Maximus Decimus Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 The blatant milking thing is something that appears to have snuck in. Bradford seemed particularly adept at this today, and Hewson gave them the penalty nearly every time they clamped an arm, hooked a leg or crawled off the mark. There was one unpenalised example that happened in front of me. Connor Farrell was tackled, stood up and then hooked the leg of the marking Widnes player before dropping it. There was absolutely no reason for him to hook the leg apart from to try and win a penalty. I've often thought that in RL were far too harsh on defending sides and allow attacking sides to get away with all sorts. Stepping off the mark has been an issue for years, players will literally walk forward 3 or 4 steps and then the ref penalises the defender for standing his ground. Go figure! A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Warrior Dragon Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Thanks to you, Stirk, for starting this interesting - to say the least! - thread! Like Dunbar, I was prompted to go back to what the laws actually say. What I find striking is that current practice, at least in this country (I don't watch Australasian RL), is significantly different from what the laws actually state. In the scenario where a tackler is trapped at the bottom of a tackle and then has the ball at the PTB played into his body before he can reasonably get clear, the offender is - or should be - the player in possession (see law 10 [d]) The tackled player, on regaining his feet, can drop the ball to the ground and then heel it backwards (see law 10 ) - and nor get called for a knock on? Oh, really? The tackled player shall regain his feet where he was tackled (my italics) - oh, really? Going back to your original post, Stirk, it is not 'glaringly obvious' to me that we need two referees. We just need (a) the laws to actually be enforced, and (b) the referee and linesmen to work in tandem. I would suggest that the referee should watch the PTB, and leave the possible encroachment offside by the defending team to be monitored by the linesman; I would go as far as to suggest that the linesmen have whistles and blow for offside infringements in this context. I was a bit sceptical about the countdown clock for scrums and goal-line drop-outs (a pedant writes, "shouldn't that be 'drops-out'?"), but I have to concede that it appears to be tidying up those aspects of the game. Now we just need to get rid of other bits of silliness. What I have in mind here is the current practice of refs telling players what they are doing wrong, but not penalising them. This becomes very arbitrary. Examples of this include when the ref stops a restart (eg a 20m one) because the defending players haven't retired a full 10 yards, and tells them to get back fully; why not penalise them? They would soon mend their ways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 I watched 3 NRL games this weekend and IMHO if a SL referee had reffed these games then the penalty count would have been greater in each game. In the Storm v Broncos game I counted at least half a dozen occassions in the first half when the defending team deliberately impeded the play the ball and the tackled player complained to the ref. It appears that NRL officials are quite prepared to let these things go where SL refs are too keen to penalise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Lofter Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 55 minutes ago, Rioman said: All this rubbish that goes on at the ruck and not playing the ball correctly should be clamped down on and penalised. The trouble is it's been going on for so long and seems to have become the 'norm' that if refs start dishing out a load of penalties the crowds will be on the back of the refs for not letting the game flow and for giving too many penalties. ...but the penalty count will cease when players stop abusing the laws of the game and do the basic moves required. Any player repeatedly refusing to play-the-ball correctly won't get in the team as he will be a liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 One thing that is very obvious when watching a game at the ground is that on almost every play the ball some of the defending team is offside. This is noticeable with all teams but seems a lottery when the referees actually give a penalty for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 8 hours ago, Stirk said: Having watched 4 Games from the NRL and watching the 3rd from Super League this weekend. Three penalties given in total in NRL matches around the play the ball. And the abysmal cheating and penalties given in the super league games it is glaringly obvious that super league need to adopt two referees, a proper play the ball, with the foot, and to be penalised for stepping off the mark. And this needs adopting ASAP before the game is ruined completely! Just one problem? Where do we find the right quality of referee? I watched the Titans v Raiders yesterday and some of those PTB's were comical and so was some fake injuries trying to get a penalty, and don't get me on the amount of forward passes that the were ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dealwithit Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 When will SL/RFL come out and issue a statement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Bit of hysteria this like so much talk about rules, penalties and refs. It doesn't worry me too much and if the game was blighted by the number of penalties suggested on here I think you'd all be the first to complain. Two refs doesn't clean up everything and the NRL is neither rid of all this nor are they squeeky clean in any of these aspects. I watched every match from the NRL this weekend and the number of possible technical infringements around the ruck is just as great. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirk Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 3 hours ago, dealwithit said: When will SL/RFL come out and issue a statement! Now that is interesting? This issue really does need sorting! I think most supporters are fed up of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I would be interested in some real research into this, I assume some has been done. My initial thoughts are that the refs just let holding down go on in the NRL. To the point where there is less struggle to try and get a quick ptb or penalty. Attackers know penalties ain't coming and they tend to take the tackle and get up and orb in a more controlled way. This though, imho leads to a slower ruck with defences set more and a slightly more formulaic game. The ruck is controlled in favour of the defence. In SL I think the ruck is controlled in favour of the attacker. As a principle that is one I agree with. I think it creates more of a struggle from the attacker as the benefits of a quick ptb or a penalty are worth making the effort for. Where this becomes a challenge is that it causes two problems - 1. It looks Messer, and 2. By giving more penalties it actually slows the game down overall and makes it more fragmented. The advantages of a penalty when the ref has guessed also can have a big impact on games. One of the issues is that we would need a change