Independent Group

[Evil Homer]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

The thing I think you ignore, is the atmosphere around the Labour party and the perceived culture of bullying. Whether you agree with it or not, the Labour party today is vastly different than that of around 1987-2015.

If you are more Blairite than Corbynite, you're not just out of favour you're finding yourself not welcome in the party. I don't think you can state that they are being hysterical when you don't know what they experience. Corbyn has potentially moved the Labour party leftwards permanently; there's nothing particularly wrong with this but I can understand how people who are Labour MPs no longer want to be in the party.

Then there is of course the anti-semitism issue and Labour's perceived inability to deal with it. This might be nothing to you, but maybe if you were facing regular abuse about it you might feel differently. 

I haven't particularly seen any bullying or abuse towards 'Blairites', in fact the vitriol seems to have been almost entirely in the other direction although I'm not denying that may not be the case at Labour grassroots level, again I'm not a Labour member so wouldn't know. To me though there seem to be a lot of people causing problems, behaving unreasonably or in bad faith and then claiming they are being bullied or pushed out as a result, presumably due to historical grudges against certain individuals. Again, the likes of Umunna don't seem to have made any attempt to work with the party leadership or membership and in fact have actively looked to attack and undermine them at every opportunity, is there any surprise then that they have been ostracized by both as a result? If I was leader and people had behaved in the way they have been for the past two years I wouldn't have tolerated it at all, certainly far less than Corbyn has.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

I haven't particularly seen any bullying or abuse towards 'Blairites', in fact the vitriol seems to have been almost entirely in the other direction although I'm not denying that may not be the case at Labour grassroots level, again I'm not a Labour member so wouldn't know. To me though there seem to be a lot of people causing problems, behaving unreasonably or in bad faith and then claiming they are being bullied or pushed out as a result, presumably due to historical grudges against certain individuals. Again, the likes of Umunna don't seem to have made any attempt to work with the party leadership or membership and in fact have actively looked to attack and undermine them at every opportunity, is there any surprise then that they have been ostracized by both as a result? If I was leader and people had behaved in the way they have been for the past two years I wouldn't have tolerated it at all, certainly far less than Corbyn has.

How many years was Jeremy ' tolerated ' for ?

[Griff9of13]

4 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

haven't particularly seen any bullying or abuse towards 'Blairites', in fact the vitriol seems to have been almost entirely in the other direction 

Is that supposed to be some sort of a joke? You should take a look at some of the responses I've had on twitter in reply to some very minor criticism of the dear leader and his cabal. You most certainly couldn't reproduce them on here without incurring an instant ban.

[Evil Homer]

50 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Is that supposed to be some sort of a joke? You should take a look at some of the responses I've had on twitter in reply to some very minor criticism of the dear leader and his cabal. You most certainly couldn't reproduce them on here without incurring an instant ban.

I'm really sorry to hear that someone was mean to you on twitter. Maybe if you didn't use phrases like "the dear leader and his cabal" people would be nicer to you.

[Evil Homer]

47 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

How many years was Jeremy ' tolerated ' for ?

This unfortunately appears to be the crux of the issue for many and makes them totally incapable of accepting him as leader, to the point where they would rather destroy their own party than see it succeed with him at the helm. Corbyn voted against the government on certain issues but I'm not sure he ever attempted to purposely sabotage and subvert his own party in the way the rebels have been doing for years, but I might be wrong. The bigger issue being that these people seem to be hell-bent on pursuing an approach which spectacularly failed in 2010 and 2015 and is not wanted by the vast majority of the membership.

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

This unfortunately appears to be the crux of the issue for many and makes them totally incapable of accepting him as leader, to the point where they would rather destroy their own party than see it succeed with him at the helm. Corbyn voted against the government on certain issues but I'm not sure he ever attempted to purposely sabotage and subvert his own party in the way the rebels have been doing for years, but I might be wrong. The bigger issue being that these people seem to be hell-bent on pursuing an approach which spectacularly failed in 2010 and 2015 and is not wanted by the vast majority of the membership.

Explain to me exactly what mr Corbyn has done that will impress me enough to vote for him ?

To my part , he is a communist , disloyal to the labour party for decades , is a closet brexiteer but is happy to let anybody and everybody into the country , has consorted with various ' dodgy ' groups around the globe , wants to nationalise everything [ I actually agree on a couple ] , is very London centric , and will get played by the unions if he ever actually gets into a position of power , so when I see him requesting loyalty from his members . it just doesnt work

And yes the ' membership ' might well be bigger than it ever has been and supports him , but do the actual voters who's age is more than 22 support him ?

