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Brits in the NRL


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3 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think Allora is in full on “Everything English is rubbish” mode for some reason. 

I think it is an interesting list, and don’t see why you can’t have all the English qualified players on a list of English qualified players. I thought the Morrises were born here, but may have that muddled. Certainly, there has been discussion from time to time about their availability (and the other “Aussies” on the list). I thought that Sutton was lined up to play in the Canberra first team, though that might have been in the Wigan papers. I will be interested to see whether how far he goes. I also read that Bateman needed an interpreter. 

The point though is well made. The more English qualified players we have in the NRL system, the better our strength in depth. Anything that deepens the pool. 

Yeap those mighty unbeatable Aussie's soon had a Semi when a certain Fijian born & bred winger started scoring tries for fun in the NRL.

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7 hours ago, MrPosh said:

Victor Radley, whilst a promising player, is miles away from even being spoken about as an England player. He'll need to improve a lot. I suspect he's better aiming for NSW where he has more of a chance of playing.

Radley played the majority of the Roosters' season last year, he won a GF, can play loose, hooker and second row. He will probably play against Wigan and win the WCC. He's 19, if England don't cap him soon then yes, you are right, he may be lost to NSW and Australia. I'd call him up in a heartbeat, he's only going to get better and his versatility is a massive bonus.

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7 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

First of all welcome, BPP - I see your first post has already had a mini baptism of fire! 

I'd probably go along with most however and say heritage players shouldn't really be included when talking about English players in the NRL. Personally I love seeing English SL players moving down to the NRL and more than holding their own because it works two fold in my mind - it not only shows up the quality that England as a national side as to offer but also shows that players who have done all their training and playing career in the northern hemisphere can play at the top level down under, which suggest SL as a comp is getting stronger even if that in the short term mens losing the cream at the top. 

English forwards have proved themselves time and time again - the next stage for me is for the backs to prove they can cut it down there. Whilst he's definitely an Englishman, I have mixed views on whether Widdop is classed as a product of the English game - I'm more inclined to think the NRL made him the player he is. 

Was simply listing English-qualified players. The Aussies and Kiwis have picked players through ancestry in the past and my point was those were the ones we know about. It happens to England teams in RU and cricket too. But who else don't we know about? 

I concur re: Widdop, but who are we to argue? He's put his hand up time and time again and only moved there in his teens, I'd imagine he feels more English. If Gale, Widdop, Williams and Lomax are injured, is Hodkinson not the next cab off the rank? Surely that's better than picking Myler? That was my aim in listing probables and possibles.

Would love to see Radley play for England and I agree it's great we have a "full English" pack playing in the NRL. The real test, as you say, will be getting a backline out here. That appears some way off:

FBs: Lomax (long term deal), Tomkins (tried it and back in SL), Hardaker (who knows if he'll be playing next week!)

Wings: Hall (just moved), McGillvary, Makinson (long term deals)

Centres: Watkins (long term deal), Sarginson (failed), Gildart and Connor (?)

Halves: Gale (long term deal), Williams (?), Myler (no thanks), Widdop (already there)

Could see Williams at Canberra given the ex-Wigan connection and the fact they have some pretty poor halves. Connor could play anywhere and depends what happens at Hull given their bad patch, likewise Gildart has great natural ability, smart footballer but is he a bit too small?

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10 hours ago, Allora said:

Surely a "Tier One Nation" like England does not need heritage players like the Morris Twins already capped by the nation of their birth or lay claim to players like Radley or others through their  Fathers or Grandparents.

Ryan Sutton has not played in the NRL

Andre Savelio was born a Kiwi and  has not played in the NRL

Herbie Farnworth has not played first grade in the NRL and is a fringe player for one of their feeder Clubs.

Just associating these players with England makes England look like another Tonga or Samoa.

 

 

 

Precisely the sort of tosh, jobs worth, pedantic post that stops people, like me, bothering to post.

Yep, Sutton isn't in the NRL.

Whatever. 

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10 hours ago, BallPlayingProp said:

Radley played the majority of the Roosters' season last year, he won a GF, can play loose, hooker and second row. He will probably play against Wigan and win the WCC. He's 19, if England don't cap him soon then yes, you are right, he may be lost to NSW and Australia. I'd call him up in a heartbeat, he's only going to get better and his versatility is a massive bonus.

dont know much about him, whats his background? when did he move over etc?

