New Stadium for Workington

[GeordieTownie]

6 hours ago, I beg to Differ said:

I think your facts need a little examining, and I don’t know this but i’m throwing it out there as a guesstimate (you’ll know all about them Mark).

Lets say for instance Allerdale has historic debt/loan of £10m - if it was secured / negotiated in say 2007 and it was to be paid back at Bank of England base rate (5% back then) - we would currently be paying £500k per year - interest only.

This month we go back and say we want to renegotiate our loans 

Add £10m (a guesstimate) for the Sport Centre Build.

Add £15m (a guesstimate) for the Stadium.

The new debt is now £35m - again using Bank of England base rate (0.75%) - our interest is now £262.5k per year. So we’re actually paying out less, dorsn’t Sound like there’d be a need to cut services or increase council tax to me.

PS Mark - how’s that sports centre that you vehemently protested against performing? Are visitor numbers up? Presumably there’s health benefits? Your keen on facts so i’m sure you’ll be keen to tell the public - or is it just negativity and propulism you deal in?

 

 

I think you’d be lucky to get a loan at base rate but I’d agree with the principle.

Allerdale aren’t going to build a stadium if they’re going to be saddled with a debt mountain and unaffordable repayments.

Without seeing the plans and the potential revenue streams it’s difficult to write it off as unaffordable.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

got to admit, I'm very sceptical about this stadium and the costs involved in construction and overall running costs.

Everyone (including Mark Jenkinson) agrees that West Cumbria needs a modern stadium, which would be the only modern stadium in Cumbria and be a huge asset to the area IF it's sustainable and has been properly costed.

Now I don't know how this is going to be funded, there's obviously going to be borrowings, plus grants from the Football Association RLF and Sport England, but would the full build cost have to be financed in full, or could additional money be found by selling off all the land at Derwent Park to service the debt, IF the stadium was ever vacated by the Comets?

Would revenue be raised by selling off other bits of unused land in the Borough to make the stadium construction cost neutral to rate payers? 

If it is, then great, crack on, I'm all for it, but if the costs are to be paid for in the form of increased Council Tax, then I want to know about it, and how it will affect me as a rate payer, as I don't think its fair that 90% of the rate payers should be financing a project which will be used by less than 10% of the population.

One thing is for certain, there's no way Reds or Town can pay excessive rentals on their combined crowds of 1000, so what would each club be expected to pay and how can they control some of their revenue streams?

I've seen on the plans there's office space planned for the grandstand which is great, and would contribute towards the upkeep and running costs, but all this nonsense about Kendal Calling type concerts as revenue streams is rubbish. Anyone who knows anything about running these type of events would tell you very few of them make money, as the bands take 90% plus of the ticket money.

In principle its a big Yes from me, but more information about the financing and expected annual running costs needs to be discussed in great length before any decision should be made, otherwise this could become a white elephant which saddles our area with debt for years to come! 

[rockerlad]

that's a great post DTTRR. I'd be highly surprised if reds and town directors walked into this without asking these questions. I'm hoping for answers at the reds AGM next month. 

[town4me]

32 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

got to admit, I'm very sceptical about this stadium and the costs involved in construction and overall running costs.

Everyone (including Mark Jenkinson) agrees that West Cumbria needs a modern stadium, which would be the only modern stadium in Cumbria and be a huge asset to the area IF it's sustainable and has been properly costed.

Now I don't know how this is going to be funded, there's obviously going to be borrowings, plus grants from the Football Association RLF and Sport England, but would the full build cost have to be financed in full, or could additional money be found by selling off all the land at Derwent Park to service the debt, IF the stadium was ever vacated by the Comets?

Would revenue be raised by selling off other bits of unused land in the Borough to make the stadium construction cost neutral to rate payers? 

If it is, then great, crack on, I'm all for it, but if the costs are to be paid for in the form of increased Council Tax, then I want to know about it, and how it will affect me as a rate payer, as I don't think its fair that 90% of the rate payers should be financing a project which will be used by less than 10% of the population.

One thing is for certain, there's no way Reds or Town can pay excessive rentals on their combined crowds of 1000, so what would each club be expected to pay and how can they control some of their revenue streams?

I've seen on the plans there's office space planned for the grandstand which is great, and would contribute towards the upkeep and running costs, but all this nonsense about Kendal Calling type concerts as revenue streams is rubbish. Anyone who knows anything about running these type of events would tell you very few of them make money, as the bands take 90% plus of the ticket money.

In principle its a big Yes from me, but more information about the financing and expected annual running costs needs to be discussed in great length before any decision should be made, otherwise this could become a white elephant which saddles our area with debt for years to come! 

some good points but Do you think it Would  really get the go ahead if it wasn't financially viable??  I doubt it very much. As for music events  i think you're a little quick to put them down. 

