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John Drake

The Brexit Thread (incl Brexit Party)

Brexit: What should happen now?  

165 members have voted

  1. 1. Brexit: What should happen now?

    • Accept Theresa May's Brexit deal and just get it over and done with
      18
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and leave with 'No Deal' regardless of the consequences
      49
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and force a General Election
      12
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and have a second referendum with 'Remain' as an option
      56
    • Reject Theresa May's Brexit deal and have a second referendum without 'Remain' as an option
      7
    • Something completely different which I'll explain in detail below
      0
    • I have absolutely no idea and have now lost the will to live, just make this stop, for pity's sake
      23


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1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

I can't speak for anyone else but I can confidently state I am not arguing with you to score points.

I wasn't either. His reply about scoring points was just more of his rambling nonsense. It doesn't even mean anything. Points for what, from whom?

I challenged him because he made a statement claiming that some people here thought throwing a milkshake at someone was worse than the three options he described (which included murder).

I asked him to provide me with the names of those "some" people, along with some evidence showing how he had arrived at that conclusion. I'm still waiting. TICK TOCK © Steve May 2019

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22 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I wasn't either. His reply about scoring points was just more of his rambling nonsense. It doesn't even mean anything. Points for what, from whom?

I challenged him because he made a statement claiming that some people here thought throwing a milkshake at someone was worse than the three options he described (which included murder).

I asked him to provide me with the names of those "some" people, along with some evidence showing how he had arrived at that conclusion. I'm still waiting. TICK TOCK © Steve May 2019

Nobody, I would hope, thinks there is any actual equivalence between flinging a milkshake and murdering an MP.   But that doesn’t mean you can’t still play the Republican trick.  Just that the gap is too big to play the trick outright so you have to play it with subtlety 

You see, the first aim is to make everybody talk about the milkshake flinging.   To do that you fake outrage and declare it to be the start of something really dark and nasty.   Then the debate becomes about the milkshake and your opponents have no choice but to defend themselves, and suddenly they’re talking about the milkshake too, rather than any substantive policy point.   The milkshake becomes the issue, even though it’s completely trivial.

If your opponents then point out the hypocrisy of arguing that milkshake flinging is the start of something darker when in fact the violence *has already occurred and it was your side that perpetrated it*, then you’ve won.  

How?   Because not only have you got your opponents talking about milkshakes, not policy, you’re able to claim that your opponents are taking the morally perverse line that milkshake throwing is equivalent to murder, which makes them look hysterical and you reasonable.

And by this point no one cares which side did the murdering.   Which, lets be honest, is very convenient for the side that actually did it.

 

 

 

 

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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43 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I'm still waiting. TICK TOCK © Steve May 2019

You are welcome to the tick tock thing.  

My tick tock question was simple, clear, correct and straight to the core of Brexit.   No leaver has been able to answer it cogently - not one single one of them.   On this board or elsewhere.

One Leaver on this board in particular has, I believe, blocked my posts, and another appears to have simply gone into hiding.

I have been quietly advised to draw my own conclusions from those responses.    Which I have.  I won’t share those conclusions, but they are not flattering to the people concerned.


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Who ever the new PM is they are obviously going to have a huge say what direction this country takes on the biggest political issue of a generation.

Who that person is will be decided by only 100,000 or so people, less than 0.2% of the population. 

Can anyone who thinks that a second referendum would be undemocratic explain how the situation we are in is somehow more democratic?

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3 minutes ago, verbatim said:

Can anyone who thinks that a second referendum would be undemocratic explain how the situation we are in is somehow more democratic?

In the UK, the PM is first among equals.  We aren't electing a president.  We are simply changing the leader.  The PM has a degree of autonomy but at the end of the day, as can be witnessed by May's resignation, the PM is simply the leader of the governing party and it is the individual MPs who are chosen by the electorate.  That is the case whether Labour is in power or the Tories and the Tories changing leader is no more or less democratic than when Labour did it.  In 2010 there was a coalition government.  Who decided that?  That's right: the LibDems and the Tories.  Nobody elected a coalition government.  Was that democratic in your book or not?

I think it is interesting but unfortunately predictable that the losing sides of the only two referenda we have held in recent times are both clamouring for a second vote.  

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11 minutes ago, verbatim said:

Who ever the new PM is they are obviously going to have a huge say what direction this country takes on the biggest political issue of a generation.

Who that person is will be decided by only 100,000 or so people, less than 0.2% of the population. 

Can anyone who thinks that a second referendum would be undemocratic explain how the situation we are in is somehow more democratic?

What you need to understand is that when an MP resigns the whip or changes party it is undemocratic that they don’t immediately trigger a by election.

That must be true, look at all the comments about the Change UK crowd.

But changing the leader of the government - that’s fine. It’s just how it is. Nobody needs a country wide by election on that.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I agree.

I think it's important that people who are lawfully campaigning or taking part in an election, aren't assaulted by having milkshake or the like thrown at them.

I'm not really sure what you want me to do differently, Bob? I haven't even been the one posting the links to the milkshake assaults - I just comment on them sometimes when they occur.

You seem to be inventing things that aren't true, and then saying you disagree with them.

But it's to shoot them, right?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Who ever the new PM is nothing will have changed re Brexit. The EU aren't going to re-negotiate the WAB. How the new PM proceeds with that is anyone's guess.

Johnson and Raab have said that if the EU don't re-negotiate then we will leave without a deal. Trouble is for them that some of their constituencies are trying to deselect their Remain backing MP's and will probably do so. The end result is that those MP's with nothing to lose will vote when a "No Confidence"  vote comes along "No Confidence" in their own Conservative Government.

The Government then falls and we have a General Election. 

That's one scenario anyway.

