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Johnoco

Suicide/Mental Issues

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11 hours ago, Saintslass said:

First of all I am sorry to read the experiences in the OP.  I remember as a girl of 14 trying hard to support my then best friend as she and her family tried to contend with her brother committing suicide following a family row.  I had no idea how to handle the person with whom I had enjoyed endless giggles and fun times breaking down in terrible racking tears in the middle of a lesson or the shocking guilt that drove the family apart.  All I could do was follow her lead, even when it took me to the funeral home, standing beside an open coffin as she said goodbye to her brother.

I must confess to being torn over the recent development encouraging people to talk about their mental health challenges.  Like everyone else on the planet, I have experienced periods of mental ill-health, but I do wonder whether we risk neglecting the building of resilience in our understandable quest to address the legacy of the 'stiff upper lip' and overall neglect of mental health conditions and mental ill health generally.

For example, in a post above someone mentioned City workers who in their 50s find themselves in crisis because their work is ending and they 'have nothing else'.  Is the solution to encourage those people to talk about their mental state or to address their work/life balance before they reach their 50s?  Obviously catastrophe and/or extreme stress can occur at any time, out of the blue or over a sustained period, and those events or periods are exceptional and so even with well honed resilience people can be knocked off their feet.  But I just wonder whether the conversation needs to broaden a bit to include resilience, to include how we live our lives before events occur (some of which, like loss of job, are quite usual rather than exceptional), in order to avoid reaching the point where we find ourselves (understandably) contemplating calling the Samaritans.

I'm not sure I've articulated my thoughts very well but I will say that I'm not talking about specific mental illnesses here such as bi polar disorder or chronic depression but rather the mental ill health we can all encounter as a result of painful events or enduring life experiences which put an otherwise mentally healthy person under real strain.  Based on the few years I spent working at a mental health unit I would say dealing with specific mental illnesses are a different matter IMO.

A beautiful annd thoughtful post.  Thank you.

Taboo's are typically about diagnoses for ailments that we cannot cure.  Mental illness is ugly.  There is more understanding for depression and stress.  The attitude to paranoid schizophrenia is as bad as ever.

51 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think the phrase 'toxic masculinity' is fine but I think if all boys (and men) hear are negatives about men, maleness, masculinity and the wonders of drawing willies in textbooks, then we have a problem. In fact, it's quite clear that a lot of boys and men do only hear the negatives - perhaps because we rarely talk about men as separate from society unless we're doing so to be highlight a negative.

An issue there is because 'man' has been the default and because 'men' have been at the top of the tree (and I'll add the obvious 'not all men' - just because all the people with power were men it does not mean that all men had power) that celebrating men in the same way you might celebrate the achievements of women is a problematic or awkward thing to do. And it can - as with lobster fetishist Jordan Peterson - often be linked with the kind of status quo desire that leads to many of the problems we've had in this thread. I don't think we're even close to solving that.

I actually think the negativity about men is, in my limited experience, a bigger thing in Britain than most places.  I will repeat my thing about the dangers of arguments being imported inappropriately.

In Belgium, I would hear the women grumble about how they were expected to go to work and then come home and do all the cooking and cleaning.  That is like Britain, but in Beligium and France it was actually true.  We all have our stories in life, in the UK the man takes the role of being the baddie.

Understandably, there is a branch of feminism that sees men as bad and women as good.  And, they will have backgrounds and experience that make that reasonable (if not correct).  My impression is that is gets an excessive hearing in Britain.  I would happily call myself a feminist in Denmark, but not in the UK.  Relationship counselling in Denmark leads to British men raving about how good it is.

I think there is an issue with some men having a terrible image of being men, not wanting to accept the role as baddie.  They end up being the men with only female friends and contributing to dross like this.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/caitlin-moran-twitter-downsides-of-being-a-man/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

I would suggest that for most men, understanding is going to come mainly from other men.  This is not intended to say anything is lacking in women at all, merely that it will be easier for men to relate.  Certainly, when I have needed help, it has come primarily from men from rugby.

