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RayCee

Would It Help Leeds To Be Relegated?

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4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It’s up to the big names to perform like big clubs. Leeds are in their position due to their performances. If the competition can’t afford to lose “big clubs” the chance of relegation has to be removed 

100% certain would be that should Leeds get relegated there will be no closed shop announcement from anyone this season as to the future of the game after the current cycle as run its course, if they stay in SL that could change, I fully expect that Leeds current predicament will be the controlling factor of any further announcements to be made.

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Were a lot of fans lost or did they go to watch another team?

I'm not convinced that a lot of the (lost) Bradford fans aren't watching teams like Castleford whose crowd has grown massively due to success on the field. A few seasons ago they were getting gates of 3k in the Championship, they are now getting 7k+. I find it hard to believe that these are all newcomers to the game.

Surely that is what is wrong with the game, since Wigan's dominance in the 80's the game has been fairly predictable with all of the honours shared between by approx 5 clubs ever since. The Championship has not been able to compete because of a lack of money and a closed shop.

The weaker the championship, the weaker the game is as a whole because there is no competition on the lesser SL teams. This has a knock on to the whole game, the weaker the lesser SL teams become, the less competition in the top flight and therefore a poorer competition. 

Once the game sorts the funding distribution in the Championship and C1, the better the game will become. 

Sadly we have a short termist approach to the game though, if the foundations of the game are weak, the poorer the whole game becomes.

Edited by DOGFATHER

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1 minute ago, Spidey said:

It’s up to the big names to perform like big clubs. Leeds are in their position due to their performances. If the competition can’t afford to lose “big clubs” the chance of relegation has to be removed 

No argument with any of that.  Although if a competition cannot afford to lose "big-name" clubs (and in its current parlous state i really don't think SL CAN afford to), the solution is not to treat the symptoms and stop relegation, but to treat the cause - by revitalising the competition. So MORE clubs become (or once again become) "big-name", and then you CAN afford to lose one.

Worth remembering, too that Bradford and London were not "relegated" in the normal sense.  They missed the cut when the competition was reduced in size, in the only year for years, before or since, where there was enforced, simple "relegation".  Some people very much suspected Wood was more than happy to see this happen (never let it be said took steps to help bring it about...), in some dumb crazy attempt to justify his new system by having "big names" in the Championship.

But it is a rather different argument to the seemingly anti-Leeds/Bradford argument you have been putting forward so far on this thread, which is that the competition has not missed/will not miss Leeds and Bradford.

Ref another of your points - I don't recall anyone ever suggesting losing Leeds would damage the competition more than Leeds? Just that losing Leeds would significantly damage the competition. Personally, I suspect the damage to Leeds would be temporary and pretty limited, provided they bounced straight back. Losing Hetherington's voice on the SL board would be another significant consequence for the SL competition, but again that is another discussion.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But, competition wise Leeds have not performed very well this season hence the league position they find themselves in, and as far as other clubs are concerned  losing revenue through the "vast armies" of travelling Leeds fans is non existant, they do not travel in numbers outside of their locallity.

One thing that would be a silver lining from the cloud of Leeds being relegated is not having to put up with the televising of their games with such regularity, that has been real 'car crash' tv this year, we know they are bad, it is just the morbid curiosity value that keeps people tuning in.

What a load of garbage Aristotle..."car crash" viewing, really?! Instead we could have rows and rows of empty seats which sky regularly show, hell we don't want viewers showing a ground with a decent crowd and atmosphere...your post wins first prize for the post with wishful thinking dipped in envy...don't give up the day job in Greece...

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5 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Were a lot of fans lost or did they go to watch another team?

I'm not convinced that a lot of the (lost) Bradford fans aren't watching teams like Castleford whose crowd has grown massively due to success on the field. A few seasons ago they were getting gates of 3k in the Championship, they are now getting 7k+. I fi

 

Eh?

I don't know a single local Bradford fan who switched allegiance to another SL team.  I bet most other Bradford fans would say the same. Maybe a very very small number might have switched, but most likely only if they lived much nearer to another SL club. I suspect comparatively very few former Bulls fans lived over Cas way.  The most likely switches would have been to Leeds or to Hudds. A few MAY have opted for the former; I think you would struggle to find representatives of the latter.