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2 hours ago, Saintslass said:

In the UK, the PM is first among equals.  We aren't electing a president.  We are simply changing the leader.  The PM has a degree of autonomy but at the end of the day, as can be witnessed by May's resignation, the PM is simply the leader of the governing party and it is the individual MPs who are chosen by the electorate.  That is the case whether Labour is in power or the Tories and the Tories changing leader is no more or less democratic than when Labour did it.  In 2010 there was a coalition government.  Who decided that?  That's right: the LibDems and the Tories.  Nobody elected a coalition government.  Was that democratic in your book or not?

I think it is interesting but unfortunately predictable that the losing sides of the only two referenda we have held in recent times are both clamouring for a second vote.  

Most of that is true. None of it answers the question about why the next PM (and by extension the future of the country) should be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.


I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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Lib Dem members who join in the next couple of weeks get to vote in the upcoming leadership election. So is it possible to sign up to become a Conservative member and try and elect the least fruitcakey of the MPs who gets through to the public ballot?

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3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

What you need to understand is that when an MP resigns the whip or changes party it is undemocratic that they don’t immediately trigger a by election.

That must be true, look at all the comments about the Change UK crowd.

But changing the leader of the government - that’s fine. It’s just how it is. Nobody needs a country wide by election on that.

How do these people get offended at being called stupid? It is like Michaelango being offended at being called an artist. 

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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18 hours ago, ckn said:

And the strange folk voting for the Brexit Party in the North West have most likely chosen this lovely person as their representative to the EU Parliament.

 

Owen Jones?

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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12 hours ago, Trojan said:

But it's to shoot them, right?

WTF is up with you?....and others in here similarly afflicted. It's highly offensive of you to suggest that anyone on here holds that view and ypu should remove your post.

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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10 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Most of that is true. None of it answers the question about why the next PM (and by extension the future of the country) should be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

Er, I'm not old, I'm female, and I don't live in either Surrey or Cambridgeshire.  I've always been a Tory voter, even when I was 18.  I still didn't live in Surrey or Cambridgeshire.

 

Edited by Saintslass

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9 hours ago, M j M said:

Lib Dem members who join in the next couple of weeks get to vote in the upcoming leadership election. So is it possible to sign up to become a Conservative member and try and elect the least fruitcakey of the MPs who gets through to the public ballot?

You have to have been a member for at least three months to vote in a leadership election.

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9 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Er, I'm not old, I'm female, and I don't live in either Surrey or Cambridgeshire.  I've always been a Tory voter, even when I was 18.  I still didn't live in Surrey or Cambridgeshire.

70% of the Tory membership is male.  The average age is 57.  38% of the membership is over 66.  97% of the membership is white.  Nearly 60% of Tory members live in Eastern England, London, the South East and the South West.

I therefore have no idea where Browny got the notion that the next PM will be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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10 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Most of that is true. None of it answers the question about why the next PM (and by extension the future of the country) should be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

Because them’s the rules.    You elect your local MP,  you do not elect the Prime Minister or the government.

It’s notable that the Tories were bitterly critical of Gordon Brown in the same situation.   I wonder if they will be self aware enough to criticise themselves now?

Answers on a postcard...

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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26 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

70% of the Tory membership is male.  The average age is 57.  38% of the membership is over 66.  97% of the membership is white.  Nearly 60% of Tory members live in Eastern England, London, the South East and the South West.

I therefore have no idea where Browny got the notion that the next PM will be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

Crikey, were hostages to these people!

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2 minutes ago, shrek said:

Crikey, were hostages to these people!

Does that mean Saintslass has Stockholm syndrome. 

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42 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

You have to have been a member for at least three months to vote in a leadership election.

Oh well, one for next time maybe. It would have been interesting to try and re-insert myself into a party which my parents were members of and which I used to vote for every election. Alas they left me (and the centrist pro European constituency I grew up in) far behind.

 

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44 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

70% of the Tory membership is male.  The average age is 57.  38% of the membership is over 66.  97% of the membership is white.  Nearly 60% of Tory members live in Eastern England, London, the South East and the South West.

I therefore have no idea where Browny got the notion that the next PM will be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

I would imagine that they spend quite a lot of time sneering about “diversity” 

I am very interested in diversity of people because it leads to diversity of opinion and then to far better decision making.  

This week I was writing a report into automation in warehousing (because I’m rock and roll) and I asked a junior colleague for help with something.   After a thirty minute chat with her, I had to rework the whole thing because she had a completely different perspective that changed my mind.    Turns out that she had experience working back home in China on the topic.

If you have a bunch of largely old white men with the same background* making decisions you have a real risk of groupthinking yourselves into an absurd position.   Which is what has happened to the Tories, and they’ve dragged the country with them.

*doesnt have to be old white men, any group of closely aligned people with the same viewpoint are prone to this

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English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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A longish thread about one of those issues that's not going to just evaporative just because the PM will be different.

 

Worth noting that the author is from the rabidly pro brexit Telegraph.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Can I ask a favour?  If you intend to insult another forum member, or engage in harassing tactics, then just stop.  Give it a break.  Let John and I have a few days of quiet over the bank holiday weekend without persistent personal bickering.

Three choices really:

- Learn to use the "ignore" function;
- Behave; or
- Go find something better to do for a few days.

I did a basic tidy-up but got fed up so there's a few borderline ones left.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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2 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

70% of the Tory membership is male.  The average age is 57.  38% of the membership is over 66.  97% of the membership is white.  Nearly 60% of Tory members live in Eastern England, London, the South East and the South West.

I therefore have no idea where Browny got the notion that the next PM will be determined by a few old white men in Surrey and Cambridgeshire.

And you got those figures from where exactly?

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