To be a bore on stats, I suspect the least sympathetic group as a whole as middle aged men.  While suicide is a leading cause for death in men under thirty, this is in part because grown men under thirty rarely die.  That suicide is higher in the forties is striking as by that point, they have managed to not kill themselves for a reasonably long period of time.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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13 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

My dad used to one of those who thought that depression was a myth and that all people needed to do was toughen up. That was until he retired young and suffered from depression. I'll always remember him sat there having lost the use of his legs to motor neurone disease saying he'd rather not be able to use his legs than suffer from depression. 

I'm going to make the rather predictable claim that it is an incredibly complex issue. I actually agree with Saintslass that there can be downsides to some of the discussions around mental health that don't involve proper diagnoses like bipolar etc.

I've always been what you would call a worrier and I see it painfully replicated in my 5 year old son. I don't look forward to social situations and will get wound up about parking when it's busy or making a phone call. However, some of the most rewarding and life-building experiences I've had are where I've done something despite my nervousness and worry. I wouldn't be the person I am had I not done many of these. I do wonder if I was 20 years younger whether I'd be told I had a form of anxiety and given the option to back out of things much more easily. For instance, I have a close family member and friend who seem not to do anything anymore that makes them feel remotely uncomfortable citing anxiety as the reason. IMO I don't think it is helping them. I see it a lot with children in schools too. 

On a totally separate point, I've just finished reading a book that indicates we are heading for a serious crisis with the new IGeneration especially amongst girls. Even compared to millennials, mental health issues and suicidal thoughts are way up. Social media seems to be the most likely culprit but there are other likely factors such as an overprotective parenting culture.

I personally think that it is rather unpredictable that we agree with Saintslass as much as we do!

I recall a homeless club I would volunteer at.  We were actually incredibly strict.  The logic was to get out of homelessness, they are going to have to be far tougher than the normal person. 

There is a danger that a diagnosis for anxiety can lead to a person being written off.  This can, I think, make it worse.  It is like being given bed-rest as a treatment for obesity. 


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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10 hours ago, Bob8 said:

There is a danger that a diagnosis for anxiety can lead to a person being written off.  This can, I think, make it worse.  It is like being given bed-rest as a treatment for obesity. 

I have to say, sick leave in my case would probably make things worse, being left to fester at home would be very counter productive.

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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35 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

I have to say, sick leave in my case would probably make things worse, being left to fester at home would be very counter productive.

I think coherence is the psychological term.  Meaning having a place and role for your life within a wider context.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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On 11/2/2018 at 11:02 AM, RidingPie said:

I'm still scared about ever getting in that state again. If it does happen again I will recognise it and seek help earlier. The strange bit is that somehow I didn't realise what was happening, and I hope that I can recognise that earlier next time.

I know this is slightly different but maybe worth mentioning.  I had postnatal depression quite badly after my firstborn undiagnosed until ten months later when my husband called an out of hours doc who came to the house one night when I reached a crisis point.  I did start to suffer similarly after births of second and third children but importantly I did recognise the symptoms very quickly and sought help so hopefully that does happen with other types of mental health problems.

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That dawning realisation that politicians are worse than the Mafia

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7 hours ago, heartofGold said:

I know this is slightly different but maybe worth mentioning.  I had postnatal depression quite badly after my firstborn undiagnosed until ten months later when my husband called an out of hours doc who came to the house one night when I reached a crisis point.  I did start to suffer similarly after births of second and third children but importantly I did recognise the symptoms very quickly and sought help so hopefully that does happen with other types of mental health problems.

Thanks for saying that, it genuinely is something that concerns me. 

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Its great awareness is being raised and more and more people are finding ways and means to talk and seek help.

I do however wonder how many, mainly men have killed themselves over being in debt for what are relatively small sums of money, perhaps hundreds that have escalated into thousands thanks to the trap of pay day loans.  Which is fine to talk about and that may help some, but others simply need to break the cycle of being trapped into escalating debt and I'm not sure simply talking would do enough to help that.

I've seen through work plenty of occasions of the devastation left behind, the pressure and guilt on women with young children whose partners have committed suicide must be immense, verging on unbearable.

