TWP - Argyle talking philosophic approach.

[CanadianRugger]

4 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Correct...the Americans are still doing that very thing south of our border....and they think they know hockey.

I once played in a tournament in Massachusetts.  They didn't like our style of play which was rugged to say the least.

I played for a number of coaches that were body first/puck second type of guys.

[CanadianRugger]

On 10/8/2018 at 5:44 PM, Wakefield Ram said:

Growing a sport in a new country is massively challenging. Remember NFL Europe? Sport has cultural roots, transporting those to other countries rarely succeeds. Football is the exception, but beyond football, can anyone name a successful export it a sport to a new country?

Baseball pretty much everywhere it is played outside the United States.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc.

[damp squib]

3 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Baseball pretty much everywhere it is played outside the United States.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc.

Most of those places required a military occupation to spread the game!

[Wakefield Ram]

Well I look forward to RL taking off in China, but I am not holding my breath.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, damp squib said:

Most of those places required a military occupation to spread the game!

Like the way that Rugby Union required British colonialism to spread the game then!

[17 stone giant]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, scotchy1 said:

Billionaire offering a bright new dawn or bitter man from a poorer part of Leeds offering a managed decline. Its amazing some people choose slow death.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-league-branson-takes-over-the-broncos-1233350.html

"My plan is to convert a lot more Londoners into rugby league fans," - Richard Branson

"We can now go on to the next level, because when it comes to promoting and marketing anything there is no one better." - Martin Offiah

"Barry Maranta, the founder of the Brisbane Broncos.....will be free for what he hinted could be another new franchise in Britain - possibly in Wales or Scotland.

That was in 1997. How did that franchise in Wales or Scotland turn out? Of course, none of the above means that Toronto can't and won't be a success. However, it probably does explain why some people on here are cautious when it comes to ambitious forecasts and hopes for the future of RL.

[Mr Wind Up]

11 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Baseball pretty much everywhere it is played outside the United States.

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc.

Clearly he was talking about expansion in recent history. Outside of Major League Soccer, I can't think of one bonafide, successful league that has sprung up in a country where it's not one of the major sports in the past 70 years.

I've just done some quick research and pro tip: it doesn't exist.

As for your examples, baseball had spread to most of those places way before that, going back to WW2. Japanese professional baseball league was founded in 1950. It's basically as rooted in Japan as cricket is in England at this point. 

Oh, and as for baseball being an established big sport in China, can I get a lol?

[CanadianRugger]

1 hour ago, Mr Wind Up said:

Clearly he was talking about expansion in recent history. Outside of Major League Soccer, I can't think of one bonafide, successful league that has sprung up in a country where it's not one of the major sports in the past 70 years.

I've just done some quick research and pro tip: it doesn't exist.

As for your examples, baseball had spread to most of those places way before that, going back to WW2. Japanese professional baseball league was founded in 1950. It's basically as rooted in Japan as cricket is in England at this point. 

Oh, and as for baseball being an established big sport in China, can I get a lol?

China is decent at Baseball dude, they have their own professional league.  Ran in to some financial problems but is back up and running as of 2014.  They have also done ok at the World Baseball Classic and have appeared in All four WBC Events.  Yah they aren't Japan but they are competitive.  

Rugby League would love the diversity of the WBC that actually mostly uses locals as opposed to Heritage teams, although they do use a couple.  Baseball is probably one of America's most successful sporting exports, they have definitely been more successful at exporting that sport than Cricket has which is in regression in a lot of places.

You want to talk about expansion, look at ice hockey. Half the NHL teams now exist in places that don't traditionally get much or any snow.  The NHL's most recent team is Las Vegas, a true mecca of winter sport LOL.

KHL is also doing well, even Beijing has a pro ice hockey team now in a Major League.  Heck Australia had their first NHLer this past year.  

Rugby League is never going to grow in popularity if money and investments aren't made anywhere outside the M62 or East Coast of Australia.  It is a good sport and should be more popular than it is.  

[The Parksider]

On 10/7/2018 at 6:48 PM, scotchy1 said:

I don't know why you think I would be against playing in Copenhagen. I hope they do.

