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11 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

No I was talking about a technicality and saying that I have no problem with the IG using a technicality to get an advantage in a system that massively hinders them. 

There are all sorts of reasons why people vote the way they do and policies are only one reason, one that I would suggest is far smaller than others. For an awful lot of people I suspect that voting comes down to who they trust more and would prefer to be in charge. This inevitably aligns with political ideology but not necessarily any more specific than left/right.

People also vote for shallower reasons such as image and because they treat it like football support. 

The IG has outlined that it will take the centre ground and if you're that way inclined I see nothing wrong with suggesting that you would vote for a new party occupying that ground in preference of a far left or a far right party. Personalities matter also, Umunna was once a frontrunner to be Labour leader and is a well known figure. 

Agreed, a lot of people tend to vote for very trivial or spurious reasons and often without using their brain. That doesn't make claiming they would vote for a non-party with no leader, no policies, no candidates, no unifying ideology and no official stance on any issue any less stupid though.

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11 minutes ago, Evil Homer said:

Agreed, a lot of people tend to vote for very trivial or spurious reasons and often without using their brain. That doesn't make claiming they would vote for a non-party with no leader, no policies, no candidates, no unifying ideology and no official stance on any issue any less stupid though.

17.4m people voted for brexit for the very (lack of) reasons you list.

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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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20 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

17.4m people voted for brexit for the very (lack of) reasons you list.

Wow.  You're incredible.  You can read the minds of 17.4m people!  Astonishment is mine.

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3 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Wow.  You're incredible.  You can read the minds of 17.4m people!  Astonishment is mine.

It would be daft to think they all had the same reasons and understanding of Brexit. 

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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12 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

Wow.  You're incredible.  You can read the minds of 17.4m people!  Astonishment is mine.

Nothing of the sort. But fact is that there was nothing tangible to vote for; no definition of what brexit should be. No legal framework. No implementation plan. No clearly defined objective to achieve. No timeframe in which to achieve it. Nothing.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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12 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It would be daft to think they all had the same reasons and understanding of Brexit. 

Daft, you are putting it very mildly.

Ever the diplomat.


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2 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

Nothing of the sort. But fact is that there was nothing tangible to vote for; no definition of what brexit should be. No legal framework. No implementation plan. No clearly defined objective to achieve. No timeframe in which to achieve it. Nothing.

I thought this was a genuinely interesting article. I didn't realise that most constituencies with over 25% of a South Asian population voted to leave. 

Can I also tentatively offer the opinion that the article also clearly debunks the myth perpetually perpetuated here that poor Labour Voters want to remain. ☺

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

 

Edited by Niels
Tried to be polite
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7 hours ago, Niels said:

I thought this was a genuinely interesting article. I didn't realise that most constituencies with over 25% of a South Asian population voted to leave. 

Can I also tentatively offer the opinion that the article also clearly debunks the myth perpetually perpetuated here that poor Labour Voters want to remain. ☺

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

 

Having read the article it makes no mention of political affiliation or voting. You're making stuff up. Again.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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3 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

Having read the article it makes no mention of political affiliation or voting. You're making stuff up. Again.

It states poorer white areas including council estates voted leave. 

I think we can safely assume that they are more likely to be Labour Voters.

In your previous post you are clear that leave voters should been looking further than what was on the ballot paper, and consider legal framework etc. Therefore I think we can recognise what is implicit in the article here. We cant have it both ways ☺

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8 minutes ago, Niels said:

It states poorer white areas including council estates voted leave. 

I think we can safely assume that they are more likely to be Labour Voters.

In your previous post you are clear that leave voters should been looking further than what was on the ballot paper, and consider legal framework etc. Therefore I think we can recognise what is implicit in the article here. We cant have it both ways ☺

Lots of " poor white areas " appear not to bother voting at all most of the time. The Brexit vote was pretty exceptional.

If they do there's no guarantee that they'll vote Labour as most Labour Party canvassers will tell you.

