RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 13 hours ago, scotchy1 said: We have this wierd situation, and Leigh are a good example of it, where we insist that clubs with no money pay players more than they can afford to play in a division not enough people watch whilst arguing clubs with only slightly more money should be forced to compete with the for these players so they can pay them to play in a reserves comp no one will watch. We are a game with teams getting beat by world record scores, clubs not being able to put out full squads, a week before pre-season the standard bearer for the 2nd tier only having 2 contracted players and we see people not only fight against the obvious solution of feeder teams but want to exacerbate the issue by demanding SL clubs start a reserves squad. who insists this? Surely clubs pay players what they can afford and only what they can afford and actually that is insisted upon by the accountants and HMRC otherwise they go into administration. If the club Choses to do anything else for whatever reason that may be (perceived pressure from fans, a feeling that that is the way to get promoted and get money or whatever) then that is their look out and the consequences are theirs and theirs alone.. There is no one insisting they do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigan Riversider Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Re the first sentance what is Wigan Warriors situation at the DW, I saw Dave Whelan on the TV the other night and he was saying he did not want any member of his family taking over, he started to mention new owners and particularly the Football side, but I had to leave at that point and did not see the rest, basically my question is are the Warriors guarenteed to pkay at the Stadium and if so is it time scaled? I believe guaranteed until 2025 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelic Cynic Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 I think the mention of feeder teams is fake news as Ian Lenagan wants League 1 sides removed,and the much used dual registration will probably be redundant with not enough Championship clubs for Elite League clubs,once Toronto and Toulouse are promoted;as they appear to be self-funding. It does appear that the MPG removal hasn't done much good for one of the players rumoured to be at loggerheads with Leigh. Kevin Larroyer seems to be one of the unluckiest players around - https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/rugby-league-news/ex-hull-kr-player-kevin-109382 https://www.theversed.com/74449/rugby-leagues-million-pound-game-needs-scrapping/#.AmGmO2O8sa On the subject of fake news,I did read that less NRL players would be playing in our competition yet there does seem to be as many players,and head coaches,over here now,as there has been before - despite the disparity in salaries,salary cap,and lack of contracts being honoured. No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 5 hours ago, The Parksider said: They make money because they sell goods and services that are not niche, and they sell them in volume and make profit.. Rugby League clubs are a pastime for them not a business. RL is a highly limited market with high running costs. These gentlemen want something to play with outside their work like you and me, so they play with sports clubs, knowing it will cost them £Millions. Over at the RFL there is Ralph and his skeleton staff, they aren't much of a business as again the market is limited and they can't make much money either. But lets not stop people having sky high expectations of them, and wondering why they can't take the game into orbit......RL as a business is swamped by soccer and squeezed hard by Union and even the NRL who steal the best staff. You dragged this hair brained scheme up several years ago and it was silly then and is silly now. It works like this. The Leeds RL foundation work in the schools and junior clubs to encourage participation and to support the people running the game at these schools and clubs. The best kids at Hunslet Parkside, Warriors, Oulton Raiders and Stanningley etc feed into the academy system at Leeds and some go on to play for Great Britain or England Knights like Liam Sutcliffe That is the feeder system that works, and clubs like Hunslet, Workington and Keighley have nothing to do with it. They feed off the Superleague system. Jimmy Watson didn't make first grade like Liam so he plays part time at Hunslet. The part time clubs like Dewsbury, York and Leigh are proud clubs. I saw Dewsbury win the Championship, I saw York play Wigan in a challenge cup semi final, I saw Leigh win the cup and the Championship. Do you think for one minute if they were turned into a "feeder club" any of the directors would put a penny more in, or the fans would turn out to watch Superleague "A" teams?? Why get dragged along by Scotchy's utter nonsense, think again, understand how the real feeder system works, and forget this garbage that would end up with championship clubs closing down, and grounds being sold off - if it ever happened, but of course it would not. It's silly season on here, roll on the new season. Whilst still in shock from receiving a like from 'Parky' I then get the wet lettuce leaf to the face! Whilst using selected lines from my post to make up a 'quote' you dismiss it as me using someone else's ideas, Wrong I've never read any such item on here, my feeder club's development of players concerns the players that have already signed for the club schools and youth development is another issue. Once proud club's, and I can go back a lot further than Dewsburys championship to Swinton, Hunslet, Oldham & Wakefield's team's of the early sixties, can't survive on just that like the Workington Town of the fifties those days and circumstances, along with most of the spectators of that era no longer exists. Saying people wouldn't accept being a feeder club means no club at all, and the harsh reality is there is far too few to make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 