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New Stadium for Workington


Rango

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1 hour ago, rockerlad said:

it has to be a new stadium. a fresh start for both clubs. Derwent park has recently had a 500k revamp both are well past the sell by date imo. 

I agree and hope its a new stadium but something would be better than nothing 

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23 hours ago, rockerlad said:

all that information he posted can be obtained under the freedom of information act. he seems to think the council have no intentions of building a new stadium and just wants to get the reds out of borough park.

If the council wanted the Red's out of borough park then they just have to end the lease. It's a load of rubbish from a guy who opposes anything the council proposes. He's a posh cocky Robinson there would be no new sports centre or anything else new in the Town if these people get their way.

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1 hour ago, unicorn106 said:

If the council wanted the Red's out of borough park then they just have to end the lease. It's a load of rubbish from a guy who opposes anything the council proposes. He's a posh cocky Robinson there would be no new sports centre or anything else new in the Town if these people get their way.

they can't just end the lease we have 8 years left of the lease. 

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10 hours ago, rockerlad said:

they can't just end the lease we have 8 years left of the lease. 

 

10 hours ago, rockerlad said:

they can't just end the lease we have 8 years left of the lease. 

I meant to say not renew it.

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Newcastle has a great set up great bars and hospitality and more terrace than seats a smaller version for us would be great. I can't see them building anything bigger than 8k capacity which is slightly less than we have now. I don't know what the capacity of BP is but I've been in there among a 21k crowd but the introduction of concrete terracing to replace the railway sleepers in 1970 massively reduced the capacity.

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2 hours ago, unicorn106 said:

Newcastle has a great set up great bars and hospitality and more terrace than seats a smaller version for us would be great. I can't see them building anything bigger than 8k capacity which is slightly less than we have now. I don't know what the capacity of BP is but I've been in there among a 21k crowd but the introduction of concrete terracing to replace the railway sleepers in 1970 massively reduced the capacity.

borough park is 2500 I believe 

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On 9/27/2018 at 9:47 PM, unicorn106 said:

If the council wanted the Red's out of borough park then they just have to end the lease. It's a load of rubbish from a guy who opposes anything the council proposes. He's a posh cocky Robinson there would be no new sports centre or anything else new in the Town if these people get their way.

I may as well contribute while I’m being slated.

My role as Deputy Leader of the opposition is to scrutinise decisions made by the 8 councillors on the Executive, while the other 48 have no voice.

My role as a councillor is to ensure that the council is serving the whole of the borough effectively and that sound financial judgements are made.

My aim as a Workingtonian is to ensure the future of two clubs that require commitment and investment to survive. But whatever choices are made must be sustainable for everyone.

A new stadium isn’t cheap, and borrowing will have to be repaid. If that falls on the council, then taxes rise, services are cut and jobs are lost. If it falls on the clubs, then it’s a real risk to their future viability.

There is no question that we are lacking a decent stadium, but it’s easy to let your heart get carried away with promises of shiny new things.

A £10-15m pound stadium will need £20k/week to cover the borrowing alone.

For the record, I’ve released no confidential documentation or information.

I would implore anyone to look at Leigh, who can’t afford to use their pitch; to look at York, which has the same designers as the proposed stadium and has taken 10 years and £44m; to look at Scunthorpe United who were promised the earth by a similar project to the Allerdale Investment Partnership - Lincolnshire Lakes involving the very same people.

Thers is not a lot of time between now and the RLWC. Bad decisions are made in haste. 

I believe there is the will from the clubs to work together to secure their respective futures. I believe the clubs are acting in good faith. But I believe that one, or both, will be sold down the river.

If the proposed site is correct, then Allerdale don’t own half of the site. That was the same reason as Pow Beck failed, no stadium and a bill for taxpayers in excess of £1m - and that was only a £5m project.

From an RL point of view, where does Koukash fit in? He was invited by the council to the dinner where the stadium was revealed. Why? Is him taking Town and turning them into ‘Cumbria Lakers’ what Town fans want? He’s on record saying his Cumbrian Super League team would need to be a new team, not a rebrand or a merger - so how would three teams sharing the stadium work out? Who gets pushed out?

So many questions - but there wouldn’t be if there was any transparency around it.

 

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If it doesn't happen, neither club will be here in 20 years. The fan base of both clubs are ageing and not drawing in new fans to take there place. Have a questionnaire to find out what people really want. I'd edge my bets that more would support a new stadium than to carry on with the lack muster facilities both clubs currently have.

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11 minutes ago, townie88 said:

If it doesn't happen, neither club will be here in 20 years. The fan base of both clubs are ageing and not drawing in new fans to take there place. Have a questionnaire to find out what people really want. I'd edge my bets that more would support a new stadium than to carry on with the lack muster facilities both clubs currently have.

Of course they’ll want a new stadium, we all do.

But will the clubs that struggle to find £65k/yr to maintain current facilities, be able to find that every month to pay down a loan - or pay rent to a council that has to pay down a loan? The council can’t do this for nothing, and haven’t the money to do it at all.