Edited by Tyrone Shoelaces

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32 minutes ago, Niels said:

It states poorer white areas including council estates voted leave. 

I think we can safely assume that they are more likely to be Labour Voters.

In your previous post you are clear that leave voters should been looking further than what was on the ballot paper, and consider legal framework etc. Therefore I think we can recognise what is implicit in the article here. We cant have it both ways ☺

No we can't. Plenty of the group you name vote nothing but Tory. If that was remotely true we would never have had a single Tory government since the introduction of the universal franchise in 1928.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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12 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

No we can't. Plenty of the group you name vote nothing but Tory. If that was remotely true we would never have had a single Tory government since the introduction of the universal franchise in 1928.

I understand your point.

I won't comment further as I've just realised the thread is about the Independent Party not Brexit. I don't want to take it any further off topic. ☺

 

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

It states poorer white areas including council estates voted leave. 

I think we can safely assume that they are more likely to be Labour Voters.

Ever been to Essex?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Just now, gingerjon said:

Ever been to Essex?

No.

I am basing my interpretations from personal experience of people at food banks and social groups in the North.

They tell me they vote Labour and most voted Brexit.

They are always looking for volunteers if people want to ask them directly ☺

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Just now, Niels said:

They are always looking for volunteers if people want to ask them directly ☺

I thought you were basing it on the LSE link?

I'm pleased you're an active volunteer at your local food bank.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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13 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I thought you were basing it on the LSE link?

I'm pleased you're an active volunteer at your local food bank.

My experience just confirms what I read in the article. 

Thank you very much. It is attached to a local community centre. I originally went with my daughter as she started helping as part of her study course. 

Edited by Niels
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Openly admitting they are funded by the 'friends of Israel'  main funder and yet people who speak up against this are ''antisemitic''....So let's get this right....A former Israeli Embassy Frontman and the main funder of the FOI group, is providing funding for the supposed 'Independent Group' and the rest of us are supposed to see this as what exactly? We are not supposed to question the agendas at play here? We are supposed to shut our mouths and allow all this to proceed unchallenged?


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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1 hour ago, Phil said:

Openly admitting they are funded by the 'friends of Israel'  main funder and yet people who speak up against this are ''antisemitic''....So let's get this right....A former Israeli Embassy Frontman and the main funder of the FOI group, is providing funding for the supposed 'Independent Group' and the rest of us are supposed to see this as what exactly? We are not supposed to question the agendas at play here? We are supposed to shut our mouths and allow all this to proceed unchallenged?

Where did they “admit” that?  I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just haven’t seen it and it’d be interesting to see that from them.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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2 minutes ago, ckn said:

Where did they “admit” that?  I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just haven’t seen it and it’d be interesting to see that from them.

Apparently the report has been withdrawn, so I’ll also withdraw my post 


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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9 hours ago, ckn said:

Where did they “admit” that?  I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just haven’t seen it and it’d be interesting to see that from them.

It looks as though it came from here but was withdrawn when it quickly became obvious that it was bull poo invented as a smear. Because, in the warped minds of some on the left of the Labour party there can be no worse crime than having connections with Israel. 

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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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35 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

They have started a petition to scrap the benefit freeze headed it looks by Heidi Allen

Good points made in the video

https://www.theindependent.group/petition/end-the-benefits-freeze

 

But they're supposed to be, according to the Corbynites, "neo liberals", how dare they act to the benefit of people in need.

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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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4 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

But they're supposed to be, according to the Corbynites, "neo liberals", how dare they act to the benefit of people in need.

What did I tell you?

:fie:

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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Well they’re registering as a political party called Change Uk -The Independent Group. Heidi Allen will be leader until an autumn conference. 

In the unlikely even EU elections will be held they plan on fielding candidates. 

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I’m never sure about Heidi Allen . She’s great at PR and presenting a certain image but her voting record at times was at odds with things she said , and she did follow the party line . I’ve got the public sector pay cap in mind for one when she was very vociferous until push came to shove I believe 

Edited by DavidM

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