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14 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I thought it was illegal to pay people different rates for the same job based on gender. Is this not the case?

Yes.

I assume you're talking about the Glasgow strike. That's about whether manual jobs dominated by men (e.g. warehouse work, binmen) should be the same rates as thos edominated by women (cleaning, canteen work). I think. Very complex comparison in my opinion. 

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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3 minutes ago, tim2 said:

Yes.

I assume you're talking about the Glasgow strike. That's about whether manual jobs dominated by men (e.g. warehouse work, binmen) should be the same rates as thos edominated by women (cleaning, canteen work). I think. Very complex comparison in my opinion. 

That was what has got me confused yes. So are women binmen not getting the same rate as male bin men? (For example)

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3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

That was what has got me confused yes. So are women binmen not getting the same rate as male bin men? (For example)

Yes they are.

Essentially this dispute is based on the notion that there should be a standard rate of pay across all of the manual jobs. Its been twisted into a gender equality issue but it isn't really. That some jobs are more male dominated and some are more female dominated is just a fact of life. The women are arguing that they are paid less because they are female, but it isn't as black and white as that. Regardless of gender should a refuse collector be paid the same as a cleaner ? Should a street sweeper be paid the same as a carer ? Those are the real issues, not "some women are paid less than some men".

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

That was what has got me confused yes. So are women binmen not getting the same rate as male bin men? (For example)

I think they are paid the same if they do the same job. The problem seems to lie in the recruitment, where women tend not to be selected for the better-paid jobs. This means that there are many more binmen (relatively well-paid) than binwomen, while women predominate in the relatively poorly-paid jobs, such as care home assistant. The thinking seems to be that there is gender-based discrimination at the job selection stage.

Obviously, imo.

I see that Derwent posted a much better reply while I was typing mine.

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Why not do across society what we do at work?

everyone gets paid the same hourly rate whether they sweep the warehouse floor or prepare the management accounts.

we employ over 250 people and turn over 60 million plus a year 

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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42 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Yes they are.

Essentially this dispute is based on the notion that there should be a standard rate of pay across all of the manual jobs. Its been twisted into a gender equality issue but it isn't really. That some jobs are more male dominated and some are more female dominated is just a fact of life. The women are arguing that they are paid less because they are female, but it isn't as black and white as that. Regardless of gender should a refuse collector be paid the same as a cleaner ? Should a street sweeper be paid the same as a carer ? Those are the real issues, not "some women are paid less than some men".

Yes is the answer

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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From memory, I think the legislation states something along the lines of "the same pay for the same 'type' of work" and the question then becomes: e.g. do binmen and cleaners do the same type of work?

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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9 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

From memory, I think the legislation states something along the lines of "the same pay for the same 'type' of work" and the question then becomes: e.g. do binmen and cleaners do the same type of work?

The council decided that they did.  At that point they should be paid the same.  

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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The council has already lost 2 court cases (in 2017), which found that the council was in the wrong.  

The strikes are about the settlement which has yet to be made.  

With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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1 hour ago, Phil said:

Why not do across society what we do at work?

everyone gets paid the same hourly rate whether they sweep the warehouse floor or prepare the management accounts.

we employ over 250 people and turn over 60 million plus a year 

Can't agree with this Phil. Why shouldn't somebody with more intelligence who (for instance) thinks of a system of work that results in trebling production, earn more than a guy sweeping up? Absolutely no disrespect to that sweeper upper, it's a very useful role but at the end of the day, drive and ability should be rewarded IMO.

NB, I aren't talking about the bosses son getting a top job but people who really have worked their way up.

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2 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

I think they are paid the same if they do the same job. The problem seems to lie in the recruitment, where women tend not to be selected for the better-paid jobs. This means that there are many more binmen (relatively well-paid) than binwomen, while women predominate in the relatively poorly-paid jobs, such as care home assistant. The thinking seems to be that there is gender-based discrimination at the job selection stage.

