Independent Group

[Maximus Decimus]

10 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

I couldn't resist!

Thanks for this. It shows that Brexiters actually do care what people used to say!

[ckn]

19 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Thanks for this. It shows that Brexiters actually do care what people used to say!

But only if it's not Saint Nigel or one of his fluffers.

[Private Baldrick]

33 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Thanks for this. It shows that Brexiters actually do care what people used to say!

Indeed we do, especially when people said we would leave and here we are nearly 3 years later...…………….

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, Private Baldrick said:

Indeed we do, especially when people said we would leave and here we are nearly 3 years later...…………….

How about the things that the leavers said pre-referendum, you seem much less concerned about those.

[Shadow]

2 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

I couldn't resist!

Have the Brexiteers started caring about lies now?

Here's one to start with

[Shadow]

2 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

I couldn't resist!

How about

[Shadow]

2 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

I couldn't resist!

They keep coming 

[Shadow]

Can I just ask Balders how well he thinks his point is being made?

[Maximus Decimus]

40 minutes ago, Shadow said:

They keep coming 

This was just factually untrue, Turkey are actually already in the EU. After all, they're in the customs union and if we stay in the customs union that means we're staying in the EU.

Logic.

[Private Baldrick]

11 hours ago, Shadow said:

Have the Brexiteers started caring about lies now?

Here's one to start with

Do we have to go through the arguments of this one again?

[Private Baldrick]

11 hours ago, Shadow said:

How about

He says it 'should' be, not 'will' be. Starting at the point at which we are after 40 years of exactly the same standards etc it should be easy, unless of course one side wants to make it difficult and refuse to discuss it until they have squeezed the £39 billion from us.

[Private Baldrick]

11 hours ago, Shadow said:

They keep coming 

I have edited this reply as I now can see the picture.

I am not sure on this one as one poster has already said they are in the EU? 

[Maximus Decimus]

2 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

He says it 'should' be, not 'will' be. Starting at the point at which we are after 40 years of exactly the same standards etc it should be easy, unless of course one side wants to make it difficult and refuse to discuss it until they have squeezed the £39 billion from us.

He said should be and remainers said it won't be. 

Which has transpired? 

[Private Baldrick]

46 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

He said should be and remainers said it won't be. 

Which has transpired? 

Nothing because the EU will not discuss our future relationship until the Withdrawal Agreement is signed off in Parliament. 

[Maximus Decimus]

6 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

Nothing because the EU will not discuss our future relationship until the Withdrawal Agreement is signed off in Parliament. 

This was something many of us factored in when making our decisions. I repeatedly made the following two points prior to the referendum:

a) we didn't have the upper hand in negotiations and b) it wasn't in the EUs interests to give us a great deal or make it easy for us.

Those Brexiters heavily implying it would be easy knew at least one of these and mislead the public about it. As I've said on the main thread, who knows how many people were persuaded because they believed that any economic effect would be temporary and we'd essentially end up with as good a deal as we have now. 

[Saintslass]

27 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

a) we didn't have the upper hand in negotiations and b) it wasn't in the EUs interests to give us a great deal or make it easy for us.

a) We had a couple of hands, neither of which we played: the money and no deal.  Notice the lengths to which the EU went to avoid no deal during the last week prior to 29 March.  They even had a huddle in the early hours of the morning to agree to an extension.  David Davies said at the outset that the EU play until the final whistle - the last minute of the last hour of the last day.  If we'd had proper negotiators with balls we could have secured something much more like a Brexit than the sham May conceded.  The money was given away even faster than the turn tail on no deal.

b) Leavers knew that already.  Why do you think leavers voted to leave?  Remainers meanwhile were calling the EU our fwends and bruvvers.  Leavers knew them to be our competitors and were fully aware of the likelihood that the EU would make things difficult.

As for the oft-quoted Davies on the free trade deal - well of course it should be easy.  We start from the same point.  No other trade deal has been done between the EU and another country where the EU and the other country began from the same point.  However, we conceded on the timetable almost as fast as on the money and so we lost the ability to even begin negotiating the trade deal until the withdrawal agreement was sorted.  Davies wanted to fight for the right to negotiate both simultaneously.  May/Robbins conceded.

