If we brought back licensing....

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

I didnt realise we were talking about amateur sport , this thread is aboutthe application of a licencing system for the top proffessional clubs in NH RL , not about what happened on a muddy field 130 years ago , so it wasnt me changing the goalpost I knew exactly what the discussion was about

The Union mergers ? again , were they not about preparing new teams to compete in completely new competitions that were being set up , with the old clubs continuing to play in the old ones ?

You said teams were set up to entertain fans I correct you

You said there has been no sucsessfull mergers in british sport, i corrected you,

and you are sqwerming like a worm and doing a bad job of it

You are correct though that there are seven clubs you could deem as sucsessfull in SL

and then the other smaller clubs would need to merge or we would be left in a situation where stand alone small clubs make up the numbers.

Widnes and Leigh who have repeatedly been left out have had 2 chances each and failed to be a SL level club on both occasions.

Clearly these clubs are passed the point of merging.

Hull KR who were threatened with merging have managed to prove themselves worthy even if junior developed is pointless and TBF the hull clubs have pooled resources and merged their academy's! So a partial merger in hull.

Cumbria is still viable to merge but will now face a lot of rebuilding

Manchester should merge now and ring the death toll to the pointless failing Manchester outfits 

Calder region are ok for now but if the bar is raised again a merger will be necessary for them to keep up.

So 3 new SL worthy clubs through mergers and add in Toronto who are SO ready and Toulouse who are not far off and would tick every box of any potential licence

 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Do you have facts for that then?

What that Dom is from Leigh ? , or that Josh is from leigh and a Leigh ST holder ?

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, yipyee said:

You said teams were set up to entertain fans I correct you

You said there has been no sucsessfull mergers in british sport, i corrected you,

and you are sqwerming like a worm and doing a bad job of it

You are correct though that there are seven clubs you could deem as sucsessfull in SL

and then the other smaller clubs would need to merge or we would be left in a situation where stand alone small clubs make up the numbers.

Widnes and Leigh who have repeatedly been left out have had 2 chances each and failed to be a SL level club on both occasions.

Clearly these clubs are passed the point of merging.

Hull KR who were threatened with merging have managed to prove themselves worthy even if junior developed is pointless and TBF the hull clubs have pooled resources and merged their academy's! So a partial merger in hull.

Cumbria is still viable to merge but will now face a lot of rebuilding

Manchester should merge now and ring the death toll to the pointless failing Manchester outfits

Calder region are ok for now but if the bar is raised again a merger will be necessary for them to keep up.

So 3 new SL worthy clubs through mergers and add in Toronto who are SO ready and Toulouse who are not far off and would tick every box of any potential licence

 

I'll happily leave it there , but apart from Cally/thistle I'd still argue that what I call a succsses and you call a sucsses are poles apart

 

[ravens88]

Here we go again with RL OBSESSION with viewing figures/attendances on this matter

It doesn't matter to SKY  They'll be showing Super Rugby for the foreseeable future It fills a useful slot in their schedule with good content. Morning with Action from NZ/AUS, Afternoon  from S AFRICA & Evenings from Argentina

SKY have NO interest in broadcasting Pro Teams BATTER a team compiled of Builders & Personal Trainers by 60 points in a run down stadium with 637 fans

Rugby Union commercially/financially is WAY WAY Ahead of League in terms of its International Approach They have an 8 team league in USA. Brazil are making strides in the International Argentina have a club side playing in Super Rugby so a new generation of fans are seeing games there. Japan is FULL of potential financially.

Whilst in League we have Fans moan about Catalan Dragons not bringing enough fans to road games or other ###### about the focusing on the "Heartlands".

Relying on "Heartland" clubs in small deindustrialised towns & villages who have NOT grown in OVER a Century will FAIL. These Zombie Clubs lurch from begging bowl to begging bowl. Let such clubs compete in Amateur comps, so we can focus on the Big Boys to grow the game.

Catalans are the BEST success story in Rugby League this CENTURY. Then we have Toronto taking NO Money from the RFL having over 7,000 attend games & have ALL their games shown on SKY in less than 3 years & we have folks that moan about what they bring to the game. 

