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Robin Evans

Widnes

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10 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

I can't help but agree with some of your points. Particularly over recent years, the rule changes have increasingly relied upon interpretation, which gives the ref's far too much influence on results imo. It almost seems like the rules are designed to be as ambiguous as possible and constantly changing, that anyone new to the game would find it very difficult to understand.

To my mind, most of the rule changes have not really improved things either, the game would be much easier for none fans to get in to if we went back to what it was, a simple, easy game to understand, with very black and white rules that didn't require interpretation or a clown on sky to explain why the ref made the correct decision, even when the whole of the audience knows it was wrong.

I think two specific changes in the game have made it much harder to police, and neither of those are specifically caused by the rules.

The first is the advent and spread of dummy runners, and the subsequent rise in contentious obstruction calls. There are so many grey areas when there is contact between the dummy runner and the defender and I don't think there's an easy way to rewrite the rule book to get rid of those grey areas.

The second is the increase in "wrestling" techniques in the tackle in a bid to win the overall collision and buy more time. This in turn means there are more players around the ball carrier, making it harder for the officials to see everything that's going on for the ref, and players have become more adept at just giving the ball a slight nudge to loosen it from the ball-carrier's grip - the difference between a loose carry and a strip has become quite blurred, especially with defenders now coached to keep their hands on the ball/ballcarrier's hands for as long as they can get away with to delay a quick PTB. Again, it's hard to know what they could do in terms of changing the rules to improve this situation.

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1 hour ago, RobLambert said:

An contaire.  I only didn't laugh out loud because I was afraid if I did my head would have fallen off.....

I thank God I wore my corset, because I think my sides have split.

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16 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

The second is the increase in "wrestling" techniques in the tackle in a bid to win the overall collision and buy more time. This in turn means there are more players around the ball carrier, making it harder for the officials to see everything that's going on for the ref, and players have become more adept at just giving the ball a slight nudge to loosen it from the ball-carrier's grip - the difference between a loose carry and a strip has become quite blurred, especially with defenders now coached to keep their hands on the ball/ballcarrier's hands for as long as they can get away with to delay a quick PTB. Again, it's hard to know what they could do in terms of changing the rules to improve this situation.

I think this is the most annoying call that the referees have to give.  The difference between a knock on or a penalty to the attacking team is huge.  So often we see the ball come out and the ref doesn't know what has happened (to be fair neither do we usually). So after consulting the touch judge unsuccessfully he has a think then pulls a decision out of the air.  What is the answer ? - simple - if in doubt the ref should be given the option of handing the ball back to the attacking team and allowing them to play on.  I think in general both fans and players would appreciate more of an 'if in doubt play on' approach from referees rather than stopping play for every single thing that doesn't look quite right. I always think that the decisions that infuriate supporters the most are those where the ref spots something that didn't happen rather than allowing something that's a bit dodgy.

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1 hour ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

I think two specific changes in the game have made it much harder to police, and neither of those are specifically caused by the rules.

The first is the advent and spread of dummy runners, and the subsequent rise in contentious obstruction calls. There are so many grey areas when there is contact between the dummy runner and the defender and I don't think there's an easy way to rewrite the rule book to get rid of those grey areas.

The second is the increase in "wrestling" techniques in the tackle in a bid to win the overall collision and buy more time. This in turn means there are more players around the ball carrier, making it harder for the officials to see everything that's going on for the ref, and players have become more adept at just giving the ball a slight nudge to loosen it from the ball-carrier's grip - the difference between a loose carry and a strip has become quite blurred, especially with defenders now coached to keep their hands on the ball/ballcarrier's hands for as long as they can get away with to delay a quick PTB. Again, it's hard to know what they could do in terms of changing the rules to improve this situation.

Fair point, the dummy runner's don't make it easy, but I've lost count of the number of calls that would have been penalised for an off the ball tackle at one time. Kendall gave a shocking decision in the televised game this week where the defender purposefully just tagged the dummy runner to get the obstruction decision, even though he wasn't obstructed and no advantage was gained by the attacking team. 

On the wrestling thing, all this nonsense of dominant and surrender is a load of tripe. What was wrong with shouting held, or the tackle number to indicate the tackle was completed immediately once momentum had stopped, if the defenders didn't get out of the way straight away, they were penalised, simple. No need for the man to be thrown on the floor 3 or 4 seconds after the ref had shouted MOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEE, which in itself takes him half a minute to spit out before the tackle is deemed completed. I think it is why a lot of the skill levels in this country have diminished over the years and the game has evolved in to a 5 drive and a kick war of attrition, particularly in SL. THe game has slowed down to a crawl, with defenses almost always set and very little broken play.

I don't like the refs calling players by name either, it suggests familiarity and possible bias, what was up with them shouting, 8 your offside, for example.

Why do we stop the game for injuries? I don't think there is one ref I would want treating me for any sort of injury, if I was still playing. Carry on playing unless the doctor assesses the player and advises it is a serious injury requiring a stretcher. Just move the PTB 10 meters in field if necessary, away from the injured player so they are not interfering with play.

