Where are RLs Huge Athletes

[Yorkshire Knight]

32 minutes ago, rhinos78 said:

Yeah absolutely agree and if this disscusion was on a rugby union board i would be. Forwards from either code dont translate well to being forwards in the other.

But League forwards would be getting abused by the laws of the game in union, not because they wernt up to it physicaly and skillwise.

Really? So they could hack in the scrums and lineouts? The very fatties that posters here like to deride would destroy any rugby forward in a scrum  

[Manx RL]

4 minutes ago, St Etrigan said:

Its taken 3 pages before the one person who shows that we do have athletes who match the opening posters criteria. Alex Walmsley, there are others of a similar height Pauli Pauli, Mose Masoe, others that don't spring to mind.

The OP misses out the point that the height of the players in RU and NBA is precisely the reason they are in the team, in other contact sports it can be a liability being too tall.

I could be wrong but does football have these giants playing the sport at the top level, I can only think of Crouch at the 6'5" plus size. If there is an advantage to just having players of that height and build then football has the resources to bring them through.

Think goal keepers...

[St Etrigan]

8 minutes ago, Manx RL said:

Think goal keepers...

So another specialist position - makes sense

[rhinos78]

36 minutes ago, JohnM said:

 

You could indeed, if you were posting on tbe cross code forum. 

Not sure what you mean. Because im on a Rugby League forum, because im a fan of League, me personaly, im more interested in talking about how players from other codes would transition to league.

[Damien]

8 hours ago, Celt said:

Fire away then mate. Just let me know which top quality athletes (size, pace, power-wise) Rugby League has brought through their development system recently in the UK.

 

Reading this and some of your other posts you seem to severely underestimate the players that take up and who are recruited to play Rugby League and I don't know how much you actually know about it.

Just to answer some of the points made in this and other posts. What I will say firstly is that a lot of these stereotypical great looking athletes don't make it in Rugby League and their skills from other sports and/or attributes don't transfer. At Wigan I have seen plenty of Academy players that athletically really look the part and are tremendous athletes. Indeed I have heard stories of absolute freaks in the gym or when it comes to speed times. The thing is plenty of these players don't make it.

For example you wouldn't have picked Sam Tomkins to make the grade on size and indeed he was released at one time as an academy player and had to plead and persevere to get a 2nd chance. Other players have also been told they are too small and even someone like Jason Robinson was struggling in the academy whilst a Scrum Half and you wouldn't have picked him to have the career he had in two codes based on size or athletic ability. I'd hazard a guess that there are far stronger players than John Bateman in a gym but few stronger on a Rugby pitch in contact or in the wrestle. At times I think even RL fans severely underestimate and take for granted the skills required to play Rugby League.

On your general point I know that Wigan recruit 'athletes' from all over and not just stereotypical Rugby League players. They have certainly gone into schools in Manchester and recruited Basketball players, athletes etc based on their athletic ability and what aptitude they have shown to take up RL in trials/drills. Indeed someone in the u19s like Nathaniel Marshall was born in London and went to school in Bolton and was not a RL player but then was scouted and went to St Pats initially to get a RL 'education'.

Again at my own, young players like Joe Greenwood and Joe Burgess are very athletic 6'4" rangy, great speed. Then younger players again, and players that are still under 19's players like Liam Forsythe are again 6'4". Someone like Samy Kibula who is still u19s but was promoted to the first team last season is a man mountain and very powerful, 6' 3" and 17st 13lbs:

https://www.wiganwarriors.com/teams/first-team/samy-kibula

In short RL has lots of athletes like you are looking for but they all certainly do not make it or make it playing for England at the highest level.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Yorkshire Knight said:

I feel assertions made about the athleticism of union forwards is always based on props or England union forwards

Are you allowed to post on the cross code forum?

[rhinos78]

25 minutes ago, Yorkshire Knight said:

Really? So they could hack in the scrums and lineouts? The very fatties that posters here like to deride would destroy any rugby forward in a scrum  

Arnt scrums and lineouts part of the rules of union?  Your arguing with yourself. League forwards would also get destroyed in rucks and  Mauls and give penalty after penalty away, going off there feet, not supporting there own weight, tackler not releasing tackled player, Yellow cards for laughably weak tackles, yellow cards for a knock on when trying an intercept....The list is endless. Thats why, as iv already said, Forwards from either code dont translate well to being forwards in the other code.  