I can't find the article now, but I did see one of the broadsheets rumour last weekend there might be something in the budget to help break this cycle of high interest debt, but didn't see anything reported in the small print post budget so presume it didn't make it in. 

Can't help but think for a relatively small amount of money would go a long way to helping fix this issue, not only saving lives but also the knock on costs of rehousing those left behind were they can't afford to keep a house going and associated problems of single parent families etc.

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3 hours ago, shrek said:

Its great awareness is being raised and more and more people are finding ways and means to talk and seek help.

I do however wonder how many, mainly men have killed themselves over being in debt for what are relatively small sums of money, perhaps hundreds that have escalated into thousands thanks to the trap of pay day loans.  Which is fine to talk about and that may help some, but others simply need to break the cycle of being trapped into escalating debt and I'm not sure simply talking would do enough to help that.

I've seen through work plenty of occasions of the devastation left behind, the pressure and guilt on women with young children whose partners have committed suicide must be immense, verging on unbearable.

I can't find the article now, but I did see one of the broadsheets rumour last weekend there might be something in the budget to help break this cycle of high interest debt, but didn't see anything reported in the small print post budget so presume it didn't make it in. 

Can't help but think for a relatively small amount of money would go a long way to helping fix this issue, not only saving lives but also the knock on costs of rehousing those left behind were they can't afford to keep a house going and associated problems of single parent families etc.

There are ways out of debt, they're just not that obvious to get and rely on the goodwill of creditors.

Time to post this one then I think!  An uncomfortable subject for me to post but one that's important as it may help other people look up and see there is a way out.  (Post drafting note: now I've finished typing this, I realise this has been cathartic, didn't realise how much I needed to do this)

Literally yesterday (coincidentally strange timing, isn't it...) I received my completion certificate for my Individual Voluntary Arrangement (IVA), one year and one month early showing that I fully paid back the entire debt plus statutory interest.

Anyone who says you can't go bankrupt in the UK because of healthcare debt is sadly mistaken, an increasing number of folk do.  As many of you will know, especially those who know me outside of here, my wife has been very ill for a number of years now and has had a number of mental health emergencies resulting in her needing inpatient treatment.  The NHS simply hasn't the capacity to take even a fraction of those in need and routinely turn away critically ill people who need inpatient help.  Despite being admitted to A&E and the A&E consultants declaring her in dire trouble, the NHS mental health Trust said "sorry, can't help".  First time round, we were lucky, we had her company health insurance and that paid for her stay in the Priory in London to get her over the very worst of her illness and our savings to pay for a few extra weeks.

Then insurers do as insurers do and a year later declared it a "chronic condition" therefore uninsurable for even outpatient treatment.  That meant that her weekly private appointments (still no NHS available and they'd have only offered six appointments anyway even if she did "qualify") were all ours to pay. 

A few years later she needed to go back into hospital as an inpatient and the insurers refused to pay for her treatment.  Anyone who thinks insurance is a credible way to do healthcare coverage is a ridiculously naive fool. There was a real choice, risk her staying at home despite really angry GPs (angry at the NHS mental health lot for refusing to help, again) and her psychiatrist saying she was at genuine risk of death, or pay for it myself.  18 weeks she was in second time.

Two stays in the hospital at crippling costs per night ranging from £500p/d for "normal" care to £1200p/d for 1:1 care on her really bad days, each stay over three months long.  Then when she was discharged from hospital, back at home NHS mental health services discharged her from care on the spot as they had to concentrate their severely limited resources on the true have-nots who were in even worse financial state than us and simply couldn't afford any private care.  That meant a continuing bill of over £1000 a month in healthcare costs.  I'm not angry at the clinicians who had to make those tough choices by saying "no" to us, I'm angry at the system that makes it an essential thing for them to do.

Obviously, we didn't have the money to pay for that despite me earning fairly well so it was a choice between running up debts or her not getting the care she needed.  By early 2013, we were way, way over our heads and were paying over £2000 per month on debt interest, never mind even thinking of repaying any capital and it was getting worse.  I then unexpectedly lost the contract I was on and I didn't have an immediate new start, that meant I couldn't pay bills outside of our mortgage, power and council tax.  We were way over £50k in debt, excluding our mortgage, and it was escalating.