RL needs to broaden its horizons and look to expand Internationally for MORE growth & expansion. 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, ravens88 said:

Here we go again with RL OBSESSION with viewing figures/attendances on this matter

It doesn't matter to SKY  They'll be showing Super Rugby for the foreseeable future It fills a useful slot in their schedule with good content. Morning with Action from NZ/AUS, Afternoon  from S AFRICA & Evenings from Argentina

SKY have NO interest in broadcasting Pro Teams BATTER a team compiled of Builders & Personal Trainers by 60 points in a run down stadium with 637 fans

Rugby Union commercially/financially is WAY WAY Ahead of League in terms of its International Approach They have an 8 team league in USA. Brazil are making strides in the International Argentina have a club side playing in Super Rugby so a new generation of fans are seeing games there. Japan is FULL of potential financially.

Whilst in League we have Fans moan about Catalan Dragons not bringing enough fans to road games or other ###### about the focusing on the "Heartlands".

Relying on "Heartland" clubs in small deindustrialised towns & villages who have NOT grown in OVER a Century will FAIL. These Zombie Clubs lurch from begging bowl to begging bowl. Let such clubs compete in Amateur comps, so we can focus on the Big Boys to grow the game.

Catalans are the BEST success story in Rugby League this CENTURY. Then we have Toronto taking NO Money from the RFL having over 7,000 attend games & have ALL their games shown on SKY in less than 3 years & we have folks that moan about what they bring to the game.

RL needs to broaden its horizons and look to expand Internationally for MORE growth & expansion.

All it takes is a few billion

[Oliver Clothesoff]

24 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

What that Dom is from Leigh ? , or that Josh is from leigh and a Leigh ST holder ?

Convenient. 

[Smudger06]

6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Sky own the rights to the championship. They could show it if they wanted to. They choose not to. They do show Super Rugby from Australia, NZ, South Africa, Japan and Argentina, they will show the Top 14 from France, they will show the Mitre 10 from NZ and the Currie Cup from South Africa

Sky pay for the rights to cover those competitions, they pay for the rights to cover the WCC. They pay for the rights to show the NRL.

The figures to back it up are, well they show these games and dont show the championship. But if you want to go for viewing figures, even if 0 people watched a game on main event, at least more than 50k people watched Super Rugby on Sky last week. Now you may wish to argue that is virtually no-one if you wish. Actually no-one watched two English sides in the championship.

The idea that Sky want to show games between northern british sides but dont because of cost, this despite the fact they own the championship rights already but choose not to show them yet they then go out and buy rights to the NRL, Super Rugby, Top14, Mitre 10, Currie Cup etc is one of the stranger arguments ive heard.

They don't bloody pay to produce the content though do they!!!!! So yes, it's cheap content filler!!!!! They do show the Championship when they get the minimum production quality done for them and handed to them on a plate!!!!!!! 

They don't pay to cover these events!!! They pay to merely simulcast them onto the UK market.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Convenient.

What , you want their addresses and phone numbers ? , L can probably get Dom's , he's a mate of my nephews , they played at the Miners together , nice lad went on holiday to sharm with him and his parents a few years back , as for Josh , just what I have been told , it is common knowledge though

Not sure what your point is though

[yipyee]

39 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I'll happily leave it there , but apart from Cally/thistle I'd still argue that what I call a succsses and you call a sucsses are poles apart

 

Newcastle football = success 

Wales rugby mergers = success

Also is your name intentially starbug backwards?

[yipyee]

29 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

All it takes is a few billion

I very much doubt it has taken Toronto anywhere near that amount to achieve tremendous growth in 3 years.

[Smudger06]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The cost of producing content isn't that high.

The cost they pay to buy the rights is higher than the cost of sending an ob to Swinton. 

Skys rights budget and production budget is in the billions. The thousands a championship broadcast would cost is a drop in the ocean. They wouldn't even notice it. They dont show it because people dont watch

They do show it though?

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They show Toronto, they dont show the championship as a whole because it has no value. 

Oh, so they definitely do not show the other team?.....

What of the summer bash? Do all 6 ive Games show Toronto, even when they weren't in it? 

As a Rugby League Fan just embrace the 3rd best League in the world. On the other hand, If it's of no value stop constantly talking about it, definitely don't check the table and results.....

 

[JCXV]

45 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The cost of producing content isn't that high.

The cost they pay to buy the rights is higher than the cost of sending an ob to Swinton. 