[rockerlad]

10 minutes ago, town4me said:

Do you think it Would  really get the go ahead if it wasn't financially viable??  I doubt it very much. As for music events  i think you're a little quick to put them down. 

it would be difficult. reds currently have 3 teams using BP. 1st team, reserves and ladies add town to that and that's 4 teams. maybe the reserves and ladies would use the training pitch instead? who knows. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

51 minutes ago, town4me said:

some good points but Do you think it Would  really get the go ahead if it wasn't financially viable??  I doubt it very much. As for music events  i think you're a little quick to put them down. 

I don't know the facts on the stadium viability which is why I asked the question. 

In regards to music events, what type of bands would fetch crowds of 10,000+ to Workington (which takes into account the pitch being utilised for standing) ??

Stadium events are usually reserved for bands who are too big to play the Arenas which have an average capacity of 10,000 +, so I stand by my statement that it shouldn't be included in projections for income streams. IF it does happen, then look on it as a bonus!

For the stadium to be viable it needs to be utilised 365 days a year, which is why the office space is so important.

In some respects the pitch use is secondary 

[town4me]

I agree with most of what you say mate.  The music event thing needs looked at in depth and i doubt it would rake in huge sums of money but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Carlisle racecourse dont do so bad for acts and its only 30 miles up the road. I believe there is a company involved already to put the plan and artist's impression etc together.  So would it even get to this early stage if it simply wasnt viable? We'll find out eventually i suppose.   If its do-able it will be  very exciting but deep down i think due to the way things go in this area there may be one obstacle too many put in the way.

[Marrafan]

46 minutes ago, town4me said:

I agree with most of what you say mate.  The music event thing needs looked at in depth and i doubt it would rake in huge sums of money but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Carlisle racecourse dont do so bad for acts and its only 30 miles up the road. I believe there is a company involved already to put the plan and artist's impression etc together.  So would it even get to this early stage if it simply wasnt viable? We'll find out eventually i suppose.   If its do-able it will be  very exciting but deep down i think due to the way things go in this area there may be one obstacle too many put in the way.

CArlisle Racecourse events are usually put on by the Jockey Club. They utilise most racecourses at meetings during the summer.

[Hate the rec]

I for one hope it goes ahead, but what is the council going to do with the river bank next to the navvies bridge up to the old gray hound track, this bank is being eaten away by the river and if something is not done soon we won't have any land to put the stadium on!!!  

Can MJ answer that seeing he knows everything else. 

[silverfox]

This topic on the new stadium is getting a bit boring . why don't you wait for facts,  before you put out on the forum  ,because some stuff that's been put on is  unbelievable . Go down to the sports centre on the 4th Dec between 1pm - 8pm  you might be a bit wiser of what's going on .

[The Voodooguru]

7 minutes ago, silverfox said:

This topic on the new stadium is getting a bit boring . why don't you wait for facts,  before you put out on the forum  ,because some stuff that's been put on is  unbelievable . Go down to the sports centre on the 4th Dec between 1pm - 8pm  you might be a bit wiser of what's going on .

If it bores you just dont read it, but you are on a forum where things like this are discussed.

[silverfox]

The way the subject on many topic goes off what you were discussing, you don't know if its going to be boring until you read it . its the figures that people are coming up with that's boring ,because unless your the BOD you wont know what's in the pipeline .ie  Sponsorship  Sports Grants .Government development grants etc . This is the best thing Sports wise that could happen in this area, so get behind it and move with the times , Look at the new sports centre  all the negativity that was going on when that was first mentioned ,and look at it now its booming .

[Limmertime]

5 hours ago, Hate the rec said:

I for one hope it goes ahead, but what is the council going to do with the river bank next to the navvies bridge up to the old gray hound track, this bank is being eaten away by the river and if something is not done soon we won't have any land to put the stadium on!!!  

Can MJ answer that seeing he knows everything else. 

Don't quote me on this but as well as the 2 sports facilities (new stadium and training pitch) the whole riverbank area will be regenerated.

https://www.allerdale.gov.uk/en/stadium/ is the latest link showing development of the riverside.

[Brookie]

I think they'd be best rebuilding DP bit by bit. Starting with both ends

[Limmertime]

Personally I hope the stadium gets built, I do agree the costs are high but this includes 2 sports facilities, landscaping and riverside regeneration - so the stadium itself is not costing 15million, think people forget its not just a 'stadium' project.

The concern for Allerdale will be how to justify the cost, and the plans suggest community area, office space and bar/function facilities as well as the training pitch - all can generate income, but will it be enough?

In terms of sport, yes crowds are low but the new stadium brings both teams into the future, wonder how many fans (home and away) are deterred by BP or DP due to it being a substandard venue? Reducing running costs will allow both clubs to invest in the teams - improving standards and hopefully results - attracting more fans.