56 minutes ago, Clogiron said: Saying people wouldn't accept being a feeder club means no club Hi Clogiron, albeit I didn't answer directly to your good self on your thoughts and seemingly aspirations to nudge Championship clubs into the direction of becoming 'feeder' clubs aligned directly to SL clubs, I did answer through Mr Parksiders response to you, please look back a few posts. I can well understand your good intentions, but I think that there are many inherant and ingrained attitudes some which I highlighted in my post that I think would prevent it succeeding in numbers sufficient to make it a viable route to being a succesful excersize, there are more than one faction in any club that has to buy into their club losing it's unique personal identity, I can only voice the opinion of being a supporter and I stated my intention should it happen to my club, but I cannot imagine those who invest in and sponser their club's would be interested in working for and on behalf of other entities, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 4 hours ago, scotchy1 said: The game insists this through its rules and structure. Clubs, like all businesses, will have certain scales at where they can operate and certain scales at which they can't. Too often in this game we look at bust clubs or struggle financially as doing so because they spend too much. Often its because they bring too little in. There is only so much cloth to cut before you are creating false economies. Clubs wage bills are relatively very very low, cutting it further often doesnt simply cut costs but sees clubs be less competitive, it sees less prize money, less sponsorship, less fans, less corporate and clubs spiral. Cutting the clubs player salary is often a contributor to clubs financial problems as much as it is a solution to it. People assume that there is simply a balance to find between income and expenditure, but often there isnt one to be found because the inter-dependencies between them. Cutting your cloth accordingly often just leaves you with a crappy piece of cloth nobody wants to buy. Where the game can save is efficiencies. A feeder system is a more efficient use of resources. No one insists on it... it is purely the decision made by the incumbent owners to keep muddling along until hopefully something changes.. spend enough that the rest comes.. whatever the reasoning is the owners are deciding this.. there is no one insisting that they overspend.. The only way that would be the case is if there was a "minimum salary cap" and that was set above many clubs income thresh holds. While i dont disagree with your analogies and the issues.. the point is no one insists on it.. it is a decision from the chairman plain and simply. I'll lay the blame at SL or the RFL for many things but clubs overspending is 100% not their fault.. it is the clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: Hi Clogiron, albeit I didn't answer directly to your good self on your thoughts and seemingly aspirations to nudge Championship clubs into the direction of becoming 'feeder' clubs aligned directly to SL clubs, I did answer through Mr Parksiders response to you, please look back a few posts. I can well understand your good intentions, but I think that there are many inherant and ingrained attitudes some which I highlighted in my post that I think would prevent it succeeding in numbers sufficient to make it a viable route to being a succesful excersize, there are more than one faction in any club that has to buy into their club losing it's unique personal identity, I can only voice the opinion of being a supporter and I stated my intention should it happen to my club, but I cannot imagine those who invest in and sponser their club's would be interested in working for and on behalf of other entities, what do you think? I recognize that Harry, as I said in my earlier post being a feeder club to your hated local rival's would be unacceptable to some supporters & officals at clubs but unfortunately you can't say to many because the problem is these clubs don't have many people who ARE interested in them. The days of thousands walking to the local ground to watch the local team are as much of the past as sadly the manufacturing industries, mills, coal mines,engineering are to these towns and thousands of people walking to work in them. As a feeder club as outlined a better standard of players may be fielded longer term than the ridiculous duel registration farce or the proverbial 'star' player returning from injury all playing to a known system. The club may under these circumstances enjoy greater success than before which may attract new fans not carrying emotional baggage of past failings. There's a lot of ifs, buts, and maybes amongst that I acknowledge but thing's change always and just carrying on as we are isn't the answer. I've been watching Rugby League for 57 of my 60+years and preferred the game we used to play with proper scrums and a bit of biff in it played by players who did hard, physical jobs and didn't need to be gym bunnys to be fit, where to win something you had to overcome not just the opposition but the elements over a sustained period and 40+ games a season. Those days are gone never to return so before the entire game goes down the shi**er its got to change radically, or it will just be Leeds, Wigan, StHellens, Warrington,Hull playing each other endlessly or, and I wouldn't be suprised if a big enough carrot was dangled playing in the RU thereby solving their problem of a lack of a northern footprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 29 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: In leigh's case there was an insistence that the 500k was spent on players but thats by the by. The point I am making is that if the structures and inherent biases of the game leave you with two options, spend less on wages and go bust or spend more on wages and possibly win enough games to not go bust then the game is inisting you spend more than you can afford. Whether you spend big on wages and go