RLIF announce 12 team 9s World Cup for 2019

[Luxembourger]

On the format, the press release talks of 28 games in total (men’s and women’s). I presume that means 7 women’s games (a round robin plus a play-off final) and 21 men’s games (this would mean 3 groups of 4, round robin group stages with group winners and 1 runner up going into the semis etc). Worth pointing out that if you went to 16 men’s teams, that would add 10 more games as you would then need quarter finals (assuming that you keep the same four team group format). 38 games in total would be a lot (NRL nines has 34 games if you include the 3 women’s matches).

There are 11 men’s teams currently qualified for the 2021 World Cup that I assume will all be invited (Aus, NZ, Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, PNG, Lebanon, Eng, Wales, France, Jamaica). The other European teams will be involved in a 2021RLWC qualifying campaign next autumn so I can’t see any of them being invited as the 12th team. That leaves USA and Cook Islands as the next obvious choices for the 12th spot - my bet would be USA, with their RLWC playoff with the Cooks scheduled for Aus before or after the 9’s WC.

 

[JM2010]

2 hours ago, JonM said:

Any thoughts on whether England are likely to be one of the teams taking part? Holding it the week of the Grand Final seems to suggest that we wouldn't be expected to send a serious squad over.

I think there's enough good players to send a good squad excluding players in the GF. There's also the NRL players

[Dave T]

Surely England or GB would send a team of specialist 9s players to try and win it?

[JonM]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I think there's enough good players to send a good squad excluding players in the GF. There's also the NRL players

For test matches, we've tended to get the players together for squad training etc. for a week or two before playing. This would be pretty much a scratch team from players not involved in the GF, with the make-up of it decided a few days before flying out.

[Martyn Sadler]

I'm surprised to see how much negativity there is on this thread.

It seems that some people don't like it because it isn't perfect, because it doesn't involve enough teams, because it's going to be played on Friday and Saturday and because an England squad might not be able to take players who feature in the Grand Final.

All those objections are valid, but they overlook the fact that this is happening for the first time and that it will be played in an iconic new stadium in western Sydney.

If the tournament is a success it has the potential to expand in future, both in terms of the number of teams and the potential location, while there is also the possibility that we can get Nines to become an established Commonwealth Games sport and, in the longer term, even an Olympic sport.

The RLIF deserves some credit for this proposal, in my opinion, under its CEO Nigel Wood. Let's not be too grudging.

[JonM]

Why is this "the first time", out of interest? Is it because the Aussies like to pretend the ARL/Superleague thing never happened?

I was in Townsville for the World 9's in 1997 when people like Adrian Morley, Denis Betts, Andy Farrell and Keith Senior were in the GB squad and Stacey Jones & Stephen Kearney were in the winning NZ team.

[paulwalker71]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Surely England or GB would send a team of specialist 9s players to try and win it?

How would we know which players are 'specialists'? Surely we need to have some sort of 9s competition - either a 'European Cup' or something domestic - so that we can actually figure that out?

[Martyn Sadler]

1 minute ago, JonM said:

Why is this "the first time", out of interest? Is it because the Aussies like to pretend the ARL/Superleague thing never happened?

I was in Townsville for the World 9's in 1997 when people like Adrian Morley, Denis Betts, Andy Farrell and Keith Senior were in the GB squad and Stacey Jones & Stephen Kearney were in the winning NZ team.

Of course you're right.

I should have said the first time for many years, or the first time that a World Nines tournament has been an official RLIF World Cup event.

[paulwalker71]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

Seems like both England & France (if invited) will be sending far from their best squads though, which seems odd for something that's being billed as a world cup.

Well, England could make up a decent squad just from players in the NRL. Add a few players not involved in the SL playoff semis and finals, and I'm sure we have a very good squad

I don't see why France wouldn't have a strong team. Assuming Catalans don't make the final 4 (of course, they might, but lets see...) then why wouldn't they be sending something close to full strength?

[JonM]

1 minute ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, England could make up a decent squad just from players in the NRL. Add a few players not involved in the SL playoff semis and finals, and I'm sure we have a very good squad

Just find it a bit weird to have a "world cup" in which it's assumed up front that countries won't send their strongest teams, or really try do their best in terms of preparation etc. and where participation is by invitation.

To be clear, I'm still pleased it's happening and I hope it's the first of many such events.

[paulwalker71]

As regards England having to send a weakened team due to the SL Grand Final...

If we discount teams that reach play in the Grand Final or the Final Eliminator (or whatever they call it), the squad would have two weeks to prepare. 

If Hull don't make that stage you've got Connor, if Huddersfield don't then you've got McGillvary. If Leeds don't make it then you've got Myler and Watkins, if Catalans don't make it, there's Tomkins. Assuming Wakefield don't make it, there's Johnstone and Lyne. If one of those does make it then someone like Wigan or Castleford or Wire won't - and then you have a whole load more candidates.