Physicaly and skillwise, If the best you can come up with is that a pack of players who scrum morning, day and night, in most instances to win a penalty they usually boot sumwhere, could outscrum a pack of players who use a scrum as a basically uncontested form of restarting the game, then your making my Argument for me.

Thats why League forwards can go to union and play internationaly in the backs .Despite not knowing most of the endless rules of union, in most cases theyr a better combination of Athleticism, Power, Endurance and skill than there Union counterparts.

Stuart Barnes gets aroused when a union forward makes 11 tackles in a game and they only have to get back a meter each time, League forwards regularly make 50+ tackles and have to get back 10m each time, that alone would kill off most union forwards, most the others would be found out once there  catch and pass skills were called upon 

[Celt]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Kallum Watkin, Mikolaj Oledzki is an absolute unit, Alex Walmsley, the Burgii, Joe Burgess,

yep - fair point - I would agree with you on most of those. (Watkins is a lot bigger now than when he first came through, but agree Re the others).

[rhinos78]

4 minutes ago, Celt said:

yep - fair point - I would agree with you on most of those. (Watkins is a lot bigger now than when he first came through, but agree Re the others).

Human being grows in size between the ages of 17 and 27...Who is this Watkins anomaly? 

 

[Yorkshire Knight]

9 minutes ago, rhinos78 said:

Arnt scrums and lineouts part of the rules of union?  Your arguing with yourself. League forwards would also get destroyed in rucks and  Mauls and give penalty after penalty away, going off there feet, not supporting there own weight, tackler not releasing tackled player, Yellow cards for laughably weak tackles, yellow cards for a knock on when trying an intercept....The list is endless. Thats why, as iv already said, Forwards from either code dont translate well to being forwards in the other code.  

Physicaly and skillwise, If the best you can come up with is that a pack of players who scrum morning, day and night, in most instances to win a penalty they usually boot sumwhere, could outscrum a pack of players who use a scrum as a basically uncontested form of restarting the game, then your making my Argument for me.

Thats why League forwards can go to union and play internationaly in the backs .Despite not knowing most of the endless rules of union, in most cases theyr a better combination of Athleticism, Power, Endurance and skill than there Union counterparts.

Stuart Barnes gets aroused when a union forward makes 11 tackles in a game and they only have to get back a meter each time, League forwards regularly make 50+ tackles and have to get back 10m each time, that alone would kill off most union forwards, most the others would be found out once there  catch and pass skills were called upon 

Scrums and lineouts involve skill believe it or not. The rules wouldn't even need to come into play. They would get pushed off their own scrum possession, get their lineouts stolen, counter rucked etc. Union props spend years perfecting their craft which is why most peak late 20s or early 30s. 

Yes but those 11 tackles would generally be accompanied by other stats. Can't really compare the two games. How many steals to rugby forwards make, how many rucks do they clear, how many counter rucks? When one game is more focused on the running and tackling part then of course you'd expect players to have greater numbers in those areas

 

 

[Yorkshire Knight]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

So don't put them in a scrum, they can play other positions because of their relative athleticism and general rugby skills. 

That's why Ben Teo, SBW, Burgess, Farrell found positions outside the scrum 

That is a good point but the comparison was like for like 

[rhinos78]

29 minutes ago, Yorkshire Knight said:

Scrums and lineouts involve skill believe it or not. The rules wouldn't even need to come into play. They would get pushed off their own scrum possession, get their lineouts stolen, counter rucked etc. Union props spend years perfecting their craft which is why most peak late 20s or early 30s. 

Yes but those 11 tackles would generally be accompanied by other stats. Can't really compare the two games. How many steals to rugby forwards make, how many rucks do they clear, how many counter rucks? When one game is more focused on the running and tackling part then of course you'd expect players to have greater numbers in those areas

 

 

Exactly what iv just said, League forwards wouldnt translate well to being a forward in union because of the many rules, how many times is it going to take before it sinks in? Scrums, lineouts, rucks, mauls, steals etc etc, all massive parts of union that arnt or are barley a part of League. Tackling, running, passing, evasion, endurance, skill....All things that are meant to be a part of both games, all things that league forwards blow union forwards out the park on.