My ego and stubbornness meant that I would not look up at other options and I hoped it'd all sort itself out.  One day we got seven "penalty" letters in one day for missing bills or going over our overdraft limit and my phone went off eight times from people wanting money.  I was severely deteriorating mentally myself at this point over this stress alone, I felt in a box and simply couldn't see a way out, I was never suicidal but I felt utterly overwhelmed on a daily basis. My wife finally gave me a mental push that I needed and forced me to talk to CCCS, now StepChange

We went through all my options with them and decided to get an Individual Voluntary Arrangement; they couldn't recommend any provider at the time as they had to stay independent but we went through PayPlan because it is fully funded by donations from the major credit houses in the UK and has direct links to them.  Other people explained that that meant that creditors were far more likely to listen to PayPlan if they said something was an accurate picture.

They helped in a way I felt was unbelievably helpful at the time.  They worked through our personal and financial picture, created a proposal then got it approved for us, all without asking us for a penny of fees.  In 2013, the creditors accepted a 13p in the £1 minimum repayment, I think they felt sorry for my wife's ongoing healthcare issues.  Essentially, if I'd only paid back according to the proposal the creditors would have only got just over £6500 from the £50,000 debt.  The terms were 5 years plus an equity release further year because we are homeowners who couldn't get a remortgage to pay the debt off.  Because the repayment percentage was so low I was amazed that the creditors approved it at the creditor meeting, even HMRC abstained on voting for our IVAs when normally they routinely vote against them.

Within a couple of days of telling our creditors we were in talks with PayPlan over an IVA, every single debt letter stopped beyond a couple of "commitment letters" from the creditors that said they'd stop all debt recovery action on the condition we kept working with PayPlan.  The calls from the bank and others stopped immediately.  It went from a torrent of noise and a frankly overwhelming stress to an immediate relief and absence of pressure.  The IVA was approved and we went from over £2000 a month in interest alone to an initial £150 in IVA payments.  We went from a cumulative £12,000 overdraft to a basic bank account that had a positive bank balance and only our normal non-debt outgoings each month.  We actually had a bit of breathing space for the first time in far too long.

As IVAs work on your current income, if you start to earn more you pay back more.  We've had just under five years of bloody hard work and paying back at the fastest we could.  Last month I paid off the last remaining residual amount in the accounts (one IVA for each of us) made up of 100% of the debt, 8% annual statutory interest and IVA/creditor fees.  The creditors took a leap of faith in us by signing off a ridiculously low payback and we've repaid it by paying back everything, and more.

We now have no debt beyond our mortgage.  Even then, we have enough equity in that that it's not really a debt unless the market crashes by more than 50%.  We have no credit cards, loans or any other financial debts to anyone.  I legally, ethically and morally owe nothing to anyone (mortgage excepted) and it's bloody good to be able to say that.

The lessons I've learned:

- Creditors WILL listen to you as long as you're serious about acknowledging your debt.
- There ARE excellent charities out there who can help.  StepChange are there for you.
- There are conmen out there running debt schemes that do nothing for you or the creditors beyond lining their own pockets.  If you're being asked to pay up front for getting into these schemes then walk away.
- If you stick your head in the sand hoping things will sort themselves out then you're probably just annoying your creditors who will assume bad faith.  On the other side, if you talk to them honestly then they'll often go out of their way to help.
- PayPlan have done nothing but help, at the start of the IVA process it was likely they'd get almost nothing in fees from us and there was nothing in it for them to help but they did.  They make up any losses from the large creditors who bankroll them, that's a very fair scheme in anyone's eyes.
- There are thwaites out there who will negatively judge you if you say you need debt help.  Each and every one of them needs a punt to the privates.  Ignore them.

Lsst night the champagne (well, prosecco) was open to celebrate us being officially out of debt.  Our money is ours now and not a single person has a call on it.

