UK RL desperately needs a Manchester club

[Bob8]

4 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Unless Manchester Rangers have some sort of multi-millionaire owner with a vision to take them to Super League ASAP, which I don’t believe they do, then what we’re getting is another “bottom feeder” of a club that certainly won’t be grabbing the attention of a city like Manchester and pulling thousands in the turnstiles.

You may not be as well informed as you think on this particular aspect.

4 minutes ago, John WP Fan said:

This captures for me one of the main differences in sports culture between RL in the UK and North America. UK fans say there ought to be a team in Manchester. I look at the map and think "there are already 6-8 teams there!". I know the history of loyalty to each local team makes it difficult or impossible to establish a new team representing the broader area, but it looks to me as if that prime market has been fragmented in a way that destroys its ability to support a financially strong team.

I have a great deal of sympathy here.  Manchester is one of the most competitive sporting markets anywhere in the world.

[redjonn]

13 hours ago, Omott91 said:

Looking at it from an Aussie perspective on the map St Helens and Warrington are suburbs of Liverpool. It's only 15km or so. To me wouldn't Liverpool have 2 teams? To me it's like saying Sydney only has 1 team.

Actually closer if you take the outer boundaries of each. Plus Widnes is even closer, i.e. adjacent boundaries.

Physically they are very close, affinity wise they are miles apart.           Even if lots of people have moved from Liverpool into St Helens (and Warrington) over the decades.  On that note I'm as as likely to hear a Scouse accent in St Helens as an original Saints accent - that's probable slowly taking more and more interest away from Rugby. 

[The Future is League]

4 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Unless Manchester Rangers have some sort of multi-millionaire owner with a vision to take them to Super League ASAP, which I don’t believe they do, then what we’re getting is another “bottom feeder” of a club that certainly won’t be grabbing the attention of a city like Manchester and pulling thousands in the turnstiles.

 

 

Perhaps they could produce Manchester born and bred junior players capable of playing to a high level as they progress, just saying.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

Perhaps they could produce Manchester born and bred junior players capable of playing to a high level as they progress, just saying.

Likely? Nope. 

[Oxford]

UK RL desperately needs a Manchester club

 

Well it would certainly help and SRD would have a derby!

But then again I could do without the debates on straight into SL or not? Are their crowds real or made up? Will they take players from established traditional RL clubs? do they have produce young players ...etc etc

Or are those only asked if it's TWP or Parky is present or both?

[paulwalker71]

I agree that what we definitely don't want or need is a Manchester club scratching around the lower reaches of League 1, taking a slice of the Sky money and existing on crowds of 500.

Have the people behind Manchester Rangers got money? Genuinely I don't know. If they are serious people with a vision to scale up as they progress up through the leagues, then I think we should welcome them.

[Angelic Cynic]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

UK RL desperately needs a Manchester club

 

Well it would certainly help and SRD would have a derby!

But then again I could do without the debates on straight into SL or not? Are their crowds real or made up? Will they take players from established traditional RL clubs? do they have produce young players ...etc etc

Or are those only asked if it's TWP or Parky is present or both?

  As it appears that Licensing,in one form or another,is either on the agenda,or already decided,when it comes to Super League,then a club based in Manchester makes it too close to other Super League clubs.

  The geographical criteria was 20 miles - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/7138760.stm

   Not only could they take players from the area - but from the low attendances of other north west clubs.

   They could end up/start up replacing one of the established/traditional clubs.

   

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  As it appears that Licensing,in one form or another,is either on the agenda,or already decided,when it comes to Super League,then a club based in Manchester makes it too close to other Super League clubs.

  The geographical criteria was 20 miles - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/7138760.stm

   Not only could they take players from the area - but from the low attendances of other north west clubs.

   They could end up/start up replacing one of the established/traditional clubs.

   

Or if they are successful they could produce more players and increase attendances.

[Chamey]

If only we had a proper league pyramid where clubs could rise and fall to their natural level.

[steve wild]

Always amazes me that people who purport to support the sport, think that the way forward is to belittle or even get rid of long established, well run, clubs. I’m really dismayed at some of the ill-informed , presumptious anti-Swinton nonsense written on this thread .

As a director of Swinton Lions, I can state absolutely & categorically that we have NEVER lobbied against the inclusion of Manchester Rangers RLFC in the RFL. It’s none of our business.