I am aware of one or two who now watch more local (to them) non SL teams.

My own experience is that the fans were lost to the game, as kids grew up and lost interest, parents no longer had an incentive to go, and the offering and experience declined in its attractiveness to new prospective supporters.

 

 

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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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47 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

So the entire top8, play-offs and grand final are redundant then? If the whole point of the game is to see who gets relegated.

Maybe a game that's whole point is possibility of interchanging a very small number of a clubs every so often regardless of the damage that does to the game is a pretty stupidly structured game. 

The game is about winners and losers, as is Sport as a whole. By your standards, we can’t have losers if they have lots of fans, thus rendering the sport as null and void. 

If Leeds were to finish bottom of the 8’s, they’d deservedly go down based upon their performances on the field and the current structure in place, no matter how many fans they have. 

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2 minutes ago, East of the Moon said:

What a load of garbage Aristotle..."car crash" viewing, really?! Instead we could have rows and rows of empty seats which sky regularly show, hell we don't want viewers showing a ground with a decent crowd and atmosphere...your post wins first prize for the post with wishful thinking dipped in envy...don't give up the day job in Greece...

Wow, you are in bad mood today, cant say I blame you, I feel the very same with the dross my team have served up this season, and that is very point I was referring to, your teams performance on the field apart from the Saints game and Wire at the begining of the season from the number of their games that have been aired, never mind looking into the stands for solice, the on field performance as been drab, they were expected to lose and in most cases did lose, trouble is this season which may differ from 2016, Mr Heterington has not put his hand into the "lucky bag" and pulled out a James Segeyaro, good luck.

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I think we're missing the point.

Would it do Leeds good to drop down and rebuild?

Ans = No.  Bradford and Leigh are examples of the pressure to get back up immediately and the dangers of failing.

And RayCee, before Hetherington Leeds weren't in a good place financially either and were very close to going to the wall.   

Bradford's relegation was more than aided in the removal of half the sky funding as some kind of punishment so yes playing wise and financially we were more hampered but look at Leigh this year for the consequences of having a parachute payment and wealthy backer who can't afford to bank roll the team if the central funding drops off significantly. 

So good for Leeds?  Absolutely, categorically, No.  I want the derby to return in SL or not at all. :)

Edited by Scarey71
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31 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Adey, the post was about whether Leeds would benefit having a year in the Championship. If the current system is retained for 2019, then making the Qualifiers will mean they would have four SL teams to aim at getting back up after one season. In the meantime, they could regroup and come back stronger. If Leeds can pull things around without going down that painful route, all the better.

l do think your comparison with the Bulls situation is flawed. The Bulls were in a poor financial condition and kept trying to spend their way to success. Leeds is sound financially and in much better shape overall. 

I don' t want the Rhinos to go down but if they do, hopefully the four promotion spots will still be what’s on offer. If they fail in the 2018 Qualifiers, they will be relegated. That’s the system. It won’t be the end of RL as we know it. 

I was deliberately using extreme hyperbole there, to provoke debate about the wider impact on the SL competition which, after all, is more important that what happens to any individual club (including the likes of Bradford, for the avoidance of doubt). 

No, of course the SL competition would not immediately implode or collapse if Leeds dropped out of it.  Any more than it did when Bradford did.  What I DO think would happen though - and I believe we saw this as Bradford declined and were finally removed - is that the competition as a whole is diminished. And, right now, and especially with the next TV deal (which I currently fear will be much lower than now) in the offing, that would be very damaging for the competition.

 

Edited by Adeybull

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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I think there's a few people getting a little excitable about the potential demise of Leeds - most I'm pleased to see are being a lot more realistic and also see the wider picture.

The same Leeds team that is struggling now has beat most of the top 8 sides at some point in the season, drawn 2 games and lost 5 games by 2 or less points. I don't think any Leeds fan would try and argue Leeds don't deserve to be where they are right now but let's be realistic here - Leeds won't get relegated. Widnes are in real trouble - I mean even this shocking Leeds side beat them 34-0 and I think Toronto replace them, but after that for Leeds to go down you're asking one of Halifax, Tolouse and London to better their results. Just don't see it happening. 

