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TBone

Professional sport and morality

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Rich material here for next week’s sermon, thanks! However I’n not going to preach here save to say we are all hypocrites of course - we all chelp loudly that the likes of Amazon and Starbucks should do the moral thing and pay more in taxes yet do our own dubious tax returns and cheer to the rafters the try awarded from the blatant forward pass that everyone in the crowd except the ref and TJ sees. Thankfully there still is a sense of right from wrong, whatever clog dance may say, and even godless Tbone recognises as such (they even know it in Batley or so I’m told) so there is still hope. Of course the “get away with it” mentality it will still continue on the field as a fundamental part of the flawed human being (especially where £ is concerned) but we can take comfort from the checks and balances that help keep anarchy at bay even if they have to be dressed up as VR, retrospective match analysis and historic branding as a cheat. (note I do not think MCB deliberately cheated here but genuinely thought he had scored). Much as I would like I am realistic to know we won’t see Thomas Moore’s Utopia on Earth because man’s basic greed will prevail though I am sure had he known about it they would be playing TGG there! 

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3 hours ago, TBone said:

I get your point, sounds kind of dumb does’t it. But now tell me how you explain to your children why they were doing wrong when the nice policeman brought them home after they ‘forgot’ to tell the shopkeeper they had some sweets in their pockets. Or do you just tell them, hard luck you got caught?

In the MCB case we all saw him take ‘them’. And, yes, there isn’t a sanction for MCB. And some people will be OK with it (Toronto). But others (Toulouse) will definitely think something was stolen from them, just as pretty much the whole of England was outraged when the Maradona ‘goal’ was replayed on TV.

However, in support of your position the rules of the game state that:

BUT they also include that a player is guilty of misconduct

If the true spirit of the game includes the player celebrating to influence the referee towards their desired outcome then that’s fine. Or is it?

The thing that gets me about this non-try is why Hewer never went to the video ref to check the grounding/whether there was a foot in touch? 

The ref confers with the video ref in every televised game anyway: Perhaps the powers-that-be should consider having the video ref check the grounding whenever a try is scored as a matter of course?

Edited by Dave W

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On 9/20/2018 at 5:46 PM, TBone said:

Is professional sport so focussed on winning that morality is overlooked? We’ve had famous examples in other sports of players teams getting one over on the opposition in questionable situations. Think the likes of: ball tampering in cricket, in football Maradona and the ‘hand of god’ goal,  drugs in atheletics/cycling, and some paralympians simulating higher levels of disability. Do we now add another ‘hand of god’  incident - the hand of god  that actually grounded the ball for Mason Cayton Brown?

Does it really feel like winning if one relies on such dubious practices or economy with the the truth? Why aren’t these practises more reviled? Is it because sport is merely a mirror reflecting the general level of morality in society? That cheating is ok as long as you don’t get caught doing it.

 

This is not communism. There is no greater good.

Yes, most professional sport is a mirror that reflects the general level of morality in a capitalist society.

Edited by Sports Prophet

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20 hours ago, Clogiron said:

Do you think that there's any morality in politics, it's them who oversee and create the laws of the land. In sport what about the morality shown in Cricket and RU in condoning tours to and from South Africa during apartheid or the latters attitude to RL over many years. During the Thatcher year's we embraced Pinochet and SA and tried to stop athletes attending the Moscow Olympic's, yet it didn't seem to stop her retaining power unfortunately so what happened to morality then??

 

 

 

3

If there was not any morality in politics you would not have any civil liberties. So you think tours by sporting teams to RSA during the murderous totalitarian racist apartheid is a bad thing,  but trying to prevent athletes from attending Olympics head by and organised by the second most large-sccale murderous totalitarian system in modern history that committed countless racist acts is also a bad thing? Not much of a contradiction there. Just about every sport has a very low moral compass, and I cannot think of one exception to that.

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IMO the simple answer is to make the punishment fit the crime. Drugs and the many other forms of enhancement should warrant a total life ban. The more crafty and subtle forms should be severely dealt with by the officials in charge..

 

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6 hours ago, Rach said:

VAR to my mind  does completely the opposite of that ...for things to be fair you have trained match officials on the field ...end of

Officials in all sports have made mistakes since the first ball was ever kicked, thrown, or hit. Are you saying that the referee that missed Maradona's handball in 1986, wasn't a "trained match official"? In football, people used to say "if only we had professional referees", but now we've got professional referees and they're still making mistakes. They always will, because it's impossible for three humans to see accurately everything that happens in a match. Even with VAR, things won't be perfect. But you've got a much better chance with VAR of being able to prevent things like the Maradona handball.

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3 hours ago, Dave W said:

The thing that gets me about this non-try is why Hewer never went to the video ref to check the grounding/whether there was a foot in touch? 