bust or spend next to nothing on wages and go bust you have still spent more than you can afford on wages. ok so we're coming at this from 2 fundamentally different angles.. Mainly because there are more options than those 2 and there is no-one, inherently or not, that is insisting that you spend money, it is a choice you are making. even with the 2 choices you are giving the choices are the same for businesses (and there are more than 2) deficit finance or organic growth... you make a choice and one is far riskier in the short term than the second. No one single person forces you to do that and there are plenty of options in between. But life is about risk taking or not.. it is also about making your own choices and living with it. The game is no different in that regard and any owner who wants to hide behind the above is a fool. They have made a choice, it has not worked out.. thems the breaks as it is with everyone in every walk of life. Yes if you go bust you tend to have spent more than you can afford on wages (though not always the case as there are other costs) but the game is not forcing you to do that it is your choice. In the end you are the one who puts your hand up for that league every year, so you are making the choice to try and be competitive, even if there is no way your club can do it. That is still your choice through pig headedness, nostalgia or whatever it might be you are not forced to do it. on the 500k he was not forced to accept it.. he was not forced to sign people to longer contracts and so on and so forth.. it was a choice. But i can see from your post above that there is no way we will see eye to eye on this so i'll leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: Organic growth isnt always an option. Take Leeds Rhinos as an example. They will have certain fixed cost. It will cost them X amount to open Headingley. Now they can operate at a profit with 15k attendances and £1.8m from Sky. They could probably afford to spend more on wages than they do. Leeds spend about £8m per year on things that arent player or coach wages. See them in to the championship, see them lose 8k fans, half their sponsorship, and get £0 in Sky money. Cut their player and coaching budget to nothing and they go bust, for Leeds to survive in that position their only option is to spend more than they have on player wages because they would have nothing to spend on player wages. However much Leeds spend on player wages they have a mortgage to service, they have a stadium to maintain, they have costs opening the stadium. In fact the vast majority of Leeds running costs arent player wages. So Leeds have to be playing at a certain level. The structures of the game and its inherent biases mean that Leeds have to spend money on wages so that the team performs to a certain level, so that they stay in SL, so that fans come to watch them, so that companies sponsor them. They either spend on wages or they create a much bigger risk of going bust. There isnt an option for 'organic growth' in all situations. And thats not an extreme example. The extreme examples are the clubs in the lower league where the revenue from attendance and sponsorship are so low that if they don't spend more than they can afford on players, they don't get a squad on the field. Your view assumes that there is a balance somewhere that clubs can reach between the amount they spend on player wages and their revenue that sees them being sustainable. Im saying that balance isnt always there. Spending less on wages creates a huge risk of bringing in less revenue. It creates a false economy whereby your revenue falls by a greater amount than you cut those wages by, because you cut those wages. You havent created a saving there, but a loss. In Leigh's case, with their fixed costs and the deal they have regarding their stadium, it is perfectly feasible that on last years revenues, even spending £200k on wages would have seen them making a loss. Its perfectly feasible that attendances and sponsorship and as such revenues were higher last season than they would have been had Leigh cut their wage bill drastically and by a greater amount than they could have cut their wage bill. Scale matters. no actually it does not assume anything of the sort.. in those cases the club ceases to exist because it is not a viable entity.. hence as I said "In the end you are the one who puts your hand up for that league every year, so you are making the choice to try and be competitive, even if there is no way your club can do it." you do not have to keep spending money.. that is a fools decision... If it is not viable it is not viable you do not keep throwing good money after bad.. Anything beyond that is your decision to make.. with all the facts and all the risks in front of you.. the decision is always there to just stop. I own our 150 year old family business with my brother.. the hardest thing i can think of doing is not walking away from the business and shutting the gate but going home and telling my wife and 2 kids that we have lost our home because I didn't walk away from the business and shut the gates fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: But it isnt true that their arent a viable entity. It means they arent a viable entity at that level. Therefor to survive they need to get out of that level. Therefore they need to spend money they don't have on player wages. It may very well be that Leigh could spend £1.8m on wages in SL and make a profit. It could be that however little they spend in the Championship on wages they go bust. It could be that if they put out a squad which competes in the championship they bring in 2k more fans and a million more in sponsorship than if they don't It may very well have been that had Leigh finished 4th they would have made a profit or at least a sustainable loss, but even if they spend nothing on wages they would go bust if they didnt. Yes at some stage someone needs to make a decision but if the structures and inherent biases of the game create a situation where your decision is, cut