International Women's Day

[Dave T]

What a miserable thread this turned out to be.

[John Drake]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I was being a bit mischievous in starting this thread, so I used the Herring twitter account as a light-hearted angle. 

It still went the same way as expected though!

He's raised over £78k for Refuge so far today.

Hats off to Herring!

Eleven hours in. Send help. In the form of your money. Imagine those smiling idiots thinking they’re winning the war against women, finding out that they are just helping out @RefugeCharity. That’s got to be worth £5 https://t.co/XUSdJ48Ja4

— Richard K Herring (@Herring1967) March 8, 2019

[graveyard johnny]

have bought my wife gifts to celebrate international womens day, a brand new bag and a brand new belt she wanted the whole new vacuum cleaner but theres plenty of life in the model she currently has

[Wiltshire Rhino]

30 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

I read what you wrote. Why do you think white men turn out to be the best qualified person for those roles to a much greater extent than would be predicted? 

I have no idea why these individuals (I prefer that to white men or any other grouping) have achieved their position. It's probably to do with a good education and/or hard work. This route to good jobs is available to individuals of all genders and races.

Well, unless you can show me different 

[tim2]

3 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

I have no idea why these individuals (I prefer that to white men or any other grouping) have achieved their position. It's probably to do with a good education and hard work. This route to good jobs is available to individuals of all genders and races.

Well, unless you can show me different 

Evidence shows that not to be the case. Example, the Rose report on the funding of women entrepreneurs by banks and VCs that is outrageously biased towards male applicants.

Anyway, hundreds of years of privilege isn't going to wiped out overnight.

[Farmduck]

1 hour ago, Saint 1 said:

Why would women or non-whites be particularly unqualified for those jobs? 

Why should we assume that all the white men didn't get those jobs on merit.

The Australian Government did an experiment where all identifying information was deleted from job applications and a panel had to shortlist them for interviews. The overwhelming majority of those chosen for interview were white males.  https://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/projects/going-blind-see-more-clearly-unconscious-bias-australian-public-service-aps-shortlisting   

Of course, before the study kicked off, we were assured that it would expose the institutional systemic bias in hiring and promotions.  Then, when it proved the exact opposite, the same people told us we shouldn't read too much into it and it needed to be interpreted with caution. In this awful, racist, sexist country we call home, you know who lost out worst of all? Women and Aboriginals. It actually showed that, on pure qualifications and merit, we had been overhiring women and Aboriginals for decades.

[JohnM]

International Women's Day......because they're worth it.

[Farmduck]

53 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

I read what you wrote. Why do you think white men turn out to be the best qualified person for those roles to a much greater extent than would be predicted? 

Since we don't know the precise qualifications for those positions it is difficult to guess. Perhaps more men study Business Management. Perhaps that particular group of men included some very talented people. Perhaps those men had been promoted to those positions because of their performance standards in their previous positions. Perhaps no women applied for those jobs - we have no way of knowing. Perhaps 6 months ago half of those jobs were filled by women but they've all been promoted.

To do a simple head count and interpret some arbitrary number as evidence of a problem is simplistic.

[JohnM]

ITV reporter Libby Wiener shouted: “Prime Minister, only one question from a woman reporter on International Women’s Day. A pretty poor show, isn’t it?" In response, the Prime Minister turned around and shouted: “You’ve had answers from a woman Prime Minister.”

[tim2]

Just now, JohnM said:

ITV reporter Libby Wiener shouted: “Prime Minister, only one question from a woman reporter on International Women’s Day. A pretty poor show, isn’t it?" In response, the Prime Minister turned around and shouted: “You’ve had answers from a woman Prime Minister.”

A terrible one

[henage]

2 hours ago, tim2 said:

Evidence shows that not to be the case. Example, the Rose report on the funding of women entrepreneurs by banks and VCs that is outrageously biased towards male applicants.

Anyway, hundreds of years of privilege isn't going to wiped out overnight.

I have some building land for sale . Eight units just the right size for a small builder to expand . Have taken 4 people around the site over the last 6 months , spoke on the phone , on-line with another 6 , not one of them could raise money via a bank . 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

ITV reporter Libby Wiener shouted: “Prime Minister, only one question from a woman reporter on International Women’s Day. A pretty poor show, isn’t it?" In response, the Prime Minister turned around and shouted: “You’ve had answers from a woman Prime Minister.”

That does rather miss the point though doesn't it? The reporter was clearly talking about women in the media. 