Totally agree with Rob above, I'd also get rid of the stupid rules ball stealing rules, keep it simple, it is the ball carrier's responsibility to keep hold of it, if the ball is lost, it is a turn over. It is one of the very few things I prefer in the NRL, they tend to lean more to this approach, over here it is a lottery.

Edited by DOGFATHER

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21 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Fair point, the dummy runner's don't make it easy, but I've lost count of the number of calls that would have been penalised for an off the ball tackle at one time. Kendall gave a shocking decision in the televised game this week where the defender purposefully just tagged the dummy runner to get the obstruction decision, even though he wasn't obstructed and no advantage was gained by the attacking team. 

On the wrestling thing, all this nonsense of dominant and surrender is a load of tripe. What was wrong with shouting held, or the tackle number to indicate the tackle was completed immediately once momentum had stopped, if the defenders didn't get out of the way straight away, they were penalised, simple. No need for the man to be thrown on the floor 3 or 4 seconds after the ref had shouted MOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEE, which in itself takes him half a minute to spit out before the tackle is deemed completed. I think it is why a lot of the skill levels in this country have diminished over the years and the game has evolved in to a 5 drive and a kick war of attrition, particularly in SL.  

I don't like the refs calling players by name either, it suggests familiarity and possible bias, what was up with them shouting, 8 your offside, for example.

Why do we stop the game for injuries? I don't think there is one ref I would want treating me for any sort of injury, if I was still playing. Carry on playing unless the doctor assesses the player and advises it is a serious injury requiring a stretcher. Just move the PTB 10 meters in field if necessary, away from the injured player so they are not interfering with play.

I'd also get rid of the stupid rules with ball stealing, keep it simple, it is the ball carrier's responsibility to keep hold of it, if the ball is lost, it is a turn over.

I think with a lot of the things you mention above, the rules changes have been in response to the way the game has evolved rather than actually causing the changes themselves. For instance, I think the increased number of players you see in the tackle nowadays has made the ball carrier far more vulnerable to having the ball stolen (that's why they brought in the rule restricting it to 1-to-1 steals)...additionally, a lot of the more contentious incidents happen just as the ball carrier is about to play the ball, if your rule about calling a turnover whenever the ball was lost you'd see such incidents increase massively, especially when he goes to play the ball, just a little nudge at the right time usually dislodges the ball.

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30 minutes ago, Blue Pike said:

Back to the title of this thread .Is next weekends game under threat of being cancelled.

I have already bought my ticket, it was 1 of 3 away games that I decided I was going to go to along with York & Toronto. How can I find out.

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5 minutes ago, Fev1983 said:

I have already bought my ticket, it was 1 of 3 away games that I decided I was going to go to along with York & Toronto. How can I find out.

You'll just have to wait to see what develops over the coming week. Even if something is sorted and the game goes ahead, the ticket may not be honoured.

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.I suspect any monies that are in the Clubs coffers will be in the hands of the Administrators and put towards priorities but I would have thought any tickets purchased prior to this will be legally binding.

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48 minutes ago, Blue Pike said:

.I suspect any monies that are in the Clubs coffers will be in the hands of the Administrators and put towards priorities but I would have thought any tickets purchased prior to this will be legally binding.

Almost certainly won't be legally binding for them to be honoured in the same way that goods or sevices bought from a 'normal' company who then goes into admin before you've received them aren't. You've become a creditor who is owed the price of the non received services paid for (if you paid by card you should be able to claim the money back from the card Co if the tickets aren't honoured). Widnes season tickets are also unprotected but it's likely that the RFL would want any potential new owner to honour them - I believe Bradford have honoured pre purchased season tickets in the past - although that immediately gives rise to reduced income for any new incarnation of the Club.

Edited by Les Tonks Sidestep

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  Sorry to hear of Widnes being in such  financial trouble.But it may be to our advantage as i had them down to do the double over us,i thought even getting beaten by Toronto they showed much more than we have so far this season.Don't let our win against a poor Batley team gloss over the facts that we have plenty of improvement needed.However i do think we will beat Fax today.

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I think Widnes demise is the final obstacle removed between Toronto and their passage through to SL.They must be feeling smug.The only chance imo of them not winning the play off final is them having a bad game  like last year against London.Of ourselves like I’ve said before with a practically new Team from last year plus new Coach I will be happy with mid table with the hope of money coming in from the scrub land so we can build a quality side in a couple of years to have a good dig.

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45 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

 i thought even getting beaten by Toronto they showed much more than we have so far this season.

Amazing how we all see a game. I thought they were terrible and never looked like scoring all game, only scoring off a lucky richochet, I couldnt believe they were 2-0 for the season prior to that based on that showing

But yes it is an excellent time to play them - not only because they are in strife but they picked up a few long term injuries in Tangata n Ashall-Bolt in that game and their squad is paper thin

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38 minutes ago, Blue Pike said:

I think Widnes demise is the final obstacle removed between Toronto and their passage through to SL.They must be feeling smug.The only chance imo of them not winning the play off final is them having a bad game  like last year against London.Of ourselves like I’ve said before with a practically new Team from last year plus new Coach I will be happy with mid table with the hope of money coming in from the scrub land so we can build a quality side in a couple of years to have a good dig.