The ref confers with the video ref in every televised game anyway: Perhaps the powers-that-be should consider having the video ref check the grounding whenever a try is scored as a matter of course?

In the qualifiers there is no video referee hence the in goal touch judge's, one of which was a female stationed at the craft beer end, the one at the other end where MCB ''scored" appeared to be unsighted by the player's in front of him, it looked a little bit dubious in real time but notwithstanding any dissent from either TJ the ref quite rightly gave a try.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Clogiron said:

Isn't it  always the case that a referee may only make one or two mistakes in a game and be roundly crucified by coaches and commentators yet how many mistakes do players make, and how often do commentators criticize them , especially on Sky where everyone's a ' brilliant' player. It's the old boy's network all over. In Australia it's much the same scenario with one notable exception: surprisingly Michael Ennis, as a player I couldn't stand him but as a commentator  apart from learning that less is more (Hello Terry and Barry) he's not afraid to go for the jugular and good for him, long may it continue.

At the start of the video ref being used I was all for it but I think these days due to it being commonplace that certainty has transferred onto the referees themselves and their human side, their frailties largely forgotten; they are just the faulty piece in an ‘absolutes’ machine.  It’s created a false expectation in my opinion, an expectation that a referee doing their job in real time could seldom satisfy.

You’re right, players and coaches make many mistakes but get nowhere near the level of scrutiny the refs do.  Behind closed doors in the analysis perhaps, but not all across the public media.  Imagine a player throwing four forward passes in a half, it would barely get a mention.  If a ref missed only two of those forward passes he’d be on the chopping block.

Don’t use the video ref and they’re not taking advantage of technology if they make a mistake, use the video ref too often they have no bottle and are affecting the flow of the game.  There was a report on the NRL refs last year I think which said that refs on average make 250-300 calls a match all whilst running about 8 kms, generally in the high cardio 160 bpm heartrate range and more than 99% of the time make the correct call.  Anywhere else with those stats you’d be getting medals, instead they get death threats.

Sometimes when the inner Luddite comes out I think it would be better not having reviews at all and just go back to the person in the middle reffing it how they see it.  Doesn’t support the modern need for seemingly endless TV controversy though I suppose.

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I think a player that actually questioned decisions that were in favour of their team would not last long at their club. Indeed questioning the ref at all is misconduct but so is acting in a way that deliberately misleads the ref. Sadly these reactions are coached into players so judging individual players on something that is so ingrained in the game is a little harsh.

A certain amount of gamesmanship is tolerated in the game and can actually be seen as somewhat amusing. When players take it too far than the fans do react negatively, anyone else remember Sam Tomkins getting booed by England fans whilst playing for England?

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On 9/20/2018 at 1:43 PM, 17 stone giant said:

I would say that the introduction of VAR into sports shows that people do want things to be fair. The cheats and rule breakers are going to be increasingly found out, due to this technology. I think that's a good thing.

And before tv ever existed we had cheating, it was just never seen on tv.  We are mainly considering football here aren't we? And simulation is on the increase. In this later case I would gave thought tv replays ought to have spotted  this by the general public year's ago, and pressured referees to act. 

TV ought to be able to spot cheating and sports authorities ought to be alive to it.

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On 9/20/2018 at 8:46 AM, TBone said:

Is professional sport so focussed on winning that morality is overlooked? We’ve had famous examples in other sports of players teams getting one over on the opposition in questionable situations. Think the likes of: ball tampering in cricket, in football Maradona and the ‘hand of god’ goal,  drugs in atheletics/cycling, and some paralympians simulating higher levels of disability. Do we now add another ‘hand of god’  incident - the hand of god  that actually grounded the ball for Mason Cayton Brown?

Does it really feel like winning if one relies on such dubious practices or economy with the the truth? Why aren’t these practises more reviled? Is it because sport is merely a mirror reflecting the general level of morality in society? That cheating is ok as long as you don’t get caught doing it.

 

I agree in principle to most of what you said and the thrust of your argument.Yes it is symptomatic of the moral malaise in society,we just don't suffer rules,crossing t's and dotting i's anymore.It is the eon of "I'm worth it",self indulgence and ENTITLEMENT( notice how I used caps on this one?)?aka anti brexit people throwing Thier  dummies coz they didn't like the result.This is reflected in sport by and large,humility is rare as rocking horse ###### ,diving in the penalty area is so ingrained it's almost become an acceptable platform to discuss.Serena Williams rant in tennis ( who said Nero died in Rome?).Money is morality,you can buy health,Love and power.That has always been in society but it was private ,clandestine now it has become de riguer to flaunt self indulgence and make use of the victim card for personal advancement.

Back to League I dont think League is anywhere near soccer in terms of indicipline and cheating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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