Throw in the NRL contingent of Burgess (x3), Whitehead, Bateman, Hodgson and Hall and it seems to me that it shouldn't be difficult to put out a squad of 12-13 players (not sure what a 9s squad size is) from players who would be considered 'first choice'. We don't need a squad of 21 for a 9's comp! 

 

[Odsal Outlaw]

30 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I'm surprised to see how much negativity there is on this thread.

It seems that some people don't like it because it isn't perfect, because it doesn't involve enough teams, because it's going to be played on Friday and Saturday and because an England squad might not be able to take players who feature in the Grand Final.

All those objections are valid, but they overlook the fact that this is happening for the first time and that it will be played in an iconic new stadium in western Sydney.

If the tournament is a success it has the potential to expand in future, both in terms of the number of teams and the potential location, while there is also the possibility that we can get Nines to become an established Commonwealth Games sport and, in the longer term, even an Olympic sport.

The RLIF deserves some credit for this proposal, in my opinion, under its CEO Nigel Wood. Let's not be too grudging.

I think you are right to call out the positives and I agree with the ones you referenced.  With RL it just always feels like we score a few own goals ... making it less attractive for UK viewers with scheduling, making it so close to our GF meaning it won’t be our strongest squad ... but on balance it’s a fantastic first step.  We just need to hope it’s a success so that it becomes a fixture of international RL.  I honestly think 9s could be a great growth vehicle for RL. 

The one area I would disagree with you tho is giving any credit to Big Nige.  

[Man of Kent]

Another international tournament. And a new format too. Good stuff.

Look forward to seeing it. I hope it is a success.

[Martyn Sadler]

6 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

I think you are right to call out the positives and I agree with the ones you referenced.  With RL it just always feels like we score a few own goals ... making it less attractive for UK viewers with scheduling, making it so close to our GF meaning it won’t be our strongest squad ... but on balance it’s a fantastic first step.  We just need to hope it’s a success so that it becomes a fixture of international RL.  I honestly think 9s could be a great growth vehicle for RL. 

The one area I would disagree with you tho is giving any credit to Big Nige.  

Well, Nigel is the CEO of the RLIF and it seems to have made some progress since he took over that role.

And as CEO I'm sure his role is a bit greater than simply being there to put the kettle on.

So, without knowing precisely how all this has been set up, I think we should give him some credit for this.

[Keith989]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

If we look at what a similar sport to ours did.

In 1991 and 1995 they had 16 team full World Cups.

Their 7s version in 1993 (the inaugural one) had 24 teams.

They have stayed at 24 teams, but added 16 women's teams in 2009.

It is easier to fund and give exposure to lesser nations for these kinds of tournaments than a full World cup where you have to base them in Oz for weeks and weeks. 

No way should a one weekend tournament have fewer teams than the full World Cup.

The HSBC 7s circuit runs at a huge loss and is subsidized by World rugby. You need to stop comparing yourselfs to union, World rugby has a lot of money to throw around whereas League is almost solely relying on the NRL to fund internationals, who will always put their clubs first and rightly so. 

[Chamey]

7 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

The HSBC 7s circuit runs at a huge loss and is subsidized by World rugby. You need to stop comparing yourselfs to union, World rugby has a lot of money to throw around whereas League is almost solely relying on the NRL to fund internationals, who will always put their clubs first and rightly so. 

I believe that in their latest accounts it broke even, hence why they’re mooting a second tier division. So much of sport is spending money to make money, the issue is that the 9sWC will almost certainly be abandoned immediately, at a loss, and no progress gained due to a lack of future editions. 

[Keith989]

6 minutes ago, Chamey said:

I believe that in their latest accounts it broke even, hence why they’re mooting a second tier division. So much of sport is spending money to make money, the issue is that the 9sWC will almost certainly be abandoned immediately, at a loss, and no progress gained due to a lack of future editions. 

Maybe it's the unions themselves that run at a loss then and they're subsidized by world rugby. It's the reason why Ireland didn't have a team for years until it was announced that the sport was in the olympics. 

[Chamey]

7 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

Maybe it's the unions themselves that run at a loss then and they're subsidized by world rugby. It's the reason why Ireland didn't have a team for years until it was announced that the sport was in the olympics. 

Yeah, it's quite complicated, but WR breaks even and covers stadium rental, travel, a few training camps, hotel rooms and a daily allowance when on tour, but the unions have to find most of the salary money (WR only funds a bit). For Kenya/Fiji etc and places with a low cost of living the WR money and a small jersey sponsorship covers the salaries, but for places like Ireland and Italy (Italy keeps their team in the European circuit - where they don't have to hire them) it doesn't add up.