Skys rights budget and production budget is in the billions. The thousands a championship broadcast would cost is a drop in the ocean. They wouldn't even notice it. They dont show it because people dont watch

If Sky filmed and then broadcast the championship it would then cost more to pay for the rights again when they next become available. 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, yipyee said:

Newcastle football = success

Wales rugby mergers = success

Also is your name intentially starbug backwards?

Not really , how long since they won anything ?

No idea , but like I said , was it a completely new comp with all new clubs ?

Yes

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, yipyee said:

I very much doubt it has taken Toronto anywhere near that amount to achieve tremendous growth in 3 years.

But it certainly helps to have the billion to start with

[ravens88]

2 hours ago, yipyee said:

I very much doubt it has taken Toronto anywhere near that amount to achieve tremendous growth in 3 years.

Of course it doesn't, but GUBRATS know this but is being obtuse

Too many RL fans have this parochial mindset and hence why the game stays a MINOR sport in the UK. 

Unless you look to expand to find new areas for growth/expansion or else the game will shrink slowly over time as Rugby League has shown over the last 25 years

[RP London]

11 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi RP, at the present time (happy to be corrected) we employ circa 90 overseas players in our game, the only reason we do so is that we cannot produce e ough pkayers of our own to satisfy our requirements, new entities in areas that cannot and eill not be able to produce players for a very long time is the last thing we require, especially if in tandem with new clubs in new areas we forsake those below SL level who's areas actually do contribute to the production converyor belt.

I would be the first to agree with taking the game to those new areas if we were awash with players and had more than the game can employ, but we don't, we are basically beggars for playing talent, beggars cant afford to give anything away.

I don't disagree with that.. however without looking wider than where we look now this is never going to change. Its the same thing we have been saying for years but it will.never change of we don't actually do somethimg about it. 

One of the key points I said was "at some level" I also said you don't need to scrap present clubs to get there... I used the example of the DOs in London..  this worked well and the amateur game was growing well with a junior set up expanding faster than anywhere else. Yet it was scrapped. 10 years down the line London is producing some kids, how many more and how much better if the investment in DOs had continued. 

A concerted amount of investment and, importantly, time can start all of this off. A top level team can come when the area is starting to produce better. 

The attitude of RL always seems to be that expansion is at the expense of he heartlands yet it can be done in conjunction with keeping the heartlands strong. But without looking further afield for the player pool the game is not going to grow and will probably wither and die. The new areas may be generations away but the only way (Not true of everywhere for sure) but if you don't start then they will always be that far away.

[RP London]

11 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

As I pointed out earlier , the Catalans merger is completely different , would it have been supported if it was to continue playing in the French league against its old adversaries ? Their existing clubs still playin and against each other in Elite 1 , they [ Catalans ] were leaving France and playing in a completely new different competition against opposition from a different country , it wasnt essentially a merger , both the old clubs still exist , It was 2 clubs working together to create a completely new club

Ok so when one is a success you change the goal posts..  great debating style. 

Catalans was a necessary move to gain access. It is like Cumbria and would/could be like a few other areas... neither team is good enough on its own so if the area wants a super league team you have to merge. The 2 teams could still exist underneath as feeder teams (As I believe the old teams of the merged Australian entities do). The 2 Catalans entities hated each other and made it work for the greater good and that is what can be done here. 

The rivalries built up against other clubs are irrelevant... you won't be playing them anyway if you don't merge.

It is very possible to do but it needs to be done in the right way.. to stick your heels in and say "it would never work" is to miss the fact that it does, in other sports (ru did quite a lot in the 80s and 90s) and in other countries. We just go about it in all the wrong ways and the upset caused by doing it today overrides the potential gains down the line. 

The thing is you are sort of agreeing with me.. you give reasons why it worked so showing that IF you do it in a certain way (which will change for each situation) then it is possible. I am NOT saying it will work everytime or in every case but just that it CAN.

 

[Tommygilf]

On mergers etc, I think what we will find is that if clubs such as in West Cumbria or parts of G. Manchester for example don't pool resources there are 2 alternatives. 

1. All parties tumble down the leagues.

2. 1 club ends up, by luck or by crook, gaining a huge advantage such as a new stadium. As such it naturally will outgrow its local rivals financially. You might not have a "merged club", but the majority of new fans such as young people will be drawn towards the bigger and better. I can see this happening in Cumbria with the new Workington stadium on the cards. 