May being PM doesn't mean there is gender equality in all areas of industry.

[tim2]

1 minute ago, henage said:

I have some building land for sale . Eight units just the right size for a small builder to expand . Have taken 4 people around the site over the last 6 months , spoke on the phone , on-line with another 6 , not one of them could raise money via a bank . 

I suspect there's a North/South problem as well.

[Shadow]

[Maximus Decimus]

15 hours ago, Dave T said:

Richard Herring is on his annual campaign

 

The sad reality is that he probably spends most of his day now replying to people fishing for his reply.

Although on the upside this can only happen because of the amount of awareness he's spread over the years! 

[JohnM]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

That does rather miss the point though doesn't it? The reporter was clearly talking about women in the media. 

May being PM doesn't mean there is gender equality in all areas of industry.

Does not snt miss the point as there isn't a point to miss. Just made me chuckle that the number of reporters questions called was in anyway indicative of the presence or absence of prejudice.

In the real world, there is in my view a very broad wavefront of institutionalised expectation, ambition, stereotyping etc and there is a long way to go, a long way, in ensuring that, for example, PR and marketing are not seen as more attractive fields for females than say engineering. CIPR meetings I used to attend years ago were the almost exclusive preserve of females.

Certainly companies such as Dyson, Siemens, JLR are as open to female engineers as they can. Just not enough candidates. 

[Copa]

On 3/9/2019 at 12:46 AM, GUBRATS said:

I suppose having somebody call you a " honky bstard " isnt being racist ?

Who even says “honky bstard”?

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Copa said:

Who even says “honky bstard”?

We are talking 1975

[Dave T]

On 3/9/2019 at 2:03 AM, JohnM said:

Does not snt miss the point as there isn't a point to miss. Just made me chuckle that the number of reporters questions called was in anyway indicative of the presence or absence of prejudice.

In the real world, there is in my view a very broad wavefront of institutionalised expectation, ambition, stereotyping etc and there is a long way to go, a long way, in ensuring that, for example, PR and marketing are not seen as more attractive fields for females than say engineering. CIPR meetings I used to attend years ago were the almost exclusive preserve of females.

Certainly companies such as Dyson, Siemens, JLR are as open to female engineers as they can. Just not enough candidates. 

I'm not sure there isn't a point there, the media has had plenty of criticism for being male led, so there was a point there that there was a very small female representation in the media on IWD.

The paragraph on marketing is interesting, at our place I find that in the main, the general marketing teams are heavily female biased (prob 80:20), but once you move to the senior levels, these roles tend to be held by men. This model appears to be the same with the marketing agencies we work with too. I find the marketing world a bit odd, coming from a commercial background, but it looks like the women are seen as good at the fluffy stuff, and the big decisions at the top will be made by the men. That is a relatively small sample, but it is based on working with marketing teams and agencies over a 20 year period.

[ckn]

On 3/9/2019 at 2:03 AM, JohnM said:

Does not snt miss the point as there isn't a point to miss. Just made me chuckle that the number of reporters questions called was in anyway indicative of the presence or absence of prejudice.

In the real world, there is in my view a very broad wavefront of institutionalised expectation, ambition, stereotyping etc and there is a long way to go, a long way, in ensuring that, for example, PR and marketing are not seen as more attractive fields for females than say engineering. CIPR meetings I used to attend years ago were the almost exclusive preserve of females.

Certainly companies such as Dyson, Siemens, JLR are as open to female engineers as they can. Just not enough candidates. 

There’s plenty of career paths that are institutionally sexist and there’s very few paths for women to get through despite the best will of management or the Board of companies.  An example, I take my wife to the hospital every 2nd week, a private hospital that has around 15 outpatient rooms where we sit and every single room usually has a male Consultant in them. It’s a rare old day that women are there as a Consultant.

Some clinical pathways are fully open to women, such as GPs, others, especially surgical pathways, have huge sexist blocks in the way and the institutional sexism pats women on the head and tells them to know their place. They’re happy for women to get to Registrar grade but strangely they rarely make it through the highly secretive Consultant interviews.

Then you get the patient perspective, patients have been shown in repeated studies to subconsciously overwhelmingly expect a male doctor and a female nurse.

My other career qualification of engineering mirrors your understanding, the companies have pulled out every stop to get more women in, as have the institutions, but it has such a poor reputation for sexism that women don’t go near it in anywhere near the numbers needed to be able to even start positive discrimination efforts.

We are getting there as a society but we’re not there yet.