wages and go bust, spend more and maybe go bust, or just give in and shut the gates, then really the game is insisting you spend more. and there we are back at where we started.. it is not doing anything of the sort it is giving you your options and you must chose one.. and you have not included cut wages and keep going which is an option also you dont have to go bust just because you cut wages.. but you may need to do other things too. The game does not insist on anything.. it just gives you the options to make your decisions.. As I said a few posts ago.. we wont agree so that is me done on this subject. you have decided that people are being forced to do things (in one way or another) I say they are given options and it is their choice to react to those options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: In that scenario it is giving you three option, 2 certainly killing the club, 1 maybe killing the club. If those are your options then there really is only one option. Its a bit of a false choice really. You argument is a bit like saying if a mugger holds a knife to your throat and says give me your wallet or I kill you, its still your choice to hand over your wallet. Also that isnt an option. Of course there are scenarios where clubs are simply spending too much on wages. But if you are in a scenario where your problem isnt spending too much on wages, then cutting wages wont help at all and can exacerbate your problems, in that situation cutting wages and being sustainable isnt an option. rubbish and stupid analogy.. not every option kills the club or possibly kills the club there are options without spending more than you earn to actually make a club work! but as I say we wont agree and this is a circle now... as per usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolton Leyther Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, RP London said: and there we are back at where we started.. it is not doing anything of the sort it is giving you your options and you must chose one.. and you have not included cut wages and keep going which is an option also you dont have to go bust just because you cut wages.. but you may need to do other things too. The game does not insist on anything.. it just gives you the options to make your decisions.. As I said a few posts ago.. we wont agree so that is me done on this subject. you have decided that people are being forced to do things (in one way or another) I say they are given options and it is their choice to react to those options. Insist is the wrong word but prior to the recent changes to the league pyramid's structure, the Championship's format practically necessitated spending big money for any club to have a realistic shot at promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx RL Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 22 hours ago, POR said: according to the beeb Leigh Centurions' future as a professional club remains at risk while a dispute continues with two contracted players, says owner Derek Beaumont. Currently, the club has no players, no coach and is under special measures. The special measures, set by the Rugby Football League, mean Beaumont is unable to sign players, and the uncertainty around the club's future makes it impossible for him to appoint a head coach. Only ending the financial dispute with the players, who have so far rejected the settlement offer to end their contracts, would allow the sanctions to be lifted. Beaumont needs to call on his old mate Judge Rinder to get it sorted - Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANO Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 On 11/6/2018 at 11:56 AM, paulwalker71 said: I saw a list on their RLFans forum that named five players not already known to have joined other clubs - one of whom was assumed to be staying in Australia (Drew Hutchinson) Wow sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANO Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Lowdesert said: LRL says:- “Last man standing at Leigh The future remains unclear at Leigh Centurions, with only two players still at the club and under contract. They are Rhys Evans, who signed a three-year deal ahead of 2018, and Kevin Larroyer, who suffered when Hull KR were relegated in the Million Pound Game two years ago. Derek Beaumont has recently returned from holiday and continues to seek to offload the club. It is hoped Micky Higham will play a significant part in the club’s rebuilding as it moves part-time.” 2 players still under contract! Not quite sure if this is sad or good business. Wow sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 59 minutes ago, Bolton Leyther said: Insist is the wrong word but prior to the recent changes to the league pyramid's structure, the Championship's format practically necessitated spending big money for any club to have a realistic shot at promotion. If you decide to spend to get promotion I understand that... what I don’t understand is not realising that it doesn’t guarantee promotion and so not having things in place to stop the type of things happening here... (long contracts etc).. to blame that on anything other than arrogance and recklessness seems daft to me and certainly isn’t the fault of anyone other than those issuing the contracts. My opinion obviously... said the same thing with the iodiotic antics of Sheffield eagles a couple of years ago too.. and flagged up the worry when they started spending without seeing the cheque. History repeats itself over and over again becauase no one learns lessons.. not for any other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Clogiron said: As I said earlier the only way some of the Championship/Div 1 club's will survive is as proper feeder club's to SL sides, the advantages to SL club's is probably a higher level of competition for players and that the players are coached in the same systems/style of play so that when they step up to the first team they should slot in better. For that reason the aim of the feeder club's shouldn't be on winning the