[Odsal Outlaw]

33 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Well, Nigel is the CEO of the RLIF and it seems to have made some progress since he took over that role.

And as CEO I'm sure his role is a bit greater than simply being there to put the kettle on.

So, without knowing precisely how all this has been set up, I think we should give him some credit for this.

The press release suggests this is very much NRL/Greenberg driven, even down to the fact that the NRL are speaking to the RLIF about a number of rule innovations. 

But, lets see what Nige delivers on the world stage and whether he can change the face of international RL.  His track record suggests it will more likely be despite of him rather than because.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

How would we know which players are 'specialists'? Surely we need to have some sort of 9s competition - either a 'European Cup' or something domestic - so that we can actually figure that out?

Exactly.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I'm surprised to see how much negativity there is on this thread.

It seems that some people don't like it because it isn't perfect, because it doesn't involve enough teams, because it's going to be played on Friday and Saturday and because an England squad might not be able to take players who feature in the Grand Final.

All those objections are valid, but they overlook the fact that this is happening for the first time and that it will be played in an iconic new stadium in western Sydney.

If the tournament is a success it has the potential to expand in future, both in terms of the number of teams and the potential location, while there is also the possibility that we can get Nines to become an established Commonwealth Games sport and, in the longer term, even an Olympic sport.

The RLIF deserves some credit for this proposal, in my opinion, under its CEO Nigel Wood. Let's not be too grudging.

This is fair, but as you acknowledge, the criticisms are also fair.

The reality is we will all watch it if we can, we are all RL fans.

But I fear that we have been thrown so few scraps we are happy to accept whatever we can. My real worry here is it has been capped at 12 teams as it will be easy to create 12 teams of Aussie players and English based players who will be touring anyway, with no need to step down to find funding for Serbia, Canada, Jamaica etc. 

The fact that it is an invitational is a bit of an alarm bell ringing too. 

I hope I am wrong and they genuinely invite players from across the world, but I dont expect it to happen. Let's see.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The issue regarding players being available or not is that we have no idea which if any players are any good at 9s. Is Walkers broken field running more suited to 9s? Do we want big wingers like Hall and McGilvery or smaller faster runners, Do we want a hooker who will shore up the middle and make loads of tackles or would a hooker like Clark run them ragged around the ruck. Do you need a specialist hooker at all. Nobody knows because our best players have never played. I think going up against some of the SH nations, not just Australia and NZ with 0 experience is just embarrassing. I honestly wouldnt be surprised to see no NH nations win a game against SH nations.

Don't worry about it. We'll have a warm up against the French ladies on a Tuesday morning in Leigh.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

This 9s World Cup comes across as an idea thought up at the last minute with no real thought gone in to it. How does a Nation Qualify? I there plans for regional 9s for Nations to play in on a yearly basis? Is this just a one off event every 4 years? When is the next one and where will it be?

9s is a great tool to develop the Sport in areas where the Sport is being developed or its difficult to get 13 a side teams. I wonder how the 9s will be used. is it to be used as a way to promote the Sport to a New Audience? Is it to help promote the Sport outside the top 5 or 6 Nations. What exactly is the purpose of the 9s?

I dont think having it in Sydney/Australia is that great an idea. The World Cup was a failure in many areas for example. I can see benefits of using it in places like Toronto, Toulouse/Paris/Perpignan, London, Cardiff, Newcastle (UK) even Barcelona/Valencia to help push the development of the Sport in them areas

[Southerner80]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

The issue regarding players being available or not is that we have no idea which if any players are any good at 9s. Is Walkers broken field running more suited to 9s? Do we want big wingers like Hall and McGilvery or smaller faster runners, Do we want a hooker who will shore up the middle and make loads of tackles or would a hooker like Clark run them ragged around the ruck. Do you need a specialist hooker at all. Nobody knows because our best players have never played. I think going up against some of the SH nations, not just Australia and NZ with 0 experience is just embarrassing. I honestly wouldnt be surprised to see no NH nations win a game against SH nations.

I feel a decent team of UK based SL players given a few weeks would be very competitive. The basic skills of passing offloading and then the physicality of speed and power, are there in abundance if you pick the right lads. 

I'm not sure any of the opposition will be preping for this so much either. It may be like union in the days before the 7s circuit ie you get some good predominantly young players together And let them play with a basic plan..... 

Out of SL just to grab a few 

TJ, LMS, Shenton, Myler, McGillvary,  McShane, Liam Farrell, Manfredi, Kieran Dixon, Lineham, Charnley, Currie, Richardson etc etc.... 

 

[wackojacko]

With only one meaningful 9's competition every 4 years, the chance of us getting specialists any time soon seems remote...

A 9's World Cup seems like something you could do once a year, particularly given it's only a weekend. Glad it's happening, shame it's half-assed.