“Not good enough for Super League”

[East Coast Tiger]

I have read this so many times, mostly in relation to TWP, in recent weeks. 

If Widnes lose tomorrow it’s pretty much guaranteed one of Toronto, Toulouse or London will be in SL next year. So if Toronto isn’t good enough after winning the championship easily I can only assume the other two aren’t either.

The new structure will have to include an 11 team SL.

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Under 1 up 1 down style relegation, no team ever beat a team in the division above.

How it usually works is that teams get promoted and then get some new players to bolster the squad. It's quite a tradition.

I'm not sure why the anti Toronto mob keep saying things like 'these are not a SL team'.....of course they aren't - yet.

I’m not anti-Toronto. I am merely pointing out that they aren’t as good as some thought or hoped.

I include myself in that, as I thought they would beat Hull KR at home.

The present squad - if promoted - is at best bottom two SL standard. They will need to strengthen considerably, particularly in the forwards.

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

What do you mean "aren't as good' ? They finished top in their division...what more can they do?  Then, they lose to SL sides....not that much of a shock surely?

They will beat Widnes but some were expecting a bit more against the likes of KR and Salford given their salary spend...

[Cowardly Fan]

4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

They will beat Widnes but some were expecting a bit more against the likes of KR and Salford given their salary spend...

Not really. They still have a weaker squad than those teams and as far as I know the salary spend isn't public. 

It's odd some people seem to act as if Toronto were planning on keeping this squad if they get promoted. It's obvious they would make some significant changes, playing in Super League will help them attract better players too. 

[TboneFromTO]

Meh, I remember last year reading on twitter (this was well before I joined on here) that Toronto were in for a surprise in the Championship and will have a real struggle finishing top 4.  Happened all the time (was screamed at some matches too!). I'm not too worried.  I'm confident we will get to SL for next year, and will buff up our squad accordingly

 

Side note, I know there's alot of Rowley hate in the world, but how on earth do you justify sacking a manager who's won (theoretically) promotion two years in a row?  Some people are just crazy!

 

[deluded pom?]

19 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m not anti-Toronto. I am merely pointing out that they aren’t as good as some thought or hoped.

I include myself in that, as I thought they would beat Hull KR at home.

The present squad - if promoted - is at best bottom two SL standard. They will need to strengthen considerably, particularly in the forwards.

So they’re not SL standard but you think they are at best bottom two SL standard! 

[Man of Kent]

Just now, deluded pom? said:

So they’re not SL standard but you think they are at best bottom two SL standard! 

I never said they weren’t! Oops!

[deluded pom?]

15 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I never said they weren’t! Oops!

Apologies. Who did then?

[Mr Plow]

7 hours ago, East Coast Tiger said:

I have read this so many times, mostly in relation to TWP, in recent weeks. 

If Widnes lose tomorrow it’s pretty much guaranteed one of Toronto, Toulouse or London will be in SL next year. So if Toronto isn’t good enough after winning the championship easily I can only assume the other two aren’t either.

The new structure will have to include an 11 team SL.

In the current structure SL 9th can be relegated and CH 4th promoted. If for example Halifax won enough games to finish 3rd then they have earned the right to be promoted to SL.

St Helens have been the best team in SL this year but if they lose in the playoffs no ones going to go “well the other teams aren’t good enough to win the GF”

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

So they’re not SL standard but you think they are at best bottom two SL standard! 

The present TWP team is definatley bottom two dwellers if not nailed on bottom. I always had them before the comp started in 5th place, my mistake was Widnes, mistakenly I expected them to do much better than they have done, and expected TWP to head their Championship contenders thus 5th placed and in the MPG and contesting it away from Toronto. I expect now that Widnes apart they will lose to the other 3 SL clubs (2 down), surely even with their "bad form" Leeds will be far to good for this Toronto team, especially if Leeds do need the points - I never liked the prospect of Leeds being in a comfortable position and the last game not having any consequence for them whilst TWP could have been in a win or bust situation.

This is not written with any malice whatsoever against TWP, it is how I percieved the situation would pan out, I have neither any hopes for Toronto to be promoted or would be against them doing so, I am not bothered either way, my preferance now that Widnes seems to be a lost cause would be for Toulouse to win the gong, whoever replaces Widnes I do not put it down to that clubs strength I consider it to do with how badly Widnes have performed and genuinely feel for the hardcore fans that have stuck with them, the players have been and continue to be collectivley a disgrace to the fans, shirt and the club.

[Father Ted]

Trouble also for me is that Rowley isn't a Super League calibre coach. They willcertainly need to and will recruit SL or NRL players if they go up but they most certainly will need a SL or NRL calibre coach. Noble has his work cut out and quite a few unpleasant decisions to make.