Drowning in debt?  There are ways to get it fixed, it will make a massive difference to your quality of life.  You just have to be brave and talk about it.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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16 minutes ago, ckn said:

There are ways out of debt, they're just not that obvious to get and rely on the goodwill of creditors.

Time to post this one then I think!  An uncomfortable subject for me to post but one that's important as it may help other people look up and see there is a way out.  (Post drafting note: now I've finished typing this, I realise this has been cathartic, didn't realise how much I needed to do this)

Literally yesterday (coincidentally strange timing, isn't it...) I received my completion certificate for my Individual Voluntary Arrangement (IVA), one year and one month early showing that I fully paid back the entire debt plus statutory interest.

Anyone who says you can't go bankrupt in the UK because of healthcare debt is sadly mistaken, an increasing number of folk do.  As many of you will know, especially those who know me outside of here, my wife has been very ill for a number of years now and has had a number of mental health emergencies resulting in her needing inpatient treatment.  The NHS simply hasn't the capacity to take even a fraction of those in need and routinely turn away critically ill people who need inpatient help.  Despite being admitted to A&E and the A&E consultants declaring her in dire trouble, the NHS mental health Trust said "sorry, can't help".  First time round, we were lucky, we had her company health insurance and that paid for her stay in the Priory in London to get her over the very worst of her illness and our savings to pay for a few extra weeks.

Then insurers do as insurers do and a year later declared it a "chronic condition" therefore uninsurable for even outpatient treatment.  That meant that her weekly private appointments (still no NHS available and they'd have only offered six appointments anyway even if she did "qualify") were all ours to pay. 

A few years later she needed to go back into hospital as an inpatient and the insurers refused to pay for her treatment.  Anyone who thinks insurance is a credible way to do healthcare coverage is a ridiculously naive fool. There was a real choice, risk her staying at home despite really angry GPs (angry at the NHS mental health lot for refusing to help, again) and her psychiatrist saying she was at genuine risk of death, or pay for it myself.  18 weeks she was in second time.

Two stays in the hospital at crippling costs per night ranging from £500p/d for "normal" care to £1200p/d for 1:1 care on her really bad days, each stay over three months long.  Then when she was discharged from hospital, back at home NHS mental health services discharged her from care on the spot as they had to concentrate their severely limited resources on the true have-nots who were in even worse financial state than us and simply couldn't afford any private care.  That meant a continuing bill of over £1000 a month in healthcare costs.  I'm not angry at the clinicians who had to make those tough choices by saying "no" to us, I'm angry at the system that makes it an essential thing for them to do.

Obviously, we didn't have the money to pay for that despite me earning fairly well so it was a choice between running up debts or her not getting the care she needed.  By early 2013, we were way, way over our heads and were paying over £2000 per month on debt interest, never mind even thinking of repaying any capital and it was getting worse.  I then unexpectedly lost the contract I was on and I didn't have an immediate new start, that meant I couldn't pay bills outside of our mortgage, power and council tax.  We were way over £50k in debt, excluding our mortgage, and it was escalating.

My ego and stubbornness meant that I would not look up at other options and I hoped it'd all sort itself out.  One day we got seven "penalty" letters in one day for missing bills or going over our overdraft limit and my phone went off eight times from people wanting money.  I was severely deteriorating mentally myself at this point over this stress alone, I felt in a box and simply couldn't see a way out, I was never suicidal but I felt utterly overwhelmed on a daily basis. My wife finally gave me a mental push that I needed and forced me to talk to CCCS, now StepChange

We went through all my options with them and decided to get an Individual Voluntary Arrangement; they couldn't recommend any provider at the time as they had to stay independent but we went through PayPlan because it is fully funded by donations from the major credit houses in the UK and has direct links to them.  Other people explained that that meant that creditors were far more likely to listen to PayPlan if they said something was an accurate picture.