Edited by hunsletgreenandgold
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No would be my initial response to this. Leeds aren't London Broncos who genuinely are now a solid top championship outfit and whereas they were in all fairness were a basket case for much of the latter Super League years. Leeds equally aren't Bradford with major financial problems clouding over the team on the field. I saw a tweet that this is the ultimate legacy of Mcdermott, something I tend to agree with. 

Looking at the Leeds squad now. Moon, Hall and Keinhorst are certain to go at the end of the season. Who knows whether Parcell will take up his third year option. Oledzki is a fantastic prospect but still inexperienced. Walker at FB is a bit too young and lightweight imo to be playing every week. Sutcliffe gets bounded about between positions every week and questions have to be asked how good is he at any of them (his total lack of a passing game infuriates me)? Handley should not be our 1st choice centre next year no way. We've never replaced Galloway in the pack and I'd hope at least 1 of our 3 elder backrowers (preferably ablett or Ferres) is let go of by the end of the season.

So who do we need?

A quality half back to partner Myler - Williams at Wigan could be an option to reset his career. 

A quality winger and perhaps another Centre too. I'd go big for Mcgilvary.

A prop forward. JP made an interesting point about Greg Bird calling him the emotional leader at Catalans, a role he himself fulfilled at Leeds. If JJB or Singleton cannot step into this role then we need to sign a player who can. I hope we hold onto Crosby but hopefully another quality forward will come in too.

I don't think Leeds will go down. Our only problem will be that most teams are looking at us like we're vulnerable and as ever, every team would love to beat Leeds as a statement to the rest of the game. I think playing Toronto last is "fortunate" to say the least. I fully expect TWP to be already promoted by that point looking at their fixtures. 

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10 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I think there's a few people getting a little excitable about the potential demise of Leeds - most I'm pleased to see are being a lot more realistic and also see the wider picture.

The same Leeds team that is struggling now has beat most of the top 8 sides at some point in the season, drawn 2 games and lost 5 games by 2 or less points. I don't think any Leeds fan would try and argue Leeds don't deserve to be where they are right now but let's be realistic here - Leeds won't get relegated. Widnes are in real trouble - I mean even this shocking Leeds side beat them 34-0 and I think Toronto replace them, but after that for Leeds to go down you're asking one of Halifax, Tolouse and London to better there results. Just don't see it happening. 

Agree with all that. My own point (and I explained why I deliberately went OTT with the hyperbole in a post just above yours) was not about whether Leeds would get relegated (they won't, unless some massive uspset happens) nor about the impact on Leeds, but about the impact on the competition - and especially it the current circumstances - WERE it to happen. I was using it to demonstrate what IMO is the current parlous state of the SL competition.

FWIW, I expect Toronto to come up - if the Junta allows it - and Widnes to go down. I would LIKE to see TO come up, but I suspect Salford and expect KR will prove too strong.

ps. I'll say again, though - saying "drop a division to rebuild" - it just does not work! If you can't bounce straight back (which means you did not actually need to rebuild, just get your sheit together again...) then - absent lots of money - you will not "rebuild" - just decline

Edited by Adeybull
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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10 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

Eh?

I don't know a single local Bradford fan who switched allegiance to another SL team.  I bet most other Bradford fans would say the same. Maybe a very very small number might have switched, but most likely only if they lived much nearer to another SL club. I suspect comparatively very few former Bulls fans lived over Cas way.  The most likely switches would have been to Leeds or to Hudds. A few MAY have opted for the former; I think you would struggle to find representatives of the latter.

I am aware of one or two who now watch more local (to them) non SL teams.

My own experience is that the fans were lost to the game, as kids grew up and lost interest, parents no longer had an incentive to go, and the offering and experience declined in its attractiveness to new prospective supporters.

 

 

Bandwagoner's Adey are those who can switch allegience from one club to another and those who dessert their 'home town' team to go to another club for the reason that they are doing better, in my opinion don't warrant fresh air to breathe.

If you don't know but I suspect you will be aware that I come from Leigh and you will know that our club is in a very precarious position of not knowing what next year will bring, we are no more than 12 miles from Wigan (7), Saints(12) or Wire(10) And if those clubs lined up outside of our ground with free season tickets to give away, everyone would walk straight past them.

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I agree that the odds of Leeds going down are slim. I do see them staying up but having another tough year in SL with a team a little short on class with an inexperienced coach. 