 

[Damien]

It's amazing how some people seem to think that Toronto would have exactly the same team as they have now if they were promoted to Super League. They have constantly strengthened their team since their inception and on promotion to the Championship were quite ruthless in signing players capable of playing at a higher level and shipping out some of the players that had got them there. It is very naive not to think that they would strengthen heavily on promotion and wouldn't have a much stronger team than they have now.

[Harry Stottle]

32 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

Trouble also for me is that Rowley isn't a Super League calibre coach. They willcertainly need to and will recruit SL or NRL players if they go up but they most certainly will need a SL or NRL calibre coach. Noble has his work cut out and quite a few unpleasant decisions to make.

 

As has been mooted and admitted here by your good self, TWP will need to recruit big time to compete in SL, given that I would not expect any coach to be successful in that comp with the current playing roster at TWP.

I am no big fan of the man or the coach who is Paul Rowley, but you are disproving of him to coach in SL before he has had an opportunity to prove himself, every SL coach you can name had to be given a starting role at a SL club, some made it,  others didn't, some were unfortunate with the hand they were dealt with others very lucky, which quite appropriately brings me around to Nobby, in my opinion he got dealt with 3 Aces at Bradford, the fastest, biggest, may be best players in the comp at that time, but when Plan A wasn't working all he had to revert to was Plan A, got found out with GB, Wigan, Crusaders and Salford, in my opinion not the right guy, albeit he talks a good game, to make deliberations on any coach.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's amazing how some people seem to think that Toronto would have exactly the same team as they have now if they were promoted to Super League. They have constantly strengthened their team since their inception and on promotion to the Championship were quite ruthless in signing players capable of playing at a higher level and shipping out some of the players that had got them there. It is very naive not to think that they would strengthen heavily on promotion and wouldn't have a much stronger team than they have now.

I have asked before Damien, are TWP subject to the same Salary Cap as all the other teams in the comp, Do you know?

[Damien]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I have asked before Damien, are TWP subject to the same Salary Cap as all the other teams in the comp, Do you know?

I would presume so as they obviously have to abide by the same rules as the other teams in their competition. I don't think the other teams would stand them having a different salary cap.

[TboneFromTO]

8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

This weekend I have read a Hull fan saying the official crowd of 10k was more like 5k and ditto for Wigan v Wakefield.

Are they retards too?

Gotta agree with man of kent on This numbers game.  I don't know what the Salford gates were reported as this weekend but when I went to buy tickets the area I was sat in was nearly all sold out, with a few blips and bobs here and there, in reality there were loads of seats empty around me.

Teams are inflating their numbers, and its common in sports.

As for twp home games, because it has been discussed, I haven't been to lamport for twp but I was there for the wolverines matches they used as proof of concept.  It's harder to judge the size of a lamport crowd, no real seating plan, and unlike most championship teams, they open the whole stadium up.

[TboneFromTO]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

I would presume so as they obviously have to abide by the same rules as the other teams in their competition. I don't think the other teams would stand them having a different salary cap.

Your on the forums here at total rugby league, you know that no matter what the reality is, public opinion will differ  as far as I know they were in salary cap this year and I don't think they used their marquis signings as allowed by the RFL.

Total RL did a piece on it in may; http://www.totalrl.com/making-sense-of-torontos-salary-cap-spend/

Apparently (according to the Salford fans near me at the game) the RFL had words with the ref at half time (they were deadly serious) just to give you the idea of how low some deluded fans will go.  

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I would presume so as they obviously have to abide by the same rules as the other teams in their competition. I don't think the other teams would stand them having a different salary cap.

I heard differently, being that they were regarded as an being in an 'expansion area' with no infrastructure to call on they were allowed some further discretionary spending power, that may be correct or otherwise, I seem to remember just as Catalan once benefitted from further benefits, corrections welcome, i think they were allowed more 'overseas' players.

Perhaps someone else with better knowledge may be able to confirm TWP's SC situation.

[Cowardly Fan]

3 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Gotta agree with man of kent on This numbers game.  I don't know what the Salford gates were reported as this weekend but when I went to buy tickets the area I was sat in was nearly all sold out, with a few blips and bobs here and there, in reality there were loads of seats empty around me.

Teams are inflating their numbers, and its common in sports.

As for twp home games, because it has been discussed, I haven't been to lamport for twp but I was there for the wolverines matches they used as proof of concept.  It's harder to judge the size of a lamport crowd, no real seating plan, and unlike most championship teams, they open the whole stadium up.

All sport teams report attendances as tickets sold, mainly because they don't have an accurate figure of the number in the ground (and it also helps that the tickets sold will always be higher).  However, you do end up with situations like this where people have bought a ticket (typically a Season Ticket) and don't turn up.  It's common in sports - every year the papers will do a couple of articles on the empty seats at Manchester United or Arsenal for cup games.  A large amount of people appear to be ignorant about the way attendances are reported and reasons why, including in the media.  