Edited by RP London
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2 minutes ago, Allora said:

He was born in Sydney.

so qualifies by his father?

we'll see who he puts his hand up for then... i wouldn't be rushing to woo him necessarily but if he is interested then I wouldnt turn someone down that hasnt played for someone else (or said they would do). My kids qualify for Ireland through my wife.. if my son got picked to play for Ireland I couldnt imagine someone playing with more pride etc (he supports them in some sports england in others, been brought up knowing that side etc).. but its very much down to the person.. I wouldnt have the morris twins anywhere near the shirt

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15 hours ago, BallPlayingProp said:

Was simply listing English-qualified players. The Aussies and Kiwis have picked players through ancestry in the past and my point was those were the ones we know about. It happens to England teams in RU and cricket too. But who else don't we know about? 

I concur re: Widdop, but who are we to argue? He's put his hand up time and time again and only moved there in his teens, I'd imagine he feels more English. If Gale, Widdop, Williams and Lomax are injured, is Hodkinson not the next cab off the rank? Surely that's better than picking Myler? That was my aim in listing probables and possibles.

Would love to see Radley play for England and I agree it's great we have a "full English" pack playing in the NRL. The real test, as you say, will be getting a backline out here. That appears some way off:

FBs: Lomax (long term deal), Tomkins (tried it and back in SL), Hardaker (who knows if he'll be playing next week!)

Wings: Hall (just moved), McGillvary, Makinson (long term deals)

Centres: Watkins (long term deal), Sarginson (failed), Gildart and Connor (?)

Halves: Gale (long term deal), Williams (?), Myler (no thanks), Widdop (already there)

Could see Williams at Canberra given the ex-Wigan connection and the fact they have some pretty poor halves. Connor could play anywhere and depends what happens at Hull given their bad patch, likewise Gildart has great natural ability, smart footballer but is he a bit too small?

Agree with a lot of that but England do have a decent backline.  What they lack is depth, but that is slowly coming and we have some decent halves showing real promise.

I can imagine Connor being made an offer he cant refuse to go to the NRL though.

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4 hours ago, RP London said:

so qualifies by his father?

we'll see who he puts his hand up for then... i wouldn't be rushing to woo him necessarily but if he is interested then I wouldnt turn someone down that hasnt played for someone else (or said they would do). My kids qualify for Ireland through my wife.. if my son got picked to play for Ireland I couldnt imagine someone playing with more pride etc (he supports them in some sports england in others, been brought up knowing that side etc).. but its very much down to the person.. I wouldnt have the morris twins anywhere near the shirt

He's not interested so I think we can already strike him off the list.....

https://www.sportingnews.com/au/league/news/victor-radley-nrl-sydney-roosters-nsw-blues-squad-tevita-pangai-jnr/okzc3c2ct7u1vgr679oi387l

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1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

sorted.. ta

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9 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Au contraire...

 

"If I could play for England in this break, and come back and play for NSW I'd do it in a heartbeat"

 

 

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10 hours ago, BallPlayingProp said:

Au contraire...

 

"If I could play for England in this break, and come back and play for NSW I'd do it in a heartbeat"

 

 

All I can hear is him making abundantly clear he wants to play for NSW and good on him for that. He is a best speaking hypothetically - certainly no commitment to play for England in future. The Declan Rice of RL this kid. 

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On 2/15/2019 at 8:41 AM, hunsletgreenandgold said:

All I can hear is him making abundantly clear he wants to play for NSW and good on him for that. He is a best speaking hypothetically - certainly no commitment to play for England in future. The Declan Rice of RL this kid. 

Because NSW/Origin is a State competition - one that he lives in - and England is a nationality. If I was him (born to an English father) I would be exactly the same. It is the rules that are ridiculous, even more so now Australia hardly ever give a #### about playing internationals. 

Edited by Scubby
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22 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Because NSW/Origin is a State competition - one that he lives in - and England is a nationality. If I was him (born to an English father) I would be exactly the same. It is the rules that are ridiculous, even more so now Australia hardly ever give a #### about playing internationals. 

Maybe its because he was born in Australia and has obviously been brought up as an Australian with an Australian Mother.