[distantdog]

23 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

 

b) Leavers knew that already.  Why do you think leavers voted to leave?  Remainers meanwhile were calling the EU our fwends and bruvvers.  Leavers knew them to be our competitors and were fully aware of the likelihood that the EU would make things difficult.

 

Pathetic and childish.

Before we chose to leave them, they were our neighbours and co-workers. When we chose to leave them, we made them competitors. From memory, I do believe they were even referred to   as enemies. Leavers set the tone of the discussion and any future relationship. 

[Saintslass]

21 minutes ago, distantdog said:

Pathetic and childish.

Ah, the much beloved personal insult.  No longer even the last resort when it comes to discourse from remainers.

[Pen-Y-Bont Crusader]

Ok.

So remainers see others as their equals.

Maybe leavers don’t.

Judge for yourself where that leaves you.

[M j M]

22 minutes ago, distantdog said:

Pathetic and childish.

Before we chose to leave them, they were our neighbours and co-workers. When we chose to leave them, we made them competitors. From memory, I do believe they were even referred to   as enemies. Leavers set the tone of the discussion and any future relationship.  

The obsessive delusional harking back to wartime terminology is utterly pathetic and very terrifying. They are our neighbours and our friends - peaceful, tolerant neighbours and friends who have bent over backwards to accommodate our wanting to be special members of the EU for decades. The nationalist rhetoric of many Brexiteers all too often reveals their real, deeply unpleasant, reasons.

[M j M]

6 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Ah, the much beloved personal insult.  No longer even the last resort when it comes to discourse from remainers.

Brexiteers are also obsessed, absolutely obsessed, with framing themselves as victims.

[Shadow]

1 hour ago, Saintslass said:

a) We had a couple of hands, neither of which we played: the money and no deal.  Notice the lengths to which the EU went to avoid no deal during the last week prior to 29 March.  They even had a huddle in the early hours of the morning to agree to an extension.  David Davies said at the outset that the EU play until the final whistle - the last minute of the last hour of the last day.  If we'd had proper negotiators with balls we could have secured something much more like a Brexit than the sham May conceded.  The money was given away even faster than the turn tail on no deal.

b) Leavers knew that already.  Why do you think leavers voted to leave?  Remainers meanwhile were calling the EU our fwends and bruvvers.  Leavers knew them to be our competitors and were fully aware of the likelihood that the EU would make things difficult.

As for the oft-quoted Davies on the free trade deal - well of course it should be easy.  We start from the same point.  No other trade deal has been done between the EU and another country where the EU and the other country began from the same point.  However, we conceded on the timetable almost as fast as on the money and so we lost the ability to even begin negotiating the trade deal until the withdrawal agreement was sorted.  Davies wanted to fight for the right to negotiate both simultaneously.  May/Robbins conceded.

No deal was never a negotiating position. How does it create anything other than inconvenience for the EU and carnage for us?

Prosecco and BMWs? 

[Saintslass]

1 hour ago, Shadow said:

No deal was never a negotiating position. How does it create anything other than inconvenience for the EU and carnage for us?

Prosecco and BMWs? 

So you think telling the other side in a negotiation that you will never be prepared to pull out no matter what is offered is a sound basis upon which to negotiate?  If you do then I do hope you aren't involved in important negotiations!

[Saintslass]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

Brexiteers are also obsessed, absolutely obsessed, with framing themselves as victims.

I was writing as a member of this forum.  Why are you obsessed with Brexiteers?  

[M j M]

1 minute ago, Saintslass said:

I was writing as a member of this forum.  Why are you obsessed with Brexiteers?  

Because their careless (putting it politely), actions are bringing this country to its knees. And they will never, ever, ever accept the consequences. It will seemingly always be someone else's fault and they will seemingly always be the victims whilst smearing others for caring too much, knowing too much or empathising too much.