You need to cut out the childish sniping especially when you and Bob8 are always posting stuff like this, to follow your dreamland where Perth and New York are in Superleague. It really is very simple in the real world there is a lack of investors and players - can you not get this? The bulk of the fans and players live in England and France. Can you not understand this.

Do you not get that opening clubs in all sorts of places needs investors on the scale of Argyle and he is a one off. If there are these big investors in Copenhagen or New York name them? But you can't can you. Then if we do plan for New York.v.Copenhagen then do tell me where the two 30 man professional squads come from.

You two snipe from the comfort of a website in which there is an extraordinary number of dreamers, but it's only about 30 people. In the real world there are over 100K RL fans - go ask them if they think New York.v.Perth is the future? Especially as this garbage means some of their REAL clubs have to make way and face decline?

4 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-league-branson-takes-over-the-broncos-1233350.html

"My plan is to convert a lot more Londoners into rugby league fans," - Richard Branson

"We can now go on to the next level, because when it comes to promoting and marketing anything there is no one better." - Martin Offiah

"Barry Maranta, the founder of the Brisbane Broncos.....will be free for what he hinted could be another new franchise in Britain - possibly in Wales or Scotland.

That was in 1997. How did that franchise in Wales or Scotland turn out? Of course, none of the above means that Toronto can't and won't be a success. However, it probably does explain why some people on here are cautious when it comes to ambitious forecasts and hopes for the future of RL.

They say talk is cheap don't they, and in League express there is a whole page of Argyle talking in riddles but saying nothing of any substance. It really isn't hard to analyse the problem here. Argyle wants to take the stance "It's my money so I must be allowed to spend it where I want".  On here I am berated by Gentleman JohnM whom I have a lot of time for, for not being "positive" and suggesting something that will help the game take off. It's as though discussing the truth is a terrible thing, but going round saying we must open clubs in New York and Copenhagen is a wonderful thing, backslaps all round. You could not make it up but they do. They make it up big time............

Anyway this is what should happen

Argyle says he travels all over, Toronto, London, Sydney etc. Argyle has made an investment in the London Skolars (NO dreamers, he is NOT going to ship them to Philadelphia) The games bosses here should ask him to invest in London RL. That can be the stepping stone to join the M62 and the south of France. Imagine big clubs from Leeds and Wigan, down to London and across to Catalan and Toulouse. The dream of a proper Euro league can become a reality if the man just said OK.....

Hughes was prepared to work with Lenegan in London so why not Argyle. Argyle can pay for improvements to Ealing to maximise crowds, and if it isn't big enough put the ticket price up and make it the hottest sports ticket in town. Argyle can then do what he boasted he would do in the Sunday Mail which was to "Ring the agents of the best 10 players in Rugby League and Rugby Union" and sign as many as possible up. Failing that just find the best 30 players prepared to play in London.

He can also back Skolars to get into the Championship and he can enhance the London RL junior RL set up, and we can look forward to more London Pro-RL players..

London dates back to 1908 when we played tests there, in the 1930's we had THREE professional clubs there, We have played major Internationals and cup finals all down the years there. When RL was at a low ebb the Southern Amateur Rugby League gave a "V" sign to their RU bans and played the game there, Ealing, Hillingdon, Peckham etc. It's a rugby League city. OK there is union but some union clubs folded and others moved out.

London can never be a profitable business for a rich owner but hardly any clubs can. Branson and Maranta had to admit that. But at least it's not dead like RL in North America where the RL world cup is dead, and the MLR is trying to kill off what is left by opening clubs in every venue that has ever being mentioned for League. I say "mentioned" and sadly that is all it takes to get the dreamers on here going like when Lenegan mentioned Perth and off Scotchy went.....

A fantastic European League is available to us if this stubborn man Argyle will just dump Perez and invest instead  in London. That is not a dream, that is a really positive suggestion that can easily work - is that OK for you JohnM????

[Mr Wind Up]

2 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

China is decent at Baseball dude, they have their own professional league.  Ran in to some financial problems but is back up and running as of 2014.  They have also done ok at the World Baseball Classic and have appeared in All four WBC Events.  Yah they aren't Japan but they are competitive.  