There is a plan by ABC to borrow £38m over three years for unspecified projects. For context, borrowing was at £9m after the crash, it’s at £16m now. The £2.3m/yr to find £38m borrowing is the equivalent of over 15% of the current annual budget - or the equivalent of 50% of council tax income.

Better, in my opinion, to incrementally update a current site. Build the gate figures, and make the new stadium sustainable.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Of course they’ll want a new stadium, we all do.

But will the clubs that struggle to find £65k/yr to maintain current facilities, be able to find that every month to pay down a loan - or pay rent to a council that has to pay down a loan? The council can’t do this for nothing, and haven’t the money to do it at all.

There is a plan by ABC to borrow £38m over three years for unspecified projects. For context, borrowing was at £9m after the crash, it’s at £16m now. The £2.3m/yr to find £38m borrowing is the equivalent of over 15% of the current annual budget - or the equivalent of 50% of council tax income.

Better, in my opinion, to incrementally update a current site. Build the gate figures, and make the new stadium sustainable.

 

We're you in favour of the new sports centre ?

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2 minutes ago, unicorn106 said:

We're you in favour of the new sports centre ?

Not borrowing to build a £10.5m centre on a flood plain, when Moorclose had been quoted at £2.7m to bring it up to modern day standards I wasn’t. Could have doubled the Moorclose quote and nearly ended up not borrowing.

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1 hour ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

I may as well contribute while I’m being slated.

My role as Deputy Leader of the opposition is to scrutinise decisions made by the 8 councillors on the Executive, while the other 48 have no voice.

My role as a councillor is to ensure that the council is serving the whole of the borough effectively and that sound financial judgements are made.

My aim as a Workingtonian is to ensure the future of two clubs that require commitment and investment to survive. But whatever choices are made must be sustainable for everyone.

A new stadium isn’t cheap, and borrowing will have to be repaid. If that falls on the council, then taxes rise, services are cut and jobs are lost. If it falls on the clubs, then it’s a real risk to their future viability.

There is no question that we are lacking a decent stadium, but it’s easy to let your heart get carried away with promises of shiny new things.

A £10-15m pound stadium will need £20k/week to cover the borrowing alone.

For the record, I’ve released no confidential documentation or information.

I would implore anyone to look at Leigh, who can’t afford to use their pitch; to look at York, which has the same designers as the proposed stadium and has taken 10 years and £44m; to look at Scunthorpe United who were promised the earth by a similar project to the Allerdale Investment Partnership - Lincolnshire Lakes involving the very same people.

Thers is not a lot of time between now and the RLWC. Bad decisions are made in haste. 

I believe there is the will from the clubs to work together to secure their respective futures. I believe the clubs are acting in good faith. But I believe that one, or both, will be sold down the river.

If the proposed site is correct, then Allerdale don’t own half of the site. That was the same reason as Pow Beck failed, no stadium and a bill for taxpayers in excess of £1m - and that was only a £5m project.

From an RL point of view, where does Koukash fit in? He was invited by the council to the dinner where the stadium was revealed. Why? Is him taking Town and turning them into ‘Cumbria Lakers’ what Town fans want? He’s on record saying his Cumbrian Super League team would need to be a new team, not a rebrand or a merger - so how would three teams sharing the stadium work out? Who gets pushed out?

So many questions - but there wouldn’t be if there was any transparency around it.

 

£10m over 20 years at 3% is nowhere near £20k a week? And I’d expect the rate would actually be less.

Also, where’s the £65k figure from the clubs coming from?

Ultimately the clubs wouldn’t agree to it if they couldn’t afford it.

I understand your concerns but would it not be better to wait until more facts become available before throwing figures about.

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8 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

£10m over 20 years at 3% is nowhere near £20k a week? And I’d expect the rate would actually be less.

Also, where’s the £65k figure from the clubs coming from?

Ultimately the clubs wouldn’t agree to it if they couldn’t afford it.

I understand your concerns but would it not be better to wait until more facts become available before throwing figures about.

The £20k/wk was a crude calculation from the councils estimated borrowing costs of £2.3m/yr on £38m, based on the top of of my £10-15m comment.

the £65k/yr is from what I’ve read on this forum I think, and the Reds forum - £25k/yr for BP and £40k/yr for DP.

The Public Works Loan Board 30yr rate (an assumption from Leisure Centre borrowing terms) is 2.8%, £15m being £61k/month repayment.

 

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4 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

The £20k/wk was a crude calculation from the councils estimated borrowing costs of £2.3m/yr on £38m, based on the top of of my £10-15m comment.

the £65k/yr is from what I’ve read on this forum I think, and the Reds forum - £25k/yr for BP and £40k/yr for DP.

The Public Works Loan Board 30yr rate (an assumption from Leisure Centre borrowing terms) is 2.8%, £15m being £61k/month repayment.

 

But surely it wouldn’t need fully financed?

I would also expect borough park to cost more (both clubs annual accounts would show it on companies house) than DP the state it’s in.

And similarly you’d expect they had other revenue streams from the venture?

