed that the super8s have affected Wigan season tickets. I would have thought  that special games (occasionally) might boost a game on Wednesdays... but that idea really springs purely out of the ether.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But that will have happened last year as well. Thursday night games arent new. They have happened for about 6 years

Its only very young children that this is a problem for. Find someone else to replace them.

Selling to the same people, the same product at the same time is the thing that is failing. Not everything can be done to that small markets preference.

Why would you look to replace anyone? Surely you'd look to add all the time? Therefore, the crowd will always dip when done can't come.

Thursday nights have been around for a while. The choice of game on the Thursday is always different however, and if it's a big game, there's a big drop. What could be a sell out event that everyone can enjoy because they're more available to attend suddenly become "just another game" on a Thursday because people can't make it or have work in the back of their mind the next day.

You can keep searching for this idealist answer, but it's not an ideal world. Yes, we could do more, we always can, but we can do more on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays too. If we do more on all of those days, Thursday will still be the least attended.

Championship games on a Thursday weren't too bad because it felt like a special occasion to be on TV due to its sparsity, and attendances not being as big a deal on the health of the sport as a whole in the second tier as the first. I wish they'd go back to that way and give us back our Saturday evening slot. They manage for Catalans games!

[Rupert Prince]

28 minutes ago, RayCee said:

SL can no longer attract stars from down under anymore due to the NRL being flush. In fact, the best of SL are increasingly over there. That doesn’t help but it’s just one reason. Another is 12 teams is repetitious (and they talk of having less).

I wonder how imaginative most clubs are in marketing their product, obsessed with TV money and getting the biggest slice of that as they can yet neglecting the fans coming to the game. It’s lazy and shortsighted. 

The product is good but not the lack of initiative many clubs in RL show. 

Saturday Sunday and Monday are distractions for live tv football (the world cup did not help). It's a pity that a Monday Night game is taken by football, and most of Sat. is spread over by football.  It's got to be a killer for a team to play Sunday then Thursday.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It is typical set in their ways RL fans that dont attend. Its the games problem that they are failing to get someone else in their place. Vitality blast attendances are growing despite games being midweek, test matches are played midweek during the day. Look at Darts.

There are reasons why some people don't attend on a Thursday, that isnt a reason why everybody else in the country doesnt attend. There is a whole set of other barriers we dont address. It is typical of RL and indicative of its problems, because we can't sell the same product we have always sold, at the same time, to the people who have always bought it we have no idea what to do.

There are many people who are MORE likely to attend on a weekday than a weekend. We do very little to make ourselves attractive to them.

Sorry, Scotchy but on this one I just can't see where you're coming at this from? T20 gates are lower for the games they play midweek compared to the ones they play on weekends (see Yorkshire as one example of that). Darts is not comparable as it's essentially a tour, not a season. 

Who are they and what more could be done to make us more attractive to them?

[fevtom]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It is typical set in their ways RL fans that dont attend. Its the games problem that they are failing to get someone else in their place. Vitality blast attendances are growing despite games being midweek, test matches are played midweek during the day. Look at Darts.

 

That's not really true though. T20 attendances are growing, but the Friday night matches still draw far bigger crowds than Wednesday night ones, in fact it's even more pronounced in cricket. Test matches outside of London struggle to sell out on weekdays and weekend tickets are always the first to go. In football the difference between a midweek game and a Saturday game at Leeds is usually about 4000.

You're right that this doesn't account for the fall in the last few years but there's not a single sport that attracts anywhere near the same crowds on a weekday. 

[Rupert Prince]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It is typical set in their ways RL fans that dont attend. Its the games problem that they are failing to get someone else in their place. Vitality blast attendances are growing despite games being midweek, test matches are played midweek during the day. Look at Darts.

There are reasons why some people don't attend on a Thursday, that isnt a reason why everybody else in the country doesnt attend. There is a whole set of other barriers we dont address. It is typical of RL and indicative of its problems, because we can't sell the same product we have always sold, at the same time, to the people who have always bought it we have no idea what to do.

There are many people who are MORE likely to attend on a weekday than a weekend. We do very little to make ourselves attractive to them.

Huh? So if these gazillions like a Thursday, well where are they?  Are RL club chairmen meant to be masters of mind control? Is it going to be a brilliant idea to paint clown faces on the players and reel in the punters, or drop fivers from helicopters  to stoke interest. Maybe run a Miss Wakefield contest at half time.

It's a Thursday night for gawds sake!!  

The committed will have a season ticket (which will be part of attendences),  but the dates will not be known in advance and some will not be able to go. And so and in any event, the chopping and changing will  probably adversely effect the willing ones to commit to season tickets if they are peed off with duff dates.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Students, people who work in cities,

quite simply if people with kids wont attend, target people without them.