Rugby League would love the diversity of the WBC that actually mostly uses locals as opposed to Heritage teams, although they do use a couple.  Baseball is probably one of America's most successful sporting exports, they have definitely been more successful at exporting that sport than Cricket has which is in regression in a lot of places.

You want to talk about expansion, look at ice hockey. Half the NHL teams now exist in places that don't traditionally get much or any snow.  The NHL's most recent team is Las Vegas, a true mecca of winter sport LOL.

KHL is also doing well, even Beijing has a pro ice hockey team now in a Major League.  Heck Australia had their first NHLer this past year.  

Rugby League is never going to grow in popularity if money and investments aren't made anywhere outside the M62 or East Coast of Australia.  It is a good sport and should be more popular than it is.  

China having its own baseball league, and doing ok at the WBC, hardly qualifies as success. Show me the TV right values, the coverage in broader media, the sold out stadiums, the large sponsorship deals, etc. They don't exist, because baseball in China is insignificant. Quite a number of countries on this planet have leagues of all kinds of sports. Having a league doesn't make a league successful. 

KHL is largely Russian and northern European teams, where hockey is very popular already and has been for an awfully long time? Again, this isn't what we're talking about. 

The US having a pro RL league or a pro RU league doesn't make the sport successful there. It is very, very, very hard to build out a new league from scratch without deep roots. Neither RL nor RU have that in the US or Canada. And neither of them have any real ingredients in place other than the product on the field itself to rely on to grow. 

Notice how the NFL's modus operandi is to use its league to expand the sport. Typically, sports use grassroots movements to hope and create national professional leagues down the line. Gridiron has come to the conclusion that its sport will never be taken seriously anywhere on the planet unless it uses its main vehicle (the NFL) to go out there itself. That's the only way for it to expand. 

The kind of investment you're talking about necessary to get what you desire is alot bigger than you seem to think. And even if you threw billions at it, you'd still need time (lots of it) to see any of it come to fruition down the line. 

 

 

 

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

.....That is not a dream, that is a really positive suggestion that can easily work - is that OK for you JohnM????

Its a start.

General question. Are there any rich "investors" in our game who didn't have a background in RL or a love of the game before they became rich? This surely has to be a key point. Its not like soccer where the rewards for investors can be very high, and where betting on games has seen a huge interest thousands of miles from say Manchester, attracting investors with motivations other than the sport.

Personally, I'm happy with Toronto and see no reason why the other SL clubs cant make it work. As for an NA league, i just dont see any league loving rich people that could make such a league work. The games governing bodies dont have anywhere enough money to do it, nor do they have the motivation.

As for berating you? Hardly.

[DoubleD]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

London dates back to 1908 when we played tests there, in the 1930's we had THREE professional clubs there, We have played major Internationals and cup finals all down the years there. When RL was at a low ebb the Southern Amateur Rugby League gave a "V" sign to their RU bans and played the game there, Ealing, Hillingdon, Peckham etc. It's a rugby League city. OK there is union but some union clubs folded and others moved out.

 

I’ve read some nonsense in my time on this forum but this is up there. Claiming London is a rugby league city , well done Parky you’ve excelled yourself here

[Lowdesert]

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You need to cut out the childish sniping especially when you and Bob8 are always posting stuff like this, to follow your dreamland where Perth and New York are in Superleague. It really is very simple in the real world there is a lack of investors and players - can you not get this? The bulk of the fans and players live in England and France. Can you not understand this.

Do you not get that opening clubs in all sorts of places needs investors on the scale of Argyle and he is a one off. If there are these big investors in Copenhagen or New York name them? But you can't can you. Then if we do plan for New York.v.Copenhagen then do tell me where the two 30 man professional squads come from.

You two snipe from the comfort of a website in which there is an extraordinary number of dreamers, but it's only about 30 people. In the real world there are over 100K RL fans - go ask them if they think New York.v.Perth is the future? Especially as this garbage means some of their REAL clubs have to make way and face decline?

They say talk is cheap don't they, and in League express there is a whole page of Argyle talking in riddles but saying nothing of any substance. It really isn't hard to analyse the problem here. Argyle wants to take the stance "It's my money so I must be allowed to spend it where I want".  On here I am berated by Gentleman JohnM whom I have a lot of time for, for not being "positive" and suggesting something that will help the game take off. It's as though discussing the truth is a terrible thing, but going round saying we must open clubs in New York and Copenhagen is a wonderful thing, backslaps all round. You could not make it up but they do. They make it up big time............