Iv already said, more times than should be necessary, that a League forward wouldnt translate well to being a union forward . This discussion started from me saying Union forwards would get abused in League, im assuming you dont agree , so tell me which union forwards you think would go well in league and why? What backs my opinion up up is that league forwards can go to union and play internationaly for the best national teams in the world, in the backs, despite not knowing the rules, that suggests they are a more rounded, better skilled athlete.

The other stats accompanying the 11 tackles would be 32 running meters and 2 errors for a typical performance , absolute rubbish when it comes to having the ball in hand

[Damien]

The Union element of the discussion and how players would fare in Union should be cross code, not here.

[Rupert Prince]

The basic premise of the original post is false.

The best and biggest muscle a player has in any sport is the one between his ears.  

Let's close this thread down shall we please?

[Yorkshire Knight]

2 hours ago, rhinos78 said:

Exactly what iv just said, League forwards wouldnt translate well to being a forward in union because of the many rules, how many times is it going to take before it sinks in? Scrums, lineouts, rucks, mauls, steals etc etc, all massive parts of union that arnt or are barley a part of League. Tackling, running, passing, evasion, endurance, skill....All things that are meant to be a part of both games, all things that league forwards blow union forwards out the park on.

Iv already said, more times than should be necessary, that a League forward wouldnt translate well to being a union forward . This discussion started from me saying Union forwards would get abused in League, im assuming you dont agree , so tell me which union forwards you think would go well in league and why? What backs my opinion up up is that league forwards can go to union and play internationaly for the best national teams in the world, in the backs, despite not knowing the rules, that suggests they are a more rounded, better skilled athlete.

The other stats accompanying the 11 tackles would be 32 running meters and 2 errors for a typical performance , absolute rubbish when it comes to having the ball in hand

But my point is you're limiting union players when you only focus on those aspects. Yes tackling, running, endurance etc are part of both games but those won't be the only focus for union players especially forwards as each position requires a specific skillset or attributes. Tackling and running are also part of American Football yet not every player will be doing that because just like union, it's a position specific game. Does that make them inferior? Absolutely not! The NFL has some of the best athletes in the world.  You saying rugby forwards wouldn't translate well to union due to rules while ignoring the technical skills required is an attempt to make the game seem less skillful. 

Try any of the All Blacks forward pack or even the South Africans who had a forward that ran the 100 in 10.9 seconds. 

 

[Manx RL]

3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The basic premise of the original post is false.

The best and biggest muscle a player has in any sport is the one between his ears.  

Let's close this thread down shall we please?

But the brain isn't a muscle.

[rhinos78]

38 minutes ago, Yorkshire Knight said:

But my point is you're limiting union players when you only focus on those aspects. Yes tackling, running, endurance etc are part of both games but those won't be the only focus for union players especially forwards as each position requires a specific skillset or attributes. Tackling and running are also part of American Football yet not every player will be doing that because just like union, it's a position specific game. Does that make them inferior? Absolutely not! The NFL has some of the best athletes in the world.  You saying rugby forwards wouldn't translate well to union due to rules while ignoring the technical skills required is an attempt to make the game seem less skillful. 

Try any of the All Blacks forward pack or even the South Africans who had a forward that ran the 100 in 10.9 seconds. 

 

But my point was Union forwards would be abused in rugby league, all your doing is giving me the reasons why they would be abused, focus on this, specific skillset for that...Your trying your best to disagree but your comfirming my point,  they wouldnt be good enough at doing what a rugby league forward needs to do.

You put the best 6 of that allblack pack on a league pitch and theyd get absolutely smashed by most club sides

Put the best six League forwards on a union pitch and theyd all be picked at center for there national team.

Im getting the impression you think im doing union forwards a disservice by saying theyd be rubbish at league, i think its the other way round, your doing league forwards the disservice, iv said countless times league forwards would struggle as a forward in union, but you fail to acknowledge that union forwards would struggle in league, when in reality, most would get absolutely smashed and instead of someone like james Haskells 12 tackles and 7 carrys for 23 meters with only 3 handling errors getting him MOM, he'd be getting put on the fastest transport back to Twickenham. 