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Mark without being disrespectful at the top of your original comment you show your hand. In that it is your role to scrutinise decision made by the council, and as the opposition to make as much noise as possible. Let's face it this is political and you are scaremongering with worst case scenario stuff. I'm not passing comment on the current ABC lending figures or any comment on how good or bad a job they are doing because this is a rugby forum.

If neither stadia was used I assume the pieces of land could be sold for development, would this not contribute towards the new venture?

You have used researched examples of where these ventures have not worked. Did you find any examples of where it did work to use as a blueprint? If not why not?

You offer little solution to the problem which may see our two semi pro sporting clubs go the the wall because of the facilities they have to try to maintain other than to piecemeal repair one stadium with no costs whatsoever. How do you know this won't cost more? I'm sure when the new stand was recently built at Liverpool's Anfield stadium they said it cost more than if was not part of the existing set up. Why would this be different? Have seen what difference the 500k made to DP from its recent upgrade? You are polishing a ###### to be honest. If you come up with a viable alternative surely the club's and the council under pressure from it's public have no option but to pick the better option.

As a tax payer it is in my interest that vast sums of our money is not squandered, yet as I'm sure as I do you want our kids to grow up in an area with excellent sporting facilities so rhey can all grow up as happy healthy kids, which unfortunately does cost money to provide. The council has an obligation to its tax paying public to provide this in my opinion. This area has been called one of the most obese areas of the country and key to kids growing up playing sports instead of fortnite is having something to emulate and aim for. The Reds and Town are inegral to this as playing for your home town club is attainable. 

Mark, you have to realise this situation needs addressed so instead of shouting "that wont work!" as loud as you can because it's politically your role to do, go the extra mile and come up with a viable solution with costs and how it will be funded. You may even get some votes out of it if that's what is motivating you in this argument. 

The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but thats the way to bet!

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5 minutes ago, The Voodooguru said:

Mark without being disrespectful at the top of your original comment you show your hand. In that it is your role to scrutinise decision made by the council, and as the opposition to make as much noise as possible. Let's face it this is political and you are scaremongering with worst case scenario stuff. I'm not passing comment on the current ABC lending figures or any comment on how good or bad a job they are doing because this is a rugby forum.

If neither stadia was used I assume the pieces of land could be sold for development, would this not contribute towards the new venture?

You have used researched examples of where these ventures have not worked. Did you find any examples of where it did work to use as a blueprint? If not why not?

You offer little solution to the problem which may see our two semi pro sporting clubs go the the wall because of the facilities they have to try to maintain other than to piecemeal repair one stadium with no costs whatsoever. How do you know this won't cost more? I'm sure when the new stand was recently built at Liverpool's Anfield stadium they said it cost more than if was not part of the existing set up. Why would this be different? Have seen what difference the 500k made to DP from its recent upgrade? You are polishing a ###### to be honest. If you come up with a viable alternative surely the club's and the council under pressure from it's public have no option but to pick the better option.

As a tax payer it is in my interest that vast sums of our money is not squandered, yet as I'm sure as I do you want our kids to grow up in an area with excellent sporting facilities so rhey can all grow up as happy healthy kids, which unfortunately does cost money to provide. The council has an obligation to its tax paying public to provide this in my opinion. This area has been called one of the most obese areas of the country and key to kids growing up playing sports instead of fortnite is having something to emulate and aim for. The Reds and Town are inegral to this as playing for your home town club is attainable. 

Mark, you have to realise this situation needs addressed so instead of shouting "that wont work!" as loud as you can because it's politically your role to do, go the extra mile and come up with a viable solution with costs and how it will be funded. You may even get some votes out of it if that's what is motivating you in this argument. 

Scrutiny is not the same as just 'making noise'. I also don't think I've used anything like worst-case scenario. I've extrapolated from the current costs of concept design, but that is only set to increase this month, followed by a Stage 3 + planning contract award also in October. We'll be £500k in without a feasibility study, without a sod cut, and without owning the proposed site if speculation for the site is correct.

Decisions need to be financially sound, beneficial to the whole borough and most of all sustainable. I don't think razing the current stadiums to the ground and borrowing to build a new one meets any of those criteria. Our very recent history with land sales suggests we're not getting best value, so how much would land sale contribute? According to the Times and Star ABC have offered £50k for Lonsdale Park, so they can't realistically think that BP is worth considerably more. The training pitch opposite was sold to the AIP for £390k in 2014. The AIP have had more than just a hand in these ideas, and you just need to look at Lincolnshire Lakes to see how it tuns out.

My solution, as I stated earlier in this thread, would be to replace an existing stadium incrementally - starting while we still have two. Replace the pitch, build a new main stand with associated facilities, build the gate figures, build other income streams, replace another stand, etc. Substantially less initial investment, resulting in less borrowing. Critically, much more sustainable for the clubs. Ideally, I'd like to see investment in proper community youth facilities - we've got some ###### poor football and rugby youth facilities dotted all around the place, that wouldn't take a lot to increase quality and capacity. We have athletics teams that have to go outside of the borough just to train

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