Anyway this is what should happen

Argyle says he travels all over, Toronto, London, Sydney etc. Argyle has made an investment in the London Skolars (NO dreamers, he is NOT going to ship them to Philadelphia) The games bosses here should ask him to invest in London RL. That can be the stepping stone to join the M62 and the south of France. Imagine big clubs from Leeds and Wigan, down to London and across to Catalan and Toulouse. The dream of a proper Euro league can become a reality if the man just said OK.....

Hughes was prepared to work with Lenegan in London so why not Argyle. Argyle can pay for improvements to Ealing to maximise crowds, and if it isn't big enough put the ticket price up and make it the hottest sports ticket in town. Argyle can then do what he boasted he would do in the Sunday Mail which was to "Ring the agents of the best 10 players in Rugby League and Rugby Union" and sign as many as possible up. Failing that just find the best 30 players prepared to play in London.

He can also back Skolars to get into the Championship and he can enhance the London RL junior RL set up, and we can look forward to more London Pro-RL players..

London dates back to 1908 when we played tests there, in the 1930's we had THREE professional clubs there, We have played major Internationals and cup finals all down the years there. When RL was at a low ebb the Southern Amateur Rugby League gave a "V" sign to their RU bans and played the game there, Ealing, Hillingdon, Peckham etc. It's a rugby League city. OK there is union but some union clubs folded and others moved out.

London can never be a profitable business for a rich owner but hardly any clubs can. Branson and Maranta had to admit that. But at least it's not dead like RL in North America where the RL world cup is dead, and the MLR is trying to kill off what is left by opening clubs in every venue that has ever being mentioned for League. I say "mentioned" and sadly that is all it takes to get the dreamers on here going like when Lenegan mentioned Perth and off Scotchy went.....

A fantastic European League is available to us if this stubborn man Argyle will just dump Perez and invest instead  in London. That is not a dream, that is a really positive suggestion that can easily work - is that OK for you JohnM????

Great to see your fully behind a European League expansion Parky! I always knew we could rely on you.

But, where does Lenegan fit into all this?

[17 stone giant]

4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Yeah, that was in 1997, nigh on 20 years in SL later (only 4 seasons outside) a challenge cup final, a 2nd place finish and now numerous SL quality players from London and the surrounding area.

Im not sure what I'm supposed to be worried about?

So you think that London from 1997 until 2018 have achieved as much as you would have imagined they would, had you read that article in 1997? Because I don't think that. Had I read that article in 1997, I would be expecting that London RL by now would be an established top 4 super league club, winning lots of trophies and playing in a decent stadium to crowds of 15000. I would be expecting Branson's money and business acumen to transform London Broncos in a similar way to how abramovich made Chelsea football into a top club. If someone suggested to me in 1997 that in 2018 London broncos would be playing in Ealing in front of 800 people and that they would be unsure about whether their rented stadium would be good enough for super league, I'd have laughed and said don't be silly - no way will that happen now that Richard Branson is involved. 

[17 stone giant]

7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

London are the 9th most successful club of the Super League era. They havent gone bust, they have opened up an entirely new player pool.

Of the clubs who have played in SL, 13 have been less successful that London have. 3 of them no longer exist, there are another 16 uk clubs who have never even made it to SL.

Again, Im not sure what im supposed to be worried about?

 

 

I don't see much point in continuing the discussion because I think you're perfectly capable of understanding the point that I'm making, but you're being deliberately obtuse. I was simply pointing out that having a billionaire in charge of a rl club, who makes well intentioned and optimistic forecasts for the future, still doesn't guarantee that any of it will come true. I don't believe that anyone would honestly say that London have lived up to the sorts of expectations that would have been raised as a result of Branson taking ownership of the club - even more so when you consider the sorts of comments made at the time by Branson himself.

I'm not saying you should worry yourself to death over it, but I think the experience of Branson and London should at least be a cautionary note and something to consider when discussing the whole issue of rugby league expansion.