Keith Nutter Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 2:47 PM, chuffer said: oh right.....I read and that and wondered whether he'd tried to give a false surname during his arrest His name at birth was registered as Zak Alexander Hardaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtheborder Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 As a Wigan fan I don't have any doubt that we should stick with him and leave any punishment to the relevant authorities. He doesn't need punishing twice if he receives one. While it's not a clever thing to do, numerous players have made mistakes outside the game (no doubt there are a few that haven't made the public domain as well). Best thing we can do as a club is support the guy as long as he needs to be supported, whether he makes 0, 7 or 77 more mistakes while at the club. And just to add this isn't just because he's a world class player, i think any player should be afforded this approach whether first team or academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenilworth Tiger Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, overtheborder said: And just to add this isn't just because he's a world class player, i think any player should be afforded this approach whether first team or academy. Genuine question.... Why do you thin the support Wigan can offer him will work and that of Cas and Leeds didn't and at what point do you decide that somebody is beyond help? Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in. I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Wiganer Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 30 minutes ago, Kenilworth Tiger said: Genuine question.... Why do you thin the support Wigan can offer him will work and that of Cas and Leeds didn't and at what point do you decide that somebody is beyond help? Heaven helps those who help themselves. Unless and until he realises he has to change anything and everything is a complete waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 10:39 AM, del capo said: Maybe he needs both Wigan will be helping him out in ways other clubs can't/ won't. He remains a prodigious talent. The level of that Leeds Mags fine tells me he doesn't in fact take up a marquee slot. Whatever the social media stuff , it's his first conviction. Give him a break ( albeit his last one ). Wigan actually have a good record for this sort of thing.... Two words you have typed 'prodigious talent' sums up this sorry and tawdry affair. A few years ago I read Andrew Johns updated biography - he had added a chapter based on his arrest for drug possession. It was then that Johns admitted that he had had a drug problem for 12 years. Also because of his bipolar he suffered highs and lows when he would get drunk and pass out in the corner of pubs. But he was a 'prodigious talent' so landlords, close friends, supporters, Knights officials all turned a blind eye because he was toi valuable to them as a player. So all of them were cynically willing to let him sink into a personal hell for the sake of winning more games than what they would lose. If someone would have had the balls to tell him when he was a young bloke that he should take a break from the game, get professional help and continue with that support for the rest of his life then the Knights may not have won a Premiership but Johns would have had a more balanced and better quality of life. p.s. I am not making a comparison of the offences that Johns and Hardaker have done. I am just pointing out that someone with a 'prodigious talent' is treated differently, and sometimes to their detriment, to the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 And who is to say that Wigan aren't providing him with ' professional help' of the highest quality? Did Cas and Leeds do that for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, del capo said: And who is to say that Wigan aren't providing him with ' professional help' of the highest quality? Did Cas and Leeds do that for him? Well whatever help they have given him thus far has not worked has it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 32 minutes ago, del capo said: And who is to say that Wigan aren't providing him with ' professional help' of the highest quality? Did Cas and Leeds do that for him? Yes, of course they did. These clubs both paid transfer fees for him and certainly didn't want to lose a star player unnecessarily. I actually felt Leeds were much too accommodating after the third or fourth incident. You can't continue to have a player dragging the club's name through the mud despite being given endless support and help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Ted Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The only way being a Wigan player might help is that he will be living in or near the town and away from his home and "friends". A different environment away from the Cas/Wakey/Ponte area might help him see there are other ways to live your life away from work. Won't be easy for him but if Wigan do stick with him then life will be different and may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 1:09 AM, del capo said: Wigan will be helping him out in ways other clubs can't/ won't. How exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said: Heaven helps those who help themselves. Unless and until he realises he has to change anything and everything is a complete waste of time. Absolutely this, he has had plenty of "2nd chances" and yet even before he pulled a Wigan shirt on he has threw it back in their faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 No doubt once the Grand Final dust has settled Wigan will be addressing Hardacre's position. I imagine a statement will then be forthcoming..