Obviously, imo.

I see that Derwent posted a much better reply while I was typing mine.

But what are they going to do? Force women to take jobs like bin men? (Not being flippant there, just that traditionally most  women prefer certain roles to others.)

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

But what are they going to do? Force women to take jobs like bin men? (Not being flippant there, just that traditionally most  women prefer certain roles to others.)

I don't think anyone is suggesting 'force', but I do think that, if they apply for a bin job, they will be treated the same as any men who apply. It's why society is trying to break down gender stereotyping.

Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

Can't agree with this Phil. Why shouldn't somebody with more intelligence who (for instance) thinks of a system of work that results in trebling production, earn more than a guy sweeping up? Absolutely no disrespect to that sweeper upper, it's a very useful role but at the end of the day, drive and ability should be rewarded IMO.

NB, I aren't talking about the bosses son getting a top job but people who really have worked their way up.

I agree with this. If everyone was paid the same then why would people put themselves through a degree and other vocational training for qualifications and skills, and rack up the associated debts, if they could earn the same in an unskilled or semi-skilled job. You'd end up with a completely unskilled workforce within a couple of decades - I mean, who in their right mind would submit themselves to 6 or 7 years study and training to be a doctor under those circumstances ?

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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36 minutes ago, Derwent said:

I agree with this. If everyone was paid the same then why would people put themselves through a degree and other vocational training for qualifications and skills, and rack up the associated debts, if they could earn the same in an unskilled or semi-skilled job. You'd end up with a completely unskilled workforce within a couple of decades - I mean, who in their right mind would submit themselves to 6 or 7 years study and training to be a doctor under those circumstances ?

So do doctors train to be doctors because they know there’s a massive pay day in it or because they wish to contribute to society to the best of their skills and abilities?

Why have we grown year on year, never made anyone redundant and are massively over subscribed whenever we advertise our vacancies? 

 

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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36 minutes ago, Phil said:

So do doctors train to be doctors because they know there’s a massive pay day in it or because they wish to contribute to society to the best of their skills and abilities?

Why have we grown year on year, never made anyone redundant and are massively over subscribed whenever we advertise our vacancies? 

 

Because you overpay your cleaners. :biggrin:

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56 minutes ago, Phil said:

So do doctors train to be doctors because they know there’s a massive pay day in it or because they wish to contribute to society to the best of their skills and abilities?

 

 

I'd say its a bit of both. Yes they wish to do something for the benefit of society but also they like to earn a good living while doing it. There's nothing wrong with that, they're not mutually exclusive.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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1 hour ago, Phil said:

Why have we grown year on year, never made anyone redundant and are massively over subscribed whenever we advertise our vacancies

 

Your situation is far from usual; that's not a criticism, just an observation. I'd like to think it could work more widely because, from what you've told us on here, it seems a very interesting way of doing things.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Back to the original post. I think the crux of the matter is why are the roles traditionally regarded as "women's jobs" in the council virtually unanimously lower paid than similar "men's jobs"?

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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53 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Back to the original post. I think the crux of the matter is why are the roles traditionally regarded as "women's jobs" in the council virtually unanimously lower paid than similar "men's jobs"?

Because they are 'menial jobs'? Not because they are specifically women?

It's pretty much irrelevant now anyway what was traditional job for a specific sex as the pay rates are the same for the job.

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if any bird apart from the feathered variety wants to spend a full winter on roof construction walking across steel beams without a harness with me and get my money come forward- if not  then put up or shut up- birds cant do proper blokes jobs - simple

did the bloke who invented the phrase "one hit wonder" invent anything else?

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5 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

if any bird apart from the feathered variety wants to spend a full winter on roof construction walking across steel beams without a harness with me and get my money come forward- if not  then put up or shut up- birds cant do proper blokes jobs - simple

I wouldn’t want to do that job. Does that make me a bird, or not a proper bloke?

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