[Evil Homer]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Explain to me exactly what mr Corbyn has done that will impress me enough to vote for him ?

To my part , he is a communist , disloyal to the labour party for decades , is a closet brexiteer but is happy to let anybody and everybody into the country , has consorted with various ' dodgy ' groups around the globe , wants to nationalise everything [ I actually agree on a couple ] , is very London centric , and will get played by the unions if he ever actually gets into a position of power , so when I see him requesting loyalty from his members . it just doesnt work

And yes the ' membership ' might well be bigger than it ever has been and supports him , but do the actual voters who's age is more than 22 support him ?

For the umpteenth time on this forum, I am not a Labour spokesman or even a Labour member, I'm not affiliated with the Labour party in any way and I'm not trying to win your vote. I don't care who you vote for. If you believe that stuff about Corbyn then fine. I prefer to judge people on their actions rather than vague concepts and speculation, and Corbyn hasn't really done anything during his time as leader that I particularly disagree with yet. And if we're honest I suspect you would probably be struggling to find something too, but I might be wrong. You'd be one of the first on this forum though if you could actually name something.

As for whether people will vote for him, I don't know and neither does anyone else. Our only evidence so far is that he did a lot better than expected last time.

[Saintslass]

10 hours ago, ckn said:

She threw the hard question and is really going up in my opinion by the caller!  I wasn't a fan of hers before, gob on a stick, but this is good stuff.

I think it's interesting that those of you on the left of politics find Soubry so inspiring.  You really shouldn't, if she was truly a conservative.  You should be disagreeing with her.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Evil Homer said:

For the umpteenth time on this forum, I am not a Labour spokesman or even a Labour member, I'm not affiliated with the Labour party in any way and I'm not trying to win your vote. I don't care who you vote for. If you believe that stuff about Corbyn then fine. I prefer to judge people on their actions rather than vague concepts and speculation, and Corbyn hasn't really done anything during his time as leader that I particularly disagree with yet. And if we're honest I suspect you would probably be struggling to find something too, but I might be wrong. You'd be one of the first on this forum though if you could actually name something.

As for whether people will vote for him, I don't know and neither does anyone else. Our only evidence so far is that he did a lot better than expected last time.

He hasnt done anything to disagree with , he hasnt done anything , he must have that many splinters in his backside I'm surprised he can sit down , personally I think he's actually terrified at the prospect of actually getting the ' big ' job

Anyway , he has his own thread , this thread is about those people of principle , that actualy have left the labour party and are potentially ending their political careers for their beliefs , something Mr Corbyn didnt do for decades

[Evil Homer]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

He hasnt done anything to disagree with , he hasnt done anything , he must have that many splinters in his backside I'm surprised he can sit down , personally I think he's actually terrified at the prospect of actually getting the ' big ' job

Anyway , he has his own thread , this thread is about those people of principle , that actualy have left the labour party and are potentially ending their political careers for their beliefs , something Mr Corbyn didnt do for decades

Well clearly it was the right decision for him because he's now in charge and, like it or not, is in a position where he could potentially become Prime Minister. Whereas the defectors now never will be, and will not even be in a position to have any influence at all. So I'm not really sure why you would applaud them for shooting themselves in the foot.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I think it's interesting that those of you on the left of politics find Soubry so inspiring.  You really shouldn't, if she was truly a conservative.  You should be disagreeing with her.

Not the biggest fan of Soubry's idea's , but I do admire her honesty in not always being PC in her manner , she says it like it is , it was funny when those idiots were calling her a ' Nazi ' , given they were the more right wingers , not funny the guantlet she had to run afterwards , but if it had got nasty , my money would have been on her to come out on top

[Saintslass]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Not the biggest fan of Soubry's idea's , but I do admire her honesty in not always being PC in her manner , she says it like it is , it was funny when those idiots were calling her a ' Nazi ' , given they were the more right wingers , not funny the guantlet she had to run afterwards , but if it had got nasty , my money would have been on her to come out on top

She's done her own name calling.  Everything she accuses others of doing she has done herself.  She accuses the ERG of being fundamentalist yet she is a fundamentalist remainer.  At least the ERG members haven't left the party.  She is so fundamentalist she has effectively returned to the LibDems.  (Thank goodness!)

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Evil Homer said:

Well clearly it was the right decision for him because he's now in charge and, like it or not, is in a position where he could potentially become Prime Minister. Whereas the defectors now never will be, and will not even be in a position to have any influence at all. So I'm not really sure why you would applaud them for shooting themselves in the foot.