[TboneFromTO]

10 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

All sport teams report attendances as tickets sold, mainly because they don't have an accurate figure of the number in the ground (and it also helps that the tickets sold will always be higher).  However, you do end up with situations like this where people have bought a ticket (typically a Season Ticket) and don't turn up.  It's common in sports - every year the papers will do a couple of articles on the empty seats at Manchester United or Arsenal for cup games.  A large amount of people appear to be ignorant about the way attendances are reported and reasons why, including in the media.  

 I am beginning to doubt that these seats were sold at all.  I suspect some teams may be inflating their numbers beyond sales.   I mean when I bought my seats they were the last pair in the row available, and there were 8 empty seats in my row alone.  Not to mention all the empty seats around me (which presumably were "sold") if I had to estimate, in W05 alone there were about 150 empty seats, when I purchased my tickets there were maybe 60. You can't hide behind season ticket holders not showing up on that percentage.

And bull they don't have an accurate number on the ground. Salford were scanning tickets - a computer does the counting.....

 

[Toby Chopra]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I heard differently, being that they were regarded as an being in an 'expansion area' with no infrastructure to call on they were allowed some further discretionary spending power, that may be correct or otherwise, I seem to remember just as Catalan once benefitted from further benefits, corrections welcome, i think they were allowed more 'overseas' players.

Perhaps someone else with better knowledge may be able to confirm TWP's SC situation.

The bottom line is, do you think TWP's team looks better on paper than Wigan, Saints or Warrington'? I certainly don't. In which case it's easy to conclude they're within cap. All the rest is just stirring. 

If they sign 5 starting state of origin players in 2019, we can look at it again. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

The bottom line is, do you think TWP's team looks better on paper than Wigan, Saints or Warrington'? I certainly don't. In which case it's easy to conclude they're within cap. All the rest is just stirring. 

If they sign 5 starting state of origin players in 2019, we can look at it again. 

Yeah that's a good way of putting it. When you look at it like that Toronto are well within the cap. On paper even some of the Super League teams in the middle 8s, like Leeds and Salford, look to be spending significantly more too.

[Cowardly Fan]

14 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

 I am beginning to doubt that these seats were sold at all.  I suspect some teams may be inflating their numbers beyond sales.   I mean when I bought my seats they were the last pair in the row available, and there were 8 empty seats in my row alone.  Not to mention all the empty seats around me (which presumably were "sold") if I had to estimate, in W05 alone there were about 150 empty seats, when I purchased my tickets there were maybe 60. You can't hide behind season ticket holders not showing up on that percentage.

And bull they don't have an accurate number on the ground. Salford were scanning tickets - a computer does the counting.....

 

There could be comps or more likely they had just restricted the sections for sale, so 'almost sold out' doesn't mean they have sold the capacity.  

It was part of my job at a football club for years to try and analyse those figures....you get a count from the scanning but we knew it wasn't fully accurate based on some simple testing (there's a number of reasons tech and human error).  That was at one of the biggest football clubs in the world, at Salford I'd expect the tech is worse and likely people pay less attention to the figures due to limited resources.  

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, Cowardly Fan said:

There could be comps or more likely they had just restricted the sections for sale, so 'almost sold out' doesn't mean they have sold the capacity.  

It was part of my job at a football club for years to try and analyse those figures....you get a count from the scanning but we knew it wasn't fully accurate based on some simple testing (there's a number of reasons tech and human error).  That was at one of the biggest football clubs in the world, at Salford I'd expect the tech is worse and likely people pay less attention to the figures due to limited resources.  

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree.  It is entirely possible to get an accurate read out from tickets collected (scanned). If you think the aj bell (a very modern stadium) has subpar ticketing systems, I would disagree.  If a ticket doesn't scan you hit a button and the computer notes it.  Turnstiles don't open. Without the computer letting it.  If it's computer error, then some idiot paid for bad software.

I'm sure AI is at the place that it can count from pictures now.   Maybe you'll say there's a couple thousand in the toilets.

Awful lot of excuses come out when you talk about attendance anywhere but Toronto.

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

The bottom line is, do you think TWP's team looks better on paper than Wigan, Saints or Warrington'? I certainly don't. In which case it's easy to conclude they're within cap. All the rest is just stirring. 

If they sign 5 starting state of origin players in 2019, we can look at it again. 

 

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yeah that's a good way of putting it. When you look at it like that Toronto are well within the cap. On paper even some of the Super League teams in the middle 8s, like Leeds and Salford, look to be spending significantly more too.

It is not the quality on show but how you spend that money, Leigh this season spent 1.68M on wages probably far in excess of all in the Championship, maybe except TWP, and a number of SL clubs, but they did not spend the money wisely, I was not stirring at all Toby just curious to understand if TWP do go on a recruitment drive are they subject to the same rules as everyone else, that was the question I first stated, nothing more.

Obviously if you are a TWP 'backslapper' you take any legitimate question has being an affront to its validity, go on the defensive and use something quite different to substantiate your argument. If you know the answer then please share, not much point making conclusions you are not sure of.