Some of you clearly don’t understand what Swinton Lions are all about, so if you’d like facts rather than heresay or made-up nonsense, please email me via the club (you’ll find my address on our official website) and i’ll invite you as my guest to a match next season , including pre-match corporate meal. I’d be happy to show you around and explain the plans we have for the club. Failing club Damien? 

[Luckycreed]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:34 AM, Omott91 said:

Looking at it from an Aussie perspective on the map St Helens and Warrington are suburbs of Liverpool. It's only 15km or so. To me wouldn't Liverpool have 2 teams? To me it's like saying Sydney only has 1 team.

No there more like Ipswich is to Brisbane, sure a lot of Ipswich people commute to Brisbane to work, but the town has it's own identity. Ipswich people do not think of themselves as living in Brisbane and Brisbane people look down their noses at Ipswich a bit.

[Pie tries]

Swinton should merge with MR and become Manchester Lions. They will never return to a SL standard stadium - nor do they need to. Just need to make a brave decision and go for it.

Play as the Lions in Swinton colours, but move on under the banner of Manchester.

This move would be good for all - including Swinton, Manchester R AND Swinton

[Pie tries]

2 hours ago, steve wild said:

Always amazes me that people who purport to support the sport, think that the way forward is to belittle or even get rid of long established, well run, clubs. I’m really dismayed at some of the ill-informed , presumptious anti-Swinton nonsense written on this thread .

As a director of Swinton Lions, I can state absolutely & categorically that we have NEVER lobbied against the inclusion of Manchester Rangers RLFC in the RFL. It’s none of our business.

Some of you clearly don’t understand what Swinton Lions are all about, so if you’d like facts rather than heresay or made-up nonsense, please email me via the club (you’ll find my address on our official website) and i’ll invite you as my guest to a match next season , including pre-match corporate meal. I’d be happy to show you around and explain the plans we have for the club. Failing club Damien? 

I went to a couple of games at Sale last year - I wish you all the very best. I just worry about your long term future 

[Colin James]

On 12/15/2018 at 11:25 AM, The Daddy said:

 In my view all of these clubs are walking dead, failed entities adding little to no value to the sport. 

 

Ironically this statement could have referred to London at several points in the last 30 years.

Credit to London for the work they have done in recent years (with massive investment from a benefactor) but of all the clubs to start lecturing about how a big city name will see the sport reach new heights, I'm not sure London is a particularly good example!

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Why Manchester? Liverpool, Sheffield, York. They are all in the North of England and without a Super League club.

Just because they are within a 30 minute drive of other Super League clubs doesn’t mean they will be an instant success.

They will face the exact same barriers to success as a city in the Midlands or Wales. They would need to create a fan base from nothing (not impossible, see Toronto, but difficult).

[westlondonfan]

I think having a professional club in London does add value to the sport actually. Almost all clubs rely on a benefactor as far as I can see.

I don’t think that Manchester will add much unless they are successful. That is the test really.

 

 

[Yakstorm]

I don't necessarily think anyone feels they would be an instant success, more that their chances of succeeding would potentially be higher as they are:

- More likely to get away supporters to matches due to proximity to established teams.

- Will generally have a 'derby' or two right from the start which they can use to drive interest, conversation, etc.

- Have a community that is more likely to have come across Rugby League before, which if they can't convert to fanatics, may well join the bandwagon if the team is doing well.

There is also the overall strategic benefits that come from having teams in the key cities in the UK (if you went to a multinational now who was not familiar with the UK, they would only recognise London, Hull and Leeds).

On the Rangers, it's disappointing if certain clubs or the RFL are blocking their entry into the league system.  There is no real evidence that the club would make the existing teams in the region weaker (either with players or supporters) and if they were successful, they would help lift the other clubs anyway.

Provided they satisfy the criteria for L1, that is where they should be allowed to play.

[steve wild]

6 hours ago, Pie tries said:

Swinton should merge with MR and become Manchester Lions. They will never return to a SL standard stadium - nor do they need to. Just need to make a brave decision and go for it.

Play as the Lions in Swinton colours, but move on under the banner of Manchester.

This move would be good for all - including Swinton, Manchester R AND Swinton

Sounds simple doesn’t it? But what would that achieve ? Everybody that I know  connected with Swinton would walk away from the sport - directors, volunteers, & fans. 