They helped in a way I felt was unbelievably helpful at the time.  They worked through our personal and financial picture, created a proposal then got it approved for us, all without asking us for a penny of fees.  In 2013, the creditors accepted a 13p in the £1 minimum repayment, I think they felt sorry for my wife's ongoing healthcare issues.  Essentially, if I'd only paid back according to the proposal the creditors would have only got just over £6500 from the £50,000 debt.  The terms were 5 years plus an equity release further year because we are homeowners who couldn't get a remortgage to pay the debt off.  Because the repayment percentage was so low I was amazed that the creditors approved it at the creditor meeting, even HMRC abstained on voting for our IVAs when normally they routinely vote against them.

Within a couple of days of telling our creditors we were in talks with PayPlan over an IVA, every single debt letter stopped beyond a couple of "commitment letters" from the creditors that said they'd stop all debt recovery action on the condition we kept working with PayPlan.  The calls from the bank and others stopped immediately.  It went from a torrent of noise and a frankly overwhelming stress to an immediate relief and absence of pressure.  The IVA was approved and we went from over £2000 a month in interest alone to an initial £150 in IVA payments.  We went from a cumulative £12,000 overdraft to a basic bank account that had a positive bank balance and only our normal non-debt outgoings each month.  We actually had a bit of breathing space for the first time in far too long.

As IVAs work on your current income, if you start to earn more you pay back more.  We've had just under five years of bloody hard work and paying back at the fastest we could.  Last month I paid off the last remaining residual amount in the accounts (one IVA for each of us) made up of 100% of the debt, 8% annual statutory interest and IVA/creditor fees.  The creditors took a leap of faith in us by signing off a ridiculously low payback and we've repaid it by paying back everything, and more.

We now have no debt beyond our mortgage.  Even then, we have enough equity in that that it's not really a debt unless the market crashes by more than 50%.  We have no credit cards, loans or any other financial debts to anyone.  I legally, ethically and morally owe nothing to anyone (mortgage excepted) and it's bloody good to be able to say that.

The lessons I've learned:

- Creditors WILL listen to you as long as you're serious about acknowledging your debt.
- There ARE excellent charities out there who can help.  StepChange are there for you.
- There are conmen out there running debt schemes that do nothing for you or the creditors beyond lining their own pockets.  If you're being asked to pay up front for getting into these schemes then walk away.
- If you stick your head in the sand hoping things will sort themselves out then you're probably just annoying your creditors who will assume bad faith.  On the other side, if you talk to them honestly then they'll often go out of their way to help.
- PayPlan have done nothing but help, at the start of the IVA process it was likely they'd get almost nothing in fees from us and there was nothing in it for them to help but they did.  They make up any losses from the large creditors who bankroll them, that's a very fair scheme in anyone's eyes.
- There are thwaites out there who will negatively judge you if you say you need debt help.  Each and every one of them needs a punt to the privates.  Ignore them.

Lsst night the champagne (well, prosecco) was open to celebrate us being officially out of debt.  Our money is ours now and not a single person has a call on it.

Drowning in debt?  There are ways to get it fixed, it will make a massive difference to your quality of life.  You just have to be brave and talk about it.

Its great you found a way out, I hope your savored that celebratory drink!

The point I was making, perhaps badly, is that there are many who don't, its fine to promote the talking element, but clearly this is not working for all.  Its a sad world were anyone takes there live and leaves behind loved ones for what started out as a few hundred quid debt in the form of a pay day loan and then escalated.

Its a predatory business I'd gladly see go to the wall. 

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8 minutes ago, shrek said:

Its great you found a way out, I hope your savored that celebratory drink!

The point I was making, perhaps badly, is that there are many who don't, its fine to promote the talking element, but clearly this is not working for all.  Its a sad world were anyone takes there live and leaves behind loved ones for what started out as a few hundred quid debt in the form of a pay day loan and then escalated.

Its a predatory business I'd gladly see go to the wall. 

I completely get your point and that's why I decided to suck it up and post to hopefully give anyone reading a glimpse into the less than obvious you can get out of debt.  Apparently, the only IVAs that get routinely refused are where the debtor is refusing to acknowledge their part in the debt and would clearly run up even more debt at the first chance they got.