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Wiganer Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 From a selfish Wigan perspective, we cannot afford to get into the same position as Cas, whereby his own self destructive behaviour leaves us without a key player at a vital time in the season. Only the experts much closer to this can assess that risk. He and we would need advice from experts in addiction/alcoholism. We almost need our own 12 step plan. His agent suggested he needs to stay off the grog during the season. From the very little I know, it doesn’t work like that for some people - there is no such thing as stopping after 1. Unlike Andrew Johns, he clearly can’t function as a player while he is taking and drinking the wrong stuff, so the risk is much higher. I do not mind if we pass on being the next club at risk that he will not stop, but if we do I hope that we have taken the right advice and that we act on a zero tolerance basis. It seems ironic to me that we had a presentation by Tony Adams about addict sportsmen getting help. God forbid he went to that and went straight to his pub/dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, del capo said: And who is to say that Wigan aren't providing him with ' professional help' of the highest quality? Did Cas and Leeds do that for him? Apologies if I was not clear in my post. As I stated in the final paragraph I was not comparing what may or may not have been done for Hardaker - as I have no idea and neither do you - or the total lack of support for Johns. What I was trying to show is:- a. that some clubs will deliberately turn a blind eye to unsocial behaviour by 'Prodigious talent' because those clubs do not want to either suspend a player/have a player taking a break in the season to sort problems out. B. When a clubs ambition overtakes the long term mental health of a player then something is drastically wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtheborder Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Kenilworth Tiger said: Genuine question.... Why do you thin the support Wigan can offer him will work and that of Cas and Leeds didn't and at what point do you decide that somebody is beyond help? I'm not saying it will and i'm far from an expert in criminal rehabilitation so i don't know what techniques, methods etc. are used (no doubt Leeds and Cas also employed a few of these as well). For me, a person is never beyond help, people can turn around when people least expect them to, all we can do is hope and help (where possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 In a day and age where mental health is increasingly taken with more seriousness, Wigan will not sack him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Skipper Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 hours ago, overtheborder said: support the guy as long as he needs to be supported Make sure you stock up on support material to get you through a couple of winters. 3 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: Give him a break ( albeit his last one ) Where do you draw the line though? It's human nature to take the easiest option in life, therefore the more you let people get away with something the less they'll learn from it. Somehow I don't see Hardaker suddenly having a moment of clarity and thinking 'Phew, if I hadn't been given a 17th chance in life I'd be doing something naughty now'. Maybe a custodial sentence for endangering public lives could have been the kick up the ass he needed, rather than a hug and a big pay packet? I'd certainly feel safer if serial offenders were forced to endure a bit of hardship - just my opinion of course. Will a 20-month driving ban ensure he doesn't do something like this again? Knowing he was way over the limit and not insured didn't seem to stop him last time so where's the incentive to make him do so next time? A longer ban? “There is perhaps no better a demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.” Carl Sagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Skipper Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: In a day and age where mental health is increasingly taken with more seriousness, Wigan will not sack him. I agree but how far are we going to go with the mental health thing? Anyone who commits crime has a mental health problem really don't they? Do we keep letting it go, or incentivise them to change their ways? I'm not saying I've got all the answers but doing nothing doesn't really seem to have helped so far. “There is perhaps no better a demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.” Carl Sagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said: I agree but how far are we going to go with the mental health thing? Anyone who commits crime has a mental health problem really don't they? Do we keep letting it go, or incentivise them to change their ways? I'm not saying I've got all the answers but doing nothing doesn't really seem to have helped so far. I think that employers, in this case, Rugby League teams, can only offer so much help. Ultimately, it’s up to the individual to decide whether they are going to accept such help and are willing to change. Hardaker’s agent seems to believe alcohol plays a big part in Hardaker’s downfalls and has suggested that he gives it up. That’s only a suggestion and Hardaker can only give it up if he’s willing to. Employers will do their utmost to offer help until a point in which they believe they’ve done their best by the employee and/or their position because untenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: In a day and age where mental health is increasingly taken with more seriousness, Wigan will not sack him. Hardaker , like that other 'Zac' ( Richard Gere ) in the film, has probably has ' GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO. I got no where else to g.....I got nothing else .' If mental health is in play here then Wigan of all clubs I am sure will be as supportive as they can be and take a long and hard look before finalizing their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 56 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said: In a day and age where mental health is increasingly taken with more seriousness, Wigan will not sack him. Geez I’m struggling to understand this mental health, politically correct, it’s not his fault, give him a break suggestion! Why does he deserve the mental health get out of jail sympathy card some people seem to be offering him?! What is it that he has done