So with that in mind, what your’e saying is that we should simply hand over 152 years of history , and our operating license, to Manchester Rangers, on the assumption that it might be a success? That’s not a brave decision , it’s an idiotic decision, and a betrayal of the highest order. 

If Rangers have so much to offer, and they are so well run, with thousands of fans queuing up to support them , then we wish them nothing but good luck in their bid to join the RFL. Any new fans introduced to the game would benefit all of us. But Swinton Lions is, and always will be , a separate entity. Thanks to a the formation of a talented new board, we have ambitious and sustainable plans of our own. 

Yes 26 years outside of our home town, but even against that disadvantage we have just announced record sponsorship , record replica shirt sales, best season ticket sales for 20 years, just launched an academy team, have plans for a reserve team, & have been lauded by the RL press for our outstanding & innovative media output, and praised by Toronto owner David Argyll for the best fans - in terms of numbers and passion - to visit Canada in 2018. We also have plans for a new ground in the Swinton area, and are planning a huge campaign to re-engage the community. And we are doing this against a massive disparity in central funding to clubs in the Championship.

So not a club going backwards , or a drain on RL sources. Far from it.

 

[Hornetto]

On 12/15/2018 at 11:25 AM, The Daddy said:

..... in it's league structure.

I don't see why that shouldn't be Manchester Rangers. They have waited long enough. 

Now what I'm hearing along the grapevine is that Swinton, Oldham, Rochdale and Salford lobbied to prevent Rangers from entering the League structure purely out of self interest. In my view all of these clubs are walking dead, failed entities adding little to no value to the sport. Salford are a pro team that doesn't even have an academy set up FFS. 

As a sport we can do better than this and the picture I'm getting is that some historic clubs just want to keep their place in the league structure without bringing anything that enhances the sport in the UK. History and tradition is being used for emotional blackmail and it's stunting the growth of RL.

On the one hand these clubs staunchly state that they are not in Manchester and refuse to rebrand themselves as such or even embrace that market but they also don't want competition from an actual Manchester club. Unfortunately self interest rules the roost within RL in the uk and that's why we are where we are.

Despite not having a major club Manchester has a rich RL history, plenty of grand finals, premierships and test matches. This history deserves a strong club. 

I read somewhere recently that Robert Elstone visited one of the boutique stadiums on the Ethiad site and stated that it would be the perfect place for a Manchester SL club. If Mr Elstone can pull a few strings to make this happen then we'll done to him. 

 

 

"I'm hearing..." From who?

 

Don't see why a Manchester club would affect us. So produce your evidence, or I'm calling bullsh1t on this one.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

21 minutes ago, steve wild said:

Sounds simple doesn’t it? But what would that achieve ? Everybody that I know  connected with Swinton would walk away from the sport - directors, volunteers, & fans. 

So with that in mind, what your’e saying is that we should simply hand over 152 years of history , and our operating license, to Manchester Rangers, on the assumption that it might be a success? That’s not a brave decision , it’s an idiotic decision, and a betrayal of the highest order. 

If Rangers have so much to offer, and they are so well run, with thousands of fans queuing up to support them , then we wish them nothing but good luck in their bid to join the RFL. Any new fans introduced to the game would benefit all of us. But Swinton Lions is, and always will be , a separate entity. Thanks to a the formation of a talented new board, we have ambitious and sustainable plans of our own. 

Yes 26 years outside of our home town, but even against that disadvantage we have just announced record sponsorship , record replica shirt sales, best season ticket sales for 20 years, just launched an academy team, have plans for a reserve team, & have been lauded by the RL press for our outstanding & innovative media output, and praised by Toronto owner David Argyll for the best fans - in terms of numbers and passion - to visit Canada in 2018. We also have plans for a new ground in the Swinton area, and are planning a huge campaign to re-engage the community. And we are doing this against a massive disparity in central funding to clubs in the Championship.

So not a club going backwards , or a drain on RL sources. Far from it.

 

For someone heading up a Rugby League club you should learn to conduct yourself better in public.

Rather than attacking other Rugby League clubs.

In one statement your saying you have nothing against a Manchester club.

Then you make childish remarks about a club that has achieved a lot in Manchester in a short space of time.

When people put unpaid hours and their own money into getting junior teams created, coach at university and create a high school league.

Grow up.