You say target them but nothing is being done to exclude them, so what's stopping them coming now on Thursday games? 

[fevtom]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

We are used to RL being played on a weekend thats how it was for nigh on a hundred years. Then we got Friday night RL, then Monday, then Thursday.

T20 are growing, they are attracting more and more people to watch on a weekday evening, test cricket may not sell out but they will be getting thousands to go on a Wednesday day time.

 

But they still all have lower attendances on weekdays so are they failing too? If Yorkshire can attract 10,000 on a Friday but only 7,000 on a weekday arent they failing to attract these new fans you talk about?

The test match at Trent Bridge is pretty much sold out for Saturday and Sunday but Monday hasn't even sold half the tickets yet. Why are they failing to attract the new midweek fans?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

We arent selling it to them. We are lazy and risk averse and it is easier to sell what you have always sold to who you have always sold it to.

Honestly Scotchy - I'm fully in agreement with there being numerous cases of lazy marketing in RL but I don't think there is an untapped market for midweek games. What would be the pull? 

[Rupert Prince]

3 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

You say target them but nothing is being done to exclude them, so what's stopping them coming now on Thursday games? 

Students are all at home studying!

Seriously, students will be getting drunk and at best watching in the pub.  Targeting students and their limited incomes is just a sick joke.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

In the simplest sense, go after work, a few beers and a good match-day experience.

How we do that? many different ways, approach companies early and directly get buy in from them and people will come along for the social side of things. Get out and about in to cities during the day, try walking through Leeds at lunch time on a Thursday there are literally hundreds of thousands of people wandering about.

Clubs arent hosting home games on a thursday every week, its 3 or 4 at the most. Target them for new fans and casuals.

 

So pretty much all of that happens already happens in Leeds yet even a city the size of Leeds still sees a dip - as do Leeds United I might add. That aside, I think we established early on in this thread that Leeds aren't really the club with attendance problems. Also, you've mentioned Leeds a few times - Leeds is a massive city, how does this translate to the likes of Wakefield or Widnes? 

I hear what you're saying but most of what you're talking about is idealistic and without much of a plan of how it would happen. 

[Rupert Prince]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They are doing other things. Its not 1906 anymore. People arent done with a day at the mill and have to get home before it gets dark. Go in to Leeds on a Thursday night and it isnt a ghost town. Its thriving.

RL club chairmen dont need to be masters of mind control, they need to sell their product.

I am an RL fan, i attend RL events, the RFL/SL and the clubs have my details. Never once in my life have I been asked if I would like to buy an RL ticket and Im an obvious target for them. There are people in the RL heartlands who have no idea what an RL game is like, when its on, why its important.

Of course it's not 1906, it's the real world and to clubs will be doing the best and their bit to promote the game. And it's hard work to encourage a regular attendance, but costs a lot to buy a seat and short of kidnapping your granny it's a big big effort to push new and or occasional  punters. 

Thursdays are a milestone round clubs necks which barely cover the extra effort for tv money.

We are looking are gates and Thursdays are an influance, as I suspect are the super8s. The top 4 may have enhanced interest, but for the other 4, they are highly unlikely to better their  position. Where is their interest, and more to the point where is their interest in travelling?

On another tack... I do agree when it's said that we need star talent to fill the seats. Barba is an example. To be fair maybe we do not promote our own, who are in the end pretty good.   Additionally I do think the rule changes have neutered the game a bit. We are a bit too quick I think. But this I accept is a moot point and maybe a distraction from the gates issue. Maybe.

[Lowdesert]

34 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Honestly Scotchy - I'm fully in agreement with there being numerous cases of lazy marketing in RL but I don't think there is an untapped market for midweek games. What would be the pull? 

Decent infrastructure would help.

Thursday night games are fine for TV but for travelling fans with families the wrong option.

[Saint Toppy]

3 hours ago, RayCee said:

 

Perhaps Saints are close to saturation point unless they try other ways to broaden their reach. Often clubs do so much, then seem to think that's it and hope success will draw in more supporters. 

Since McManus took over Saints attendances have risen steadily. From the pre-SL semi-pro days to now their attendances have increased by around 40%. With the exception of a few years (particularly under the KC era) they've seen increases every year, so hardly something to be massively worried about. It's a similar story with other clubs like Wire and Hull.

The ones we should be worried about are the ones who have seen no increases at all, or even reductions,  despite 2 decades of professionalism and Sky funding.

For all the trumpeting of the NRL many of their club attendances are worse than SL.