that suggests it is down to a mental health issue? This makes a mockery of those suffering seriously with a chronically debilitating disorder. Those that feel overwhelmed with life and that it consumes them. At what point do we say he is making bad decisions whilst he is stone cold sober and of his own volition whilst perfectly compus mentis? This latest incident involved driving a car, without an MOT and without insurance. Did he make this mistake because he was drunk and he was drunk because he was suffering with depression or a disorder? He was caught whilst drunk, but what about when he drove to the shops for a pint of milk the day before? If he had the money to purchase recreational drugs or 6 pints and some gin, he had enough money to get his car MOT’d and insured. Whilst at Leeds and prior to the event that some claim is the cause of his troubles and the apparent reason he goes out on these benders he homophobically abused the referee, beat up a member of the public and ohh yeah, went on a bender with some England players whilst under curfew. His behaviour or form is deep rooted and stems from a much earlier time than this event. I am sorry to say that some people simply do not care about the consequences of their actions and they do not conform to what society deems is the right and proper behaviour. These people, they do what they want when they want because they can and they do not care. Zak is clearly one of them. Whilst I want no harm to come to the kid, please let’s stop pretending it’s something it’s not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Skipper Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, del capo said: Hardaker , like that other 'Zac' ( Richard Gere ) in the film, has probably has ' GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO. I got no where else to g.....I got nothing else .' Funny, but I wonder if shipping Hardaker off to the military under a tough drill sergeant might actually do some good. And I'll bet if he spent even just a day under fire on the real front line he'd have a whole new outlook on life. I don't wish to see him in uniform carrying Morgan Escare off to the tune of Joe Cocker's 'Up where we belong', though At the very least a bit of aid work in somewhere like The Yemen might make him realise how lucky he is. “There is perhaps no better a demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.” Carl Sagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Clothesoff Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 23 minutes ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said: Geez I’m struggling to understand this mental health, politically correct, it’s not his fault, give him a break suggestion! Why does he deserve the mental health get out of jail sympathy card some people seem to be offering him?! What is it that he has done that suggests it is down to a mental health issue? This makes a mockery of those suffering seriously with a chronically debilitating disorder. Those that feel overwhelmed with life and that it consumes them. At what point do we say he is making bad decisions whilst he is stone cold sober and of his own volition whilst perfectly compus mentis? This latest incident involved driving a car, without an MOT and without insurance. Did he make this mistake because he was drunk and he was drunk because he was suffering with depression or a disorder? He was caught whilst drunk, but what about when he drove to the shops for a pint of milk the day before? If he had the money to purchase recreational drugs or 6 pints and some gin, he had enough money to get his car MOT’d and insured. Whilst at Leeds and prior to the event that some claim is the cause of his troubles and the apparent reason he goes out on these benders he homophobically abused the referee, beat up a member of the public and ohh yeah, went on a bender with some England players whilst under curfew. His behaviour or form is deep rooted and stems from a much earlier time than this event. I am sorry to say that some people simply do not care about the consequences of their actions and they do not conform to what society deems is the right and proper behaviour. These people, they do what they want when they want because they can and they do not care. Zak is clearly one of them. Whilst I want no harm to come to the kid, please let’s stop pretending it’s something it’s not. I raised my issue with the “mental health” line that gets peddled out when a player steps out of line on a thread a while ago and I get that it’s an easy excuse but there’s little way to tell either way whether someone is genuinely suffering from mental health or they’re using it as an excuse after being caught doing something wrong. However in this day and age, I cannot see Wigan sacking Hardaker. It could look like an irresponsible employer, which in turn causes no end of headaches for the employer if they’re seen to have been made aware of an employee’s issue and have been seen not only to not deal with it but to also use it as a reason to sack them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Father Ted said: A different environment away from the Cas/Wakey/Ponte area might help him see there are other ways to live your life away from work. Leeds did this by having him move to near Headingley (admittedly not a quiet, distraction-less area). However at least he was a drive away from his regular haunts after that... Oh heck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Skipper Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Father Ted said: A different environment away from the Cas/Wakey/Ponte area might help him see there are other ways to live your life away from work. ... hate to be the one to tell you this Ted, but Wigan isn't all that different to the Cas/Wakey/Pontefract area... You're just swapping liquorice cakes for mint balls... and I'm not sure either of those two are the type of confectionary that is troubling Mr H. “There is perhaps no better a demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.” Carl Sagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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