On your predatory business bit, the "good"/premium creditors, like the ones I was in debt to such as Barclays, Natwest and so on, are far more likely to help customers and push them towards debt charities and ways out than the debt companies that service the "distressed" credit end of the market like payday lenders.  The predatory ones just keep rolling things over and demanding more and more money with little care for the human cost.

I can remember when I was younger, if I ever saw an APR over 20% I thought it was clearly for those who had less than premium credit history and the extremes of 40% was for those who had an abysmal credit history.  I saw an advert yesterday for an American Express Gold card with a 57% APR and the Gold card is meant for those a step up from their basic card.  The market is fundamentally morally bankrupt and it really does need a brave government to regulate it into line.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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On 11/2/2018 at 9:32 AM, Johnoco said:

Just heard last night that a lad I used to work with until recently had taken his own life. He was a right good lad, always having a joke at work and a bit of banter. He had a young family too. I wasn't that close to him but had a good few nights out with him and genuinely liked the guy.
 

Feel a bit sick about it, so god knows how his Mrs is gonna cope.

I had thought we were making progress with things like Andy's Man Club etc and more general openness. But in fact, are we? Are some men so unable to reach out and ask others for help??

 

I think speaking personally, the initial conversation feels easier to me than the subsequent ones. I have told numerous people about my depression, including most of my close friends, my entire rugby team, some work colleagues, my girlfriend. However, bringing it up over and over is harder because there is nothing different to talk about, it is just there, worse than normal with no particular reason and no way to fix it. As much good work as things like Andy's Man Club and State of Mind do, to me contacting them almost feels futile because there probably isn't much they can say to help. 

With that said, I think I have found productive coping strategies. With coaching 5 days a week, yoga a few days a week, gym a few days a week, mindfulness, meditation, a vitamin D supplement and only working 4 days a week over the Winter, it would be easier to name the things I haven't tried! 

A fresher who joined the rugby league club at Uni when I was Captain took his own life a few years back. I had only known him for a week or two and it still had a profound effect on me, I can only imagine the pain the people closer to him suffered. This year I'm hoping we will have a State of Mind session with the two universities I coach at and Outlaws just to reduce the chance of something similar ever happening again. 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:01 PM, Gerrumonside ref said:

I have found support in the workplace through other colleagues by volunteering myself as a mental health champion with the support of mental health charities like Mind and Time to Change https://www.time-to-change.org.uk/

Through this, myself and like minded people who I work with, have been able to reshape our relations with management, HR and colleagues by doing lunchtime presentations on mental health, our experiences and the help we can offer others as mental health champions.

For myself this has been a positive and carthartic way of making sense of my own personal mental health experiences, while at the same time helping others speak up and speak out on something that affects 1 in 4 people at some point in time.

 

 

My employer run the same scheme and I considered going for the role of mental health champion. Unfortunately, even though my employer are trying to be better on mental health, my concern was that if time commitments aren't considered with regards to project work then the scheme would actually be detrimental to my own mental health! 

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Great thread. My mate killed himself in high school and a few days later other kids were throwing small nooses at his sister for a laugh. It was truly appalling and hopefully these things no longer occur.

I was off work for a few years due to PTSD resulting from experiences with Indonesian military, police and intelligence services. It was absolutely debilitating. I was living in poverty and had no idea where to find help.

One day I called a nearby university’s psychology outreach section in absolute desperation and they offered me free treatment if I agreed to be part of a study. I agreed and I had to participate in all sorts of treatments that were successful enough to get be back into work and I also finished my degree.

It still impacts on my life in frustrating ways but I’ve found a nice steady comfortable job that pays well. When I change roles I always consider the team and team culture before I move. Good people, rather than more $, is the key issue for me.

I just try to keep a dependable, steady life and stay in control of my own destiny as much as I can.

If you’re ever at rock bottom all you have to do is ask for help at the right places and people will help. They’ll help in a way that is dignified, respectful and private.

A couple of years ago on Xmas day I failed trying to save a drowning person’s life and that hit hard as it was a young person in the prime of their life. It still hurts but skills I learnt from my previous experiences have helped me a lot. While I was walking away from the body ( the police had arrived and were with the body) a woman walked up to me and said something along the lines of “you did everything you could possibly do”... I’m so glad she was there and said that.