Not  feeling smug at all, you clearly don't understand the Toronto fan.....more like very sad to see an old legendary club in this sort of mess....hope everything works out and they can get back on their feet.  

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3 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Not  feeling smug at all, you clearly don't understand the Toronto fan.....more like very sad to see an old legendary club in this sort of mess....hope everything works out and they can get back on their feet.  

A mess like this does not occur overnight.

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7 minutes ago, jamescolin said:

It would be interesting to know why the potential backer withdrew his support. The mess was supposedly under control so what happened to make it still a mess.

I would imagine their were about 800,000 reasons why one of the parties decided to withdraw....

Edited by Robin Evans
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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:40 AM, Robin Evans said:

Those are your views Rob. Fair dos.

I find the idea of multiple referees for decades being biased against fev... absolutely absurd.

Our opinions differ. C'est la vie.

But we do seem to suffer more than most from, let's call them eccentric decisions.  The Bradford "try" at Odsal the other week is a case in point. 

A couple of years ago,  we were on our own line, leading Halifax by a point at P O Road, with seconds to go, we intercept and power up to the halfway only for the ref to give us offside under our own posts.  Penalty to 'Fax and we lose instead of winning. He was right of course, we were offside.  But then both teams had been offside all afternoon, and not one of them resulted in a penalty.  Indeed the Fev coaching staff said they could hear the touchies saying "offside" to the ref all through the game and he was ignoring them.  But suddenly he penalises offside, under the Fev posts with seconds to go and no time to come back.  Now that's what I call perverse.  And not the only time this sort of thing has happened to Fev.  One more point, it never happens to Wigan.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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27 minutes ago, Trojan said:

But we do seem to suffer more than most from, let's call them eccentric decisions.  The Bradford "try" at Odsal the other week is a case in point. 

A couple of years ago,  we were on our own line, leading Halifax by a point at P O Road, with seconds to go, we intercept and power up to the halfway only for the ref to give us offside under our own posts.  Penalty to 'Fax and we lose instead of winning. He was right of course, we were offside.  But then both teams had been offside all afternoon, and not one of them resulted in a penalty.  Indeed the Fev coaching staff said they could hear the touchies saying "offside" to the ref all through the game and he was ignoring them.  But suddenly he penalises offside, under the Fev posts with seconds to go and no time to come back.  Now that's what I call perverse.  And not the only time this sort of thing has happened to Fev.  One more point, it never happens to Wigan.

Thing is Trojan.... it does.

And if you ask fans of almost every club in our league they all believe its their club being persecuted.

Last year some batley fans were whinging about "moneybags fev" getting all the decisions.....

The absurdity of this situation is we all think we're being sh at upon.

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I agree all fans think their team is being disadvantaged either by penalties against or decisions made . I think what we all want is consistency if it’s a penalty in the first minute then that should follow throughout the game . As at sometimes it appears the ref picks when to award a penalty. It’s this that gets fans backs up

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1 hour ago, Reddwarf said:

I agree all fans think their team is being disadvantaged either by penalties against or decisions made . I think what we all want is consistency if it’s a penalty in the first minute then that should follow throughout the game . As at sometimes it appears the ref picks when to award a penalty. It’s this that gets fans backs up

Problem is that what we fans sometimes see as inconsistency is a result of the ref trying to let the game flow. For example, player A is offside at the ptb but doesn't affect play, the ref has a quiet word to watch himself, then 2 mins later A does the same and he gets penalised. Unless every offence is penalised then there has to be some leniency, and by implication some perceived inconsistency, or we would simply end up with a game of 100+ penalties.

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3 hours ago, Trojan said:

But we do seem to suffer more than most from, let's call them eccentric decisions.  The Bradford "try" at Odsal the other week is a case in point. 

A couple of years ago,  we were on our own line, leading Halifax by a point at P O Road, with seconds to go, we intercept and power up to the halfway only for the ref to give us offside under our own posts.  Penalty to 'Fax and we lose instead of winning. He was right of course, we were offside.  But then both teams had been offside all afternoon, and not one of them resulted in a penalty.  Indeed the Fev coaching staff said they could hear the touchies saying "offside" to the ref all through the game and he was ignoring them.  But suddenly he penalises offside, under the Fev posts with seconds to go and no time to come back.  Now that's what I call perverse.  And not the only time this sort of thing has happened to Fev.  One more point, it never happens to Wigan.

Well put

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3 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

Thing is Trojan.... it does.

And if you ask fans of almost every club in our league they all believe its their club being persecuted.

Last year some batley fans were whinging about "moneybags fev" getting all the decisions.....

The absurdity of this situation is we all think we're being sh at upon.

Yeah but there's only us that's right............

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