[Damien]

Please ignore the troll and his attempts to make this about Union

[TheReaper]

It's "the rules" in league as much as union. The rules of league requiring 10m back leads to needing specialized fitness, the rules of union allowing rucks leads to specialized breakdown techniques, etc. The rules of American football stopping play for each down leads to specialized explosiveness. 

That's kinda how sports work.

[Harry Stottle]

We don't need the 4 x 10 minute behemoths, get the game to a maximum 3 interchanges and observe the skill level and speed increase very considerably.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

On 11/24/2018 at 5:02 PM, OMEGA said:

Accross many major sports the last 20 years weve seen genuinely powerful yet superbly athletic giants emerge

Boxing  - Lewis, both Klitschko’s, Joshua, Wilder, Fury, Joyce etc there are loads of 6’6”  to 6’10” + 

Basketball - Has changed from 7” lanky beanpoles often awkward looking to superbly proportioned athletes

NFL - Has a range of upper 6’ close to 7’ huge all rounders who have speed, agility, power & endurance

Even here in England we see Rugby Union players standing 6’8” & 6’10” but they’ve evolved into fine athletes with great skill & speed. They’ve unearthed a great wing prospect in Joe Cokanasiga 6’5” 18st with great speed, power & good hands. Players like Itoje & Courtney Laws also.

I know Rugby League Players have got bigger and we have some genuine big men with athletic ability like Sam Burgess but most are big but without being agile or athletic. In general our biggest guys are 6’4” with the odd exception but the exceptions are quite one dimensional. We have a great number of 5’10” to 6’2” (not small men) who have good speed, footwork, endurance and athletic ability but where are the giants that are dominating the elite levels of other sports?

No they aren't, those really tall/large guys do not have speed, they don't have agility and they absolutely do not have endurance, you are totally looking at the wrong athletes/positions and they would not do well in league simply because of the endurance factor alone. Likewise the really big guys in union, the reason they can be so big is simply because it's getting more and more ike gridiron, just look at the backs, they're massive, because they hardly do any running and very little in the trenches. They can be pretty much like a bigger RB or FB in build. Even players like James Haskill wouldn't be able to cope in league for long periods IMHO, he also doesn't have the skill-set, those that can't, play union.

I'd rather have a Neil Back in the trenches with incredible endurance and a relentless don't give a @@@@ attitude if my opponent is bigger or a Tyreek Hill (Kansas City Chiefs WR) with blistering pace and amazing feet on the wing as opposed to a Vainikolo/Lomu type. Both the latter were brilliant at what they did but both were in outstanding top drawer teams that dominated elsewhere. As Lomu found out in the RUWC in SA and against France, a player who can tackle and has a bit about them can bring down a big player and opposing teams know that defensively they are bang average so try to expose that, that applied to both Lesley and Jonah.

Size does matter but in RL not as much as people think, for certain sports once you get past a certain size unless you can maintain everything else in proportion athletically, balance/agility, turn of speed, then you can become less effective than a smaller player. The whole endurance balanced over explosive power is highlighted perfectly in gridiron, RU as I said has become not too dissimilar, now that union has so many subs this has masked the endurance aspect so a forward may only actually be involved in 20 minutes of actual ball in play time if subbed off at the 60 minute mark.

The speed of league and endurance required means that very few big guys can manage to cope at the top level, why do you think Jordan Mailata was released despite skittling some kids out the way in the u21s down under?

[absentee thoughtlord]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

get the game to a maximum 3 interchanges.

And on this we disagree. Personally, I'd have six subs at SL level and the same number of changes. Part of the game's intrinsic appeal are the collisions and, it follows, those which involve, say, players of 19+ stones are going to be more appealing to the neutral observer.

My biggest criticism of the game over recent years is the relative homogeneity of player stature. But this is simply the result of clubs playing safe within a constrictive salary cap. The 'others' have the luxury of being able to take chances on playing personnel and the variety that produces.

There's no doubt that there ARE very big guys currently playing 'the other' who would do well in League, and especially if coaches were afforded the luxury of being better able to use an extended subs bench.