I also feel that the current p/r system of potentially four going up or down has in fact only realised two p/r scenarios in three seasons. I don’t se why it needs to change. If teams like Leeds ever get relegated, the harder you make it for them to return, the bigger the problem relegation becomes.


My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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It would be great for the game. If your not good enough your out.

As it should be.

The league below would benifit massively. It would raise the profile. The amount of away fans Leeds would take. Would be a massive finacial boost for clubs hosting them.

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2 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

We’re laughing. He’s not good enough at Super League level. 

That goes for half your pack. And, like Kallum Watkins,  they can't be relied on to kick goals


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3 minutes ago, guess who said:

It would be great for the game. If your not good enough your out.

As it should be.

The league below would benifit massively. It would raise the profile. The amount of away fans Leeds would take. Would be a massive finacial boost for clubs hosting them.

"For the wider game outside SL" - absolutely. As happened with Bradford - or WOULD have, had they not insisted on falling over yet again. Indeed, with a non-SL hat on, the prospect (remote as I think it is) of Leeds in the Championship is beyond mouth-watering (certainly for hard-pressed club chairmen).

For SL? As I have argued above, not so good at all.

The trouble for "the wider game" is that it is SL that draws the money, and the media attention.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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6 minutes ago, guess who said:

It would be great for the game. If your not good enough your out.

As it should be.

The league below would benifit massively. It would raise the profile. The amount of away fans Leeds would take. Would be a massive finacial boost for clubs hosting them.

As a Leeds fan myself I doubt this. Our fanbase isn't like Hull KRs who to their credit held together massively in the Championship. Leeds' following to every game bar Bradford (maybe London) would most likely be poor and I'd be surprised if we took more than 1000 to the summer bash at Blackpool.

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46 minutes ago, Adeybull said:

 Eh?

I don't know a single local Bradford fan who switched allegiance to another SL team.  I bet most other Bradford fans would say the same. Maybe a very very small number might have switched, but most likely only if they lived much nearer to another SL club. I suspect comparatively very few former Bulls fans lived over Cas way.  The most likely switches would have been to Leeds or to Hudds. A few MAY have opted for the former; I think you would struggle to find representatives of the latter.

I am aware of one or two who now watch more local (to them) non SL teams.

My own experience is that the fans were lost to the game, as kids grew up and lost interest, parents no longer had an incentive to go, and the offering and experience declined in its attractiveness to new prospective supporters.

 

 

I also don't remember a time when Cas were getting 3k a match other than the ocassional game. If he means 2005 and 2007 (which is hardly a 'few seasons ago') I believe Cas were still averaging 5k ish a match. In fact I'm sure someone recently posted the average attendances and what was incredible was no matter how good or bad Cas were, the average was consistently between 5.5k and 7.5k. Whether that's a positive or not is open to debate but that's a real core support sticking around regardless of whether Cas were playing Rochdale in the Championship or going for the league leaders shield.

As for Leeds, they are not a badly managed club lurching from one crisis to the next. They haven't managed the turnover of senior players very well but let's not forget they are the current grand final winners. I have a feeling they'll walk the qualifiers and might plod along in mid table for a few seasons but will soon be back up there. Relegation won't help them one bit but if they are relegated then it's entirely fair under the current system. 

 

 

Edited by AB Knight

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3 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

What half would that be?

On yesterday's performance, the back three. And you haven't got a proper ballplayer who can dictate play. You won't go down but you  need new blood for next season.


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I think the missing Bradford fansare mostly younger kids who have a limited amount of disposable income and have decided to spend it elsewhere.

I'm sure they think that only old and stupid diehards like me would travel forty miles and pay £15 - £20 to watch a game against Swinton  or Rochdale .

Hopefully, in twenty years time, they'll find themselves doing exactly the same thing.


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7 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

On yesterday's performance, the back three. And you haven't got a proper ballplayer who can dictate play. You won't go down but you  need new blood for next season.

I don’t support Leeds, I’m glad they’re awful though. 

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1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I don’t support Leeds, I’m glad they’re awful though. 

Me too.☺️

However, the game needs the big clubs to keep afloat and in the public eye.

In another place, Burnley are in Europe. Great for the club and for many fans in Yorkshire, but I don't suppose they'll shift many shirts in China and India.


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