division or gaining promotion, which should be prohibited but on developing player's, match fitness etc. There would of course be stand alone club's who would be the one's looking to finish top but if you stick to a rounded fixture list, without stupid 'loop' game's it would be a fair contest. However, who would partner who is where the problems arise, would the Cumbrian club's logistically be able to partner up? Bulls & Cougar's Rhino's & Hunslet seem on the outside sensible or would Heatherington have to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. All told it would produce around 28 team's probably the correct amount that the game should be aiming for, I'll leave you to decide/suggest who should be the one's to be cut, I imagine partly by natural wastage by the time this happens, but come it surely will and the sooner the better for the future of the game. Well as this thread is about Leigh , and youve already suggested Mr lenegan ' running us ' as his reserves , do you want to explain how this would be Leigh surviving ? We wouldnt be ' Leigh ' , we'd be wigan reserves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 48 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Well as this thread is about Leigh , and youve already suggested Mr lenegan ' running us ' as his reserves , do you want to explain how this would be Leigh surviving ? We wouldnt be ' Leigh ' , we'd be wigan reserves You would be a Championship Rugby League team playing under the name of Leigh acting as a feeder club to Wigan staffed by in the main coaches and players from Wigan. It seems doubtful if you will have a long term future under any other scenario given past and recent events. Brutal I know but like many others 'Leigh' have had more administrations than trophies over the past 40 years so something isn't working is it. I will now retreat to my nuclear bunker located in xxxxxxxxx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Clogiron said: You would be a Championship Rugby League team playing under the name of Leigh acting as a feeder club to Wigan staffed by in the main coaches and players from Wigan. It seems doubtful if you will have a long term future under any other scenario given past and recent events. Brutal I know but like many others 'Leigh' have had more administrations than trophies over the past 40 years so something isn't working is it. I will now retreat to my nuclear bunker located in xxxxxxxxx. Seem to remember Leigh being league champions in the last forty years that is something we wire fans have not seen, and with mainly two amateur clubs under their area I think they have punched above their weight for years, some bigger clubs have fallen further than Leigh recently and in the past, they will survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogiron Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 minute ago, ELBOWSEYE said: Seem to remember Leigh being league champions in the last forty years that is something we wire fans have not seen, and with mainly two amateur clubs under their area I think they have punched above their weight for years, some bigger clubs have fallen further than Leigh recently and in the past, they will survive. Yes, 81/82 if I remember correctly and a Challenge cup in 71 was it, but thats before many who the game should de targeting as a audience were born and it doesn't act as money in the bank unfortunately for the Hunslets, Swintons, Oldham's, Huddersfields Barrows, Workingtons and,as they have found recently and in the mid sixties,Bradford's of this game at present. It's only value is to headline writers at their next administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 4 hours ago, DEANO said: Wow Which definition of Wow are you using? Some need a bit of an explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Clogiron said: You would be a Championship Rugby League team playing under the name of Leigh acting as a feeder club to Wigan staffed by in the main coaches and players from Wigan. It seems doubtful if you will have a long term future under any other scenario given past and recent events. Brutal I know but like many others 'Leigh' have had more administrations than trophies over the past 40 years so something isn't working is it. I will now retreat to my nuclear bunker located in xxxxxxxxx. Could wigan afford to ' run ' leigh as their feeder/reserves ? , you say playing under the name of Leigh , so at the LSV I presume ? , attendances of 3/4 hundred wont pay the rent Your last sentance gives away your realisation that it wouldnt work , if it happened I'd just spend more time at the DW Watching wigan athletic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Each day that passes , our situation continues to get worse , but eventually things will get sorted and we'll hopefully regain our historical position of mid to upper 2 nd tier , it might take a while though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 6 hours ago, scotchy1 said: In that scenario it is giving you three option, 2 certainly killing the club, 1 maybe killing the club. If those are your options then there really is only one option. Its a bit of a false choice really. You argument is a bit like saying if a mugger holds a knife to your throat and says give me your wallet or I kill you, its still your choice to hand over your wallet. Also that isnt an option. Of course there are scenarios where clubs are simply spending too much on wages. But if you are in a scenario where your problem isnt spending too much on wages, then cutting wages wont help at all and can exacerbate your problems, in that situation cutting wages and being sustainable isnt an option. But that isn't the situation Leigh were in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger06 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Upon reading this thread thoroughly I can surmise that some people are desperate to kill the entire game outside of Super League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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