The stadium will complete what seems like a 2 part process to make cloffocks area a sport village - we need more sport facilities and I think the stadium with the 2nd 'training pitch' will become a valuable community asset.

[Route66]

4 minutes ago, Limmertime said:

Personally I hope the stadium gets built, I do agree the costs are high but this includes 2 sports facilities, landscaping and riverside regeneration - so the stadium itself is not costing 15million, think people forget its not just a 'stadium' project.

The concern for Allerdale will be how to justify the cost, and the plans suggest community area, office space and bar/function facilities as well as the training pitch - all can generate income, but will it be enough?

In terms of sport, yes crowds are low but the new stadium brings both teams into the future, wonder how many fans (home and away) are deterred by BP or DP due to it being a substandard venue? Reducing running costs will allow both clubs to invest in the teams - improving standards and hopefully results - attracting more fans.

The stadium will complete what seems like a 2 part process to make cloffocks area a sport village - we need more sport facilities and I think the stadium with the 2nd 'training pitch' will become a valuable community asset.

Got to agree with that ,the artists impressions look great,a facility like that so close to the town centre is a winner, if we don't take this opportunity this time semi professional sport in west cumbria will continue to decline 

[wiggler]

i am sure a new stadium in Workington could be delightful for both Town and Reds but why should the Allerdale taxpayer fund it?  There are higher priorities such as education, elderly care, libraries, roads and health.  If Allerdale spends millions on a sports ground then that is money that cannot be spent elsewhere.  If Town and Reds cannot fund their own stadium then why do they deserve to be in business?  Both are supposedly commercial businesses but they have both run their businesses into the ground so why should the taxpayer save them?  Failing businesses being propped up by public sector funding is not a viable long term solution.  

[GeordieTownie]

1 minute ago, wiggler said:

i am sure a new stadium in Workington could be delightful for both Town and Reds but why should the Allerdale taxpayer fund it?  There are higher priorities such as education, elderly care, libraries, roads and health.  If Allerdale spends millions on a sports ground then that is money that cannot be spent elsewhere.  If Town and Reds cannot fund their own stadium then why do they deserve to be in business?  Both are supposedly commercial businesses but they have both run their businesses into the ground so why should the taxpayer save them?  Failing businesses being propped up by public sector funding is not a viable long term solution.  

How do you know how it’s funded? Have you seen the business plan?

[tbgfc]

13 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

How do you know how it’s funded? Have you seen the business plan?

If Mark Jenkinson is to be believed no one has seen a business plan as it doesnt exist. Have you seen it ????

[Mark Jenkinson]

7th November, £600k already spent, Allerdale confirmed under FOI that the business case has not completed and stadium cost is in the planned borrowing figures.

Unfinanced expenditure (borrowing) confirmed as potentially £38m over three years. Current borrowing £15m, 2015 borrowing £10m. Council tax income ~£5m.

 

 

[wiggler]

1 hour ago, GeordieTownie said:

How do you know how it’s funded? Have you seen the business plan?

Thank you for replying to my post.  To answer your questions - I don't know how it is (proposed to be) funded.  I have not seen the business plan.  I was asking a question, as it seems likely that the Allerdale tax payer will bear some of the cost and I think any money spent on this project might be better utilised elsewhere in the community.

[GeordieTownie]

15 minutes ago, wiggler said:

Thank you for replying to my post.  To answer your questions - I don't know how it is (proposed to be) funded.  I have not seen the business plan.  I was asking a question, as it seems likely that the Allerdale tax payer will bear some of the cost and I think any money spent on this project might be better utilised elsewhere in the community.

If the tax payer has to foot the bill I agree, if not, then it’s a no brainer.

[The Voodooguru]

11 hours ago, wiggler said:

i am sure a new stadium in Workington could be delightful for both Town and Reds but why should the Allerdale taxpayer fund it?  There are higher priorities such as education, elderly care, libraries, roads and health.  If Allerdale spends millions on a sports ground then that is money that cannot be spent elsewhere.  If Town and Reds cannot fund their own stadium then why do they deserve to be in business?  Both are supposedly commercial businesses but they have both run their businesses into the ground so why should the taxpayer save them?  Failing businesses being propped up by public sector funding is not a viable long term solution.  

If you are looking for a whole load of back slaps and high fives you are probably posting on the wrong forum pal, and some of the priorities you state aren't in Allerdale councils remit anyway.  But yeah the general point is valid.

Then again you could be just trying to poke a hornets nest for a bit of fun......

[town4me]

More and more new posters appearing on the forum lately.  They seem to be anti new stadium or pro haven RL. Nice to see we are providing them with a platform. 

[Route66]

The new stadium isn't just a home for town and reds it's an opportunity and inspiration for any sports mad youngster in cumbria to achieve in their chosen sports. Time and time again tax payers money is spent on projects that I don't need or want ,maybe it's time the sporting people of cumbria get something in return