 

[Pie tries]

1 hour ago, steve wild said:

Sounds simple doesn’t it? But what would that achieve ? Everybody that I know  connected with Swinton would walk away from the sport - directors, volunteers, & fans. 

So with that in mind, what your’e saying is that we should simply hand over 152 years of history , and our operating license, to Manchester Rangers, on the assumption that it might be a success? That’s not a brave decision , it’s an idiotic decision, and a betrayal of the highest order. 

If Rangers have so much to offer, and they are so well run, with thousands of fans queuing up to support them , then we wish them nothing but good luck in their bid to join the RFL. Any new fans introduced to the game would benefit all of us. But Swinton Lions is, and always will be , a separate entity. Thanks to a the formation of a talented new board, we have ambitious and sustainable plans of our own. 

Yes 26 years outside of our home town, but even against that disadvantage we have just announced record sponsorship , record replica shirt sales, best season ticket sales for 20 years, just launched an academy team, have plans for a reserve team, & have been lauded by the RL press for our outstanding & innovative media output, and praised by Toronto owner David Argyll for the best fans - in terms of numbers and passion - to visit Canada in 2018. We also have plans for a new ground in the Swinton area, and are planning a huge campaign to re-engage the community. And we are doing this against a massive disparity in central funding to clubs in the Championship.

So not a club going backwards , or a drain on RL sources. Far from it.

 

Good response and good luck !

please shame Salford by running an u19 and an academy team.

[eal]

Rugby League in the UK seems to be constantly held hostage by small failing clubs with a few hundred fans from the local housing estate. Most of these smaller clubs have nothing to offer beyond the amateur level of the game yet are somehow thinking they should have a say in how the professional game is run.

[kiyan]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, The Daddy said:

..... in it's league structure.

I don't see why that shouldn't be Manchester Rangers. They have waited long enough. 

Now what I'm hearing along the grapevine is that Swinton, Oldham, Rochdale and Salford lobbied to prevent Rangers from entering the League structure purely out of self interest. In my view all of these clubs are walking dead, failed entities adding little to no value to the sport. Salford are a pro team that doesn't even have an academy set up FFS. 

As a sport we can do better than this and the picture I'm getting is that some historic clubs just want to keep their place in the league structure without bringing anything that enhances the sport in the UK. History and tradition is being used for emotional blackmail and it's stunting the growth of RL.

On the one hand these clubs staunchly state that they are not in Manchester and refuse to rebrand themselves as such or even embrace that market but they also don't want competition from an actual Manchester club. Unfortunately self interest rules the roost within RL in the uk and that's why we are where we are.

Despite not having a major club Manchester has a rich RL history, plenty of grand finals, premierships and test matches. This history deserves a strong club. 

I read somewhere recently that Robert Elstone visited one of the boutique stadiums on the Ethiad site and stated that it would be the perfect place for a Manchester SL club. If Mr Elstone can pull a few strings to make this happen then we'll done to him. 

 

 

The Irony of a London Broncos fan commenting on  Salford support, or Swinton lack of a home ground or even a club that does not technically play in Manchester is absurd and somewhat pathetic.

[kiyan]

2 hours ago, eal said:

Rugby League in the UK seems to be constantly held hostage by small failing clubs with a few hundred fans from the local housing estate. Most of these smaller clubs have nothing to offer beyond the amateur level of the game yet are somehow thinking they should have a say in how the professional game is run.

like London Broncos?

[kiyan]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 12:43 PM, John WP Fan said:

This captures for me one of the main differences in sports culture between RL in the UK and North America. UK fans say there ought to be a team in Manchester. I look at the map and think "there are already 6-8 teams there!". I know the history of loyalty to each local team makes it difficult or impossible to establish a new team representing the broader area, but it looks to me as if that prime market has been fragmented in a way that destroys its ability to support a financially strong team.

 

The UK is small in comparison to Canada or Australia.  In either of those the local team is an easy 100 miles drive!

In Greater Manchester ( all on the same public transport day ticket - tram or bus) is Salford, Wigan, Leigh, Warrington, Swinton, Manchester Rangers and for an extra £5 and less than an hour on a bus you have Widnes,  St Helens.

Nearly half of SL is within a 1 hour bus trip!

Canadian and Australian people just do not understand that - they are happy to travel that to get a Drive Thru!

It is a different place, in attitude and scale so people need to stop comparing them like for like, because they are not!