Regardless, closed shop licensing kills off the lower divisions anyhow. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

We’ve been through this merger nonsense before haven’t we?

There’s very little appetite for it.

All you are doing is killing clubs and losing fans to the game forever in the process.

 

[Smudger06]

7 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Lol

Why laugh? or you really don't see the logic behind his comment.....

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We’ve been through this merger nonsense before haven’t we?

There’s very little appetite for it.

All you are doing is killing clubs and losing fans to the game forever in the process.

 

Again I am not for mergers but that is just untrue. 

In the format they were discussed and in some areas you are right but if done correctly a merger can reinvigorate an area and help it grow in the future, you may lose a number of fans today but you can gain for generations to come. 

The point is that it has to be done right and the conditions have to be done right. Otherwise the argument is to let evolution take its course and 1 team dominates over and above the others. The merger comes in when that is not possible or is not going to be able to happen to a high enough level. 

They will only work sparingly but they should not be discounted.. equally they should not be bandied around as the saviour of all as they were at the start as you elude to.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We’ve been through this merger nonsense before haven’t we?

There’s very little appetite for it.

All you are doing is killing clubs and losing fans to the game forever in the process.

 

I'm not in favour of mergers but that last point could be made exactly about having multiple clubs in the same area at the bottom of the Championship or in League 1. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Have you any experience? The facts are that there are plenty of heartland towns that have not had top flight RL for decades, are still producing RL players of sufficient quality. 

Jake Connor is from Halifax, Halifax we’re out of SL before Jake was 10. 

George, Sam, Luke and Tom Burgess are from Dewsbury. Dewsbury haven’t been in the top flight in a generation. They’ve all played in the NRL. 

Joe Greenwood is from Oldham. Oldham were out of Super League before Joe started primary school. Guess what? He’s a double Grand Final winning, International who’s played in Australia. 

That’s just the last England team. You can throw in Kyle Amor, Brad Singleton, Morgan Knowles, Greg Richards, Craig Huby, Jordan Turner, James Greenwood Kyle Eastmond, Alex Mellor, Adam O’Brien, Shaun Lunt, Lee Mossop, Ben Harrison, Marc Sneyd, Tom Briscoe, Kallum Watkins, James Donaldson, Gareth Widdop and Gregg McNally who’ve come from places that haven’t had elite rugby league for long in their lifetime, if ever at all.

There’s 25 names off the top of my head. There’s likely a huge number more who’ve done the same. 

You have just substantiated my point, so you agree with me, that we still require these towns not in SL to produce players, they initially get introduced to the sport in their locallity and develop from there the best will get hoovered up by the SL teams that is and will always be the case.

You have kind of lost me a little in your argument Oliver, initially you suggest there is no place in your modern world for teams other than from SL towns, my argument was that if we do not have these clubs in these towns/areas the focal point of the game diminishes, that will affect the the game being played in the schools and in the community clubs interest will wane, it is hard enough as it is to keep the momentum going in intorducing kids to RL, if there local pro clubs are no more the job will  be 10 times harder.

The list you have so eloquently put together (I could times that by 5) would most probably not have that initial interest and introduction if their towns were not RL towns, the reason they are is because there is a pro club there, the game requires/needs not only SL clubs but also these clubs from the old established towns to keep the game going in producing players as you elude to.

New teams in virgin areas at the expense of traditional towns is not the answer to our problems the game cannot afford to wait 25 to 30 years for them to evolve a system to produce players in sufficient quantities and numbers, it is self denial for anybody to assume otherwise.

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

9 minutes ago, RP London said:

Again I am not for mergers but that is just untrue. 

In the format they were discussed and in some areas you are right but if done correctly a merger can reinvigorate an area and help it grow in the future, you may lose a number of fans today but you can gain for generations to come. 

The point is that it has to be done right and the conditions have to be done right. Otherwise the argument is to let evolution take its course and 1 team dominates over and above the others. The merger comes in when that is not possible or is not going to be able to happen to a high enough level. 

They will only work sparingly but they should not be discounted.. equally they should not be bandied around as the saviour of all as they were at the start as you elude to.

Explain to me in detail how you are going to do mergers ‘right’?