 

[Celt]

14 hours ago, Damien said:

Reading this and some of your other posts you seem to severely underestimate the players that take up and who are recruited to play Rugby League and I don't know how much you actually know about it.

Just to answer some of the points made in this and other posts. What I will say firstly is that a lot of these stereotypical great looking athletes don't make it in Rugby League and their skills from other sports and/or attributes don't transfer. At Wigan I have seen plenty of Academy players that athletically really look the part and are tremendous athletes. Indeed I have heard stories of absolute freaks in the gym or when it comes to speed times. The thing is plenty of these players don't make it.

For example you wouldn't have picked Sam Tomkins to make the grade on size and indeed he was released at one time as an academy player and had to plead and persevere to get a 2nd chance. Other players have also been told they are too small and even someone like Jason Robinson was struggling in the academy whilst a Scrum Half and you wouldn't have picked him to have the career he had in two codes based on size or athletic ability. I'd hazard a guess that there are far stronger players than John Bateman in a gym but few stronger on a Rugby pitch in contact or in the wrestle. At times I think even RL fans severely underestimate and take for granted the skills required to play Rugby League.

On your general point I know that Wigan recruit 'athletes' from all over and not just stereotypical Rugby League players. They have certainly gone into schools in Manchester and recruited Basketball players, athletes etc based on their athletic ability and what aptitude they have shown to take up RL in trials/drills. Indeed someone in the u19s like Nathaniel Marshall was born in London and went to school in Bolton and was not a RL player but then was scouted and went to St Pats initially to get a RL 'education'.

Again at my own, young players like Joe Greenwood and Joe Burgess are very athletic 6'4" rangy, great speed. Then younger players again, and players that are still under 19's players like Liam Forsythe are again 6'4". Someone like Samy Kibula who is still u19s but was promoted to the first team last season is a man mountain and very powerful, 6' 3" and 17st 13lbs:

https://www.wiganwarriors.com/teams/first-team/samy-kibula

In short RL has lots of athletes like you are looking for but they all certainly do not make it or make it playing for England at the highest level.

I take your point re some of my posts, and will try to answer more fully at a later point.

The crux of my standpoint though is that this forum is populated (IMO) by a number of utter dreamers. These people decry other sports and spout utter dated garbage about rugby league too. (If you want an example check this very thread out: 'The bigger they are the harder they fall' FFS). 

Anyway - I take the criticism on board and appreciate the detailed reply.

[Celt]

13 hours ago, rhinos78 said:

Human being grows in size between the ages of 17 and 27...Who is this Watkins anomaly? 

 

Aye - but he was playing for England as a skinny wee guy who was far too lightweight to match up to the Aussies.

That was my point. Honestly - looking at England at that point....you were laughable!

Credit where it is due, you are considerably improves these days.

[RP London]

22 hours ago, rhinos78 said:

Exactly what iv just said, League forwards wouldnt translate well to being a forward in union because of the many rules, how many times is it going to take before it sinks in? Scrums, lineouts, rucks, mauls, steals etc etc, all massive parts of union that arnt or are barley a part of League. Tackling, running, passing, evasion, endurance, skill....All things that are meant to be a part of both games, all things that league forwards blow union forwards out the park on.

Iv already said, more times than should be necessary, that a League forward wouldnt translate well to being a union forward . This discussion started from me saying Union forwards would get abused in League, im assuming you dont agree , so tell me which union forwards you think would go well in league and why? What backs my opinion up up is that league forwards can go to union and play internationaly for the best national teams in the world, in the backs, despite not knowing the rules, that suggests they are a more rounded, better skilled athlete.

The other stats accompanying the 11 tackles would be 32 running meters and 2 errors for a typical performance , absolute rubbish when it comes to having the ball in hand

on the question in bold.. 

I would be interested to see both Sam Simmonds and Sam Underhill in League. Both good ball carriers, with a bit of a turn of speed, pretty mobile and good tacklers.. Both also seem to have a good pair of hands. 

Ironically there is some discussion on whether they are too small to play in the england backrow (especially simmonds at 8 ) as there seems to be an obsession with a big backrow rather than a mobile one (which i hope is maybe changing)