Edited by Copa
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Sympathetic to the OP and others, but personally - and I'll probably be pilloried for this - there's a bit of overkill on mental health/suicide/oktonotbeok at the moment. 

Not at all downplaying the importance of good mental health, it just seems to be everywhere at the moment. 

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5 minutes ago, costa said:

Sympathetic to the OP and others, but personally - and I'll probably be pilloried for this - there's a bit of overkill on mental health/suicide/oktonotbeok at the moment. 

Not at all downplaying the importance of good mental health, it just seems to be everywhere at the moment. 

The extent to which I agree (which is very limited) is severe mental illness is still taboo. A paranoid schizophrenic still gains nothing from this talk. Personally, I hope it is a start and that that will come. 

Edited by Bob8
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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, costa said:

Sympathetic to the OP and others, but personally - and I'll probably be pilloried for this - there's a bit of overkill on mental health/suicide/oktonotbeok at the moment. 

Not at all downplaying the importance of good mental health, it just seems to be everywhere at the moment. 

But if your mental health is fine, then you don't need these services or to talk with anyone. Happy days.

But if it's not...the fact that you aren't some sort of freak and there are people who can help you is something that should be made as widely known as possible.

And even if you're fine today, who knows what the future holds?

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Small talk saves lives 

 


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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3 hours ago, costa said:

Sympathetic to the OP and others, but personally - and I'll probably be pilloried for this - there's a bit of overkill on mental health/suicide/oktonotbeok at the moment. 

Not at all downplaying the importance of good mental health, it just seems to be everywhere at the moment. 

I don't really get this point. 

It's a bit like complaining there are too many hospitals because you are fine.

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I tried to kill myself four times during my teens and early twenties because of the sexual abuse I was subjected to at school.

My life was like a dark tunnel and because I loathed myself I couldn’t see that anyone could love me or would miss me.

Luckily I received fantastic psychiatric help and came to terms with my situation.

Little bit of politics, that help is now much harder to obtain for all the usual reasons under this government.

if you break your leg you might have to wait on a trolley for a few hours but you’ll get fixed up, have a mental illness and it’s months before you’ll be seen, some people don’t make it through those months 

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"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Too shy, and or, ashamed to ask for help.

Hooked on Benzo's

In 2012 Tried facing my fears, getting off the Benzo's, did OK, then DWP decided it was my turn to be probed. Knocked me for six.

Overdosed in 2013

2017: Dad died, he was our rock. Grief which still exists.

2018: Mother now confined to bed. More worry about her future.

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53 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

Too shy, and or, ashamed to ask for help.

Mate, we're all posting on an internet forum about rugby league to complete strangers. If that isn't a cry for help then I don't know what is.

These guys are available 24/7 should that not be quite enough.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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think a lot of people don't see the difference between feeling depressed and being miserable, lots of people enjoy being miserable, moaning and having an alternative narrative, they see it as their right not to join in with happy smiley people and wallow in rubbing up against false ideals , feeling depressed is very very different to just being a grump or misery and much more serious


the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but the crows are just as black

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5 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

think a lot of people don't see the difference between feeling depressed and being miserable, lots of people enjoy being miserable, moaning and having an alternative narrative, they see it as their right not to join in with happy smiley people and wallow in rubbing up against false ideals , feeling depressed is very very different to just being a grump or misery and much more serious

I agree with you.

You're just a miserable #### sometimes.?

 

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3 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

think a lot of people don't see the difference between feeling depressed and being miserable, lots of people enjoy being miserable, moaning and having an alternative narrative, they see it as their right not to join in with happy smiley people and wallow in rubbing up against false ideals , feeling depressed is very very different to just being a grump or misery and much more serious

Actually, yes.

I mentioned previously, that there is a danger in being prescribed bedrest for being unfit.  I have seen it happen to some women (because men are less sympathetic). 

That said, we have to accept balance.  And, you refer to that balance yourself.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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