The word ' principle ' is strange to you ? , Jeremy is a hypocrit of the highest order , if he wants a communist state , then join the communist party

But what exactly is he in charge of ? a mostly 3rd/4th choice shadow cabinet that will never be elected , a party of protest

Anyway as I said , this is not his thread

[ckn]

14 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I think it's interesting that those of you on the left of politics find Soubry so inspiring.  You really shouldn't, if she was truly a conservative.  You should be disagreeing with her.

Why? It’d be a sad life if it were that black and white. I’ve agreed on this forum with the individual policies and actions of many Tory politicians over the years. See my post from about 9am today and you’ll see why I accept that there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with Tory values. 

[Evil Homer]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The word ' principle ' is strange to you ? , Jeremy is a hypocrit of the highest order , if he wants a communist state , then join the communist party

But what exactly is he in charge of ? a mostly 3rd/4th choice shadow cabinet that will never be elected , a party of protest

Anyway as I said , this is not his thread

There's no principle in being a loser. These people could've stood up for their beliefs within the party rather than quitting and ultimately achieving nothing. Besides, these people aren't standing up for their beliefs, most of them can't even articulate what they stand for or what their beliefs are. And it's only a third choice cabinet and 'party of protest' because everyone else quit in protest! The likes of Umunna and Berger were in the shadow cabinet FFS. The fact that they now aren't in the party at all is on them.

If they had stuck it out, worked together in order to try and maintain their political ground within the party and have their voices heard while also respecting the wishes of the membership rather than constantly attacking and trying to overthrow the leadership and then publicly sabotaging and subverting their party at every opportunity then things might have worked out better for them.

[Just Browny]

4 minutes ago, ckn said:

Why? It’d be a sad life if it were that black and white. I’ve agreed on this forum with the individual policies and actions of many Tory politicians over the years. See my post from about 9am today and you’ll see why I accept that there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with Tory values. 

Saintslass has made it clear for several years now that she sees politics like supporting a rugby team - you back your team, whatever happens.

[ckn]

3 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Saintslass has made it clear for several years now that she sees politics like supporting a rugby team - you back your team, whatever happens.

Even then, I’d support Wigan on the condition that it’s an Aussie team they’re playing. 

If it came to supporting a core Conservative against a Kipper or ERG type then I’d support the core Tory every time. 

[Phil]

50 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Explain to me exactly what mr Corbyn has done that will impress me enough to vote for him ?

To my part , he is a communist , disloyal to the labour party for decades , is a closet brexiteer 

Oh my god a communist I don’t think you’d recognise a communist if one poked you in your eye

Hes been an open brexiter for years 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

Oh my god a communist I don’t think you’d recognise a communist if one poked you in your eye

Hes been an open brexiter for years

Thats my point , he's been Brexit for years , UNTIL its actually on the cards , then he finds a fence to sit on , he's terrified of doing anything , he'd make a decent ' goody goody ' social worker , one of those so well paroded by Chris Barrie in Red Dwarf , " well yes we'll take that on board "

[Saintslass]

8 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Saintslass has made it clear for several years now that she sees politics like supporting a rugby team - you back your team, whatever happens.

You must have me on ignore because only a couple of days ago on the other thread I said that May is doing my head in, and that was just the most recent obvious statement of disapproval that I made about her.  Oh, and you clearly missed my less than complimentary comment about Anna Soubry.  That's just two examples of how wrong your post is.

[Saintslass]

8 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Thats my point , he's been Brexit for years , UNTIL its actually on the cards , then he finds a fence to sit on , he's terrified of doing anything , he'd make a decent ' goody goody ' social worker , one of those so well paroded by Chris Barrie in Red Dwarf , " well yes we'll take that on board "

I don't think he's terrified at all.  This is a bloke who has voted against his own party hundreds of times.  He's just crafty.

[gingerjon]

45 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

You must have me on ignore because only a couple of days ago on the other thread I said that May is doing my head in, and that was just the most recent obvious statement of disapproval that I made about her.  Oh, and you clearly missed my less than complimentary comment about Anna Soubry.  That's just two examples of how wrong your post is.

So, if you lived in the UK parliamentary constituency of Maidenhead, who would you vote for?

[Shadow]

57 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

You must have me on ignore because only a couple of days ago on the other thread I said that May is doing my head in, and that was just the most recent obvious statement of disapproval that I made about her.  Oh, and you clearly missed my less than complimentary comment about Anna Soubry.  That's just two examples of how wrong your post is.

And yet you’ve not once been able to give an example of a Tory policy you disagree with.

[ckn]

 

[ckn]

As an aside, this means the new Group has more MPs than the Lib Dems, if they established as a Party then they'd get precedence over them in the Commons.