Just because his Father has a thick Yorkshire accent does not mean he should want to play for England, often its a fall back position should he not make SOO and the Kangaroos squads.

Its been seen before a few times.

 

Edited by Allora
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Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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36 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Because NSW/Origin is a State competition - one that he lives in - and England is a nationality. If I was him (born to an English father) I would be exactly the same. It is the rules that are ridiculous, even more so now Australia hardly ever give a #### about playing internationals. 

No but you're missing my point - his priority is 100% geared towards Origin and he's happy to forgo any international desires he may have to do that. So whilst I agree the rules are the problem, Radley is making clear where he wants to play rep footie and knows the consequences of that. If the rules change maybe he'll get to do both but i'm under no illusions that if/when it comes to it he'll always pick the blues over the three lions

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15 minutes ago, Allora said:

Maybe its because he was born in Australia and has obviously been brought up as an Australian with an Australian Mother.

Just because his Father has a thick Yorkshire accent does not mean he should want to play for England, often its a fall back position should he not make SOO and the Kangaroos squads.

Its been seen before a few times.

 

 

4 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

No but you're missing my point - his priority is 100% geared towards Origin and he's happy to forgo any international desires he may have to do that. So whilst I agree the rules are the problem, Radley is making clear where he wants to play rep footie and knows the consequences of that. If the rules change maybe he'll get to do both but i'm under no illusions that if/when it comes to it he'll always pick the blues over the three lions

But England haven't got another bloody game planned for 2 years? If is a total #### up. The only certainty is that Origin will run around 3 times a year every year and will be massive. If I were in the kid's shoes that is how I would see it. 

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1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

If the rules change maybe he'll get to do both but i'm under no illusions that if/when it comes to it he'll always pick the blues over the three lions

He can do both if he's good enough (play Origin and Internationals). NSW and the Kangaroos. He's Australian. End of conversation.

Even if the rules were changed he would only be allowed to play for one country. We are all assuming a born and bred aussie would shun playing for Australia just to represent his Dads country of birth. Highly doubtful.

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2 hours ago, AB90 said:

He can do both if he's good enough (play Origin and Internationals). NSW and the Kangaroos. He's Australian. End of conversation.

Even if the rules were changed he would only be allowed to play for one country. We are all assuming a born and bred aussie would shun playing for Australia just to represent his Dads country of birth. Highly doubtful.

Identity and nationality could be more complicated than just saying he is Australian.  George and Sam Burgess have both had kids in Australia, in about 18 years should we expect all of the Burgess kids to turn out for Australia?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Identity and nationality could be more complicated than just saying he is Australian.  George and Sam Burgess have both had kids in Australia, in about 18 years should we expect all of the Burgess kids to turn out for Australia? 

You have a valid point. But im 99% sure that if George and Sam live in Sydney for the rest of their lives, therefore their kids are born and bred Aussies (with an aussie mother) they would naturally identify as far more Australian than English.

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6 minutes ago, AB90 said:

You have a valid point. But im 99% sure that if George and Sam live in Sydney for the rest of their lives, therefore their kids are born and bred Aussies (with an aussie mother) they would naturally identify as far more Australian than English.

Maybe they would we don’t know but you can’t just dismiss the possibility they might want to follow in their dads footsteps and play for England. 

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3 minutes ago, AB90 said:

You have a valid point. But im 99% sure that if George and Sam live in Sydney for the rest of their lives, therefore their kids are born and bred Aussies (with an aussie mother) they would naturally identify as far more Australian than English.

Yes, I think you are right.  If the Burgess babies grow up in Australia then I expect they will 'feel' more Australian than English.  But who knows, (if they play sport at all) they may decide to represent England as a homage to their dads and indeed their grandad Mark who was a Rugby League player and would no doubt be remembered by the whole family.

In some ways, being away from a country could heightens a sense of patriotism and the Burgess kids may have it drilled into them from a young age with English Rugby jerseys, caps and medals (we hope) around the house that they will be English League players.

I would be ok with whichever choice the kids make.  My daughter is born and is being raised in the UK but she has an Italian mother and a very strong connection to the Italian side of the family.  I would expect her to identify as both English and Italian in equal measure.

This is all ridiculous speculation of course but my point is that identity is a very personal thing and the factual stuff like place of birth is the tip of the iceberg.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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