in mindset over here. From fans in particular. Listen to the gripes when there is holding down. In the NRL there is substantial holding down and flopping late in the tackle. But it looks tidier and they give fewer penalties. I think we have seen real differences in internationals in particular, you can really tell the difference between an Oz ref and a UK one. Ultimately I think it depends on whether we want to favour the attack or the defence at the ruck. I'm ok with our current interpretation, but with a couple of tweaks I think we could make it tidier. The problem is that to enforce this you are asking for more penalties. It's a tough one, but I see a lot stuff in the NRL that really should be penalised. They simply ignore it. Is that what people want? Maybe it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 8 hours ago, The Future is League said: I watched the Titans v Raiders yesterday and some of those PTB's were comical and so was some fake injuries trying to get a penalty, and don't get me on the amount of forward passes that the were ignored. Yup. There is an awful lot lot stuff going on in these matches that would have fans having a fit if it happened over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Oxford said: Bit of hysteria this like so much talk about rules, penalties and refs. It doesn't worry me too much and if the game was blighted by the number of penalties suggested on here I think you'd all be the first to complain. Two refs doesn't clean up everything and the NRL is neither rid of all this nor are they squeeky clean in any of these aspects. I watched every match from the NRL this weekend and the number of possible technical infringements around the ruck is just as great. Is Rugby League the only sport in the world where the players are allowed to break the laws of the game and the defence for letting them do it is that if we didn't let them we would have to penalise them! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 It is a mess at the moment. I think only penalising in one direction - i.e. penalising the defending side in every messy ptb - is a disastrous policy. It incentivises attacking sides to make it a mess both by moving off the mark (both forwards and sidewards) and by falling over at every opportunity. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 We became obsessed with speeding up the ruck - seemingly at the expense of a proper PTB. Interestingly some of the worst milking for penalties in the NRL (of the 3 games I watched) this weekend came in the Canberra game..... Whitehead and Bateman with a 50% success rate. SL is inferior to the NRL in many ways - the shambles of a PTB and everything that surrounds it in SL is just another example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopping Mad Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Is PTB a basic skill in which junior players are coached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 11 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: I watched 3 NRL games this weekend and IMHO if a SL referee had reffed these games then the penalty count would have been greater in each game. In the Storm v Broncos game I counted at least half a dozen occassions in the first half when the defending team deliberately impeded the play the ball and the tackled player complained to the ref. It appears that NRL officials are quite prepared to let these things go where SL refs are too keen to penalise. If the players are are breaking the rules/laws of the game they should be penalised If the player doesn't play the ball properly, penalise him. If a player tries to slow down the PTB penalise him. If players are offside at the PTB penalise them. If the players don't understand the laws of the game they should be taught and the same with the coaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 11 hours ago, Damien said: One thing that is very obvious when watching a game at the ground is that on almost every play the ball some of the defending team is offside. This is noticeable with all teams but seems a lottery when the referees actually give a penalty for it. If you watch the ref often he will take the defending team back more than ten metres. A player slightly in front will still be ten metres back. I suppose the question is does being onside constitute being ten metres back or level with the ref? I've lost count of the number of times I've heard cries of 'offside' when the players are still onside because the ref has taken them eleven or twelve metres back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the punt Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I couldn't agree more with the original post! The play-the-ball rule is being honoured more by the breach than the observance and it's having serious consequences in my opinion for the reasons mentioned by other posters, there's no point repeating them. I am convinced that enforcing the play-the-ball would tidy up and speed up the game all in one go. The situation is spoiling what is, otherwise, a great sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 48 minutes ago, deluded pom? said: If you watch the ref often he will take the defending team back more than ten metres. A player slightly in front will still be ten metres back. I suppose the question is does being onside constitute being ten metres back or level with the ref? I've lost count of the number of times I've heard cries of 'offside' when the players are still onside because the ref has taken them eleven or twelve metres back. Sorry that doesn't make any sense. Wherever the ref stands is the offside line. If you stand in front then you are offside. If what you was saying was the case then every player would be 1-2 yards in front of the referee and would not be penalised. All very arbitrary and a player certainly is not expected to guess where the offside line is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCKonstantine Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Interestingly, yesterday Halifax were penalised twice while playing the ball for messing about. And rightly so IMO, but then where is the consistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleep1673 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 19 hours ago, Stirk said: So how would you solve the situation? Other than what I mentioned above? Speak to the players, tell them to play by the rules, or they will get told off. That's what they seem to be doing. Now be good boys & play by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, The Future is League said: If the players are are breaking the rules/laws of the game they should be penalised If the player doesn't play the ball properly, penalise him. If a player tries to slow down the PTB penalise him. If players are offside at the PTB penalise them. If the players don't understand the laws of the game they should be taught and the same with the coaches the problem is that this isnt the approach taken in the NRL. quite the opposite. But people are applauding the NRL ruck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: the problem is that this isnt the approach taken in the NRL. quite the opposite. But people are applauding the NRL ruck. The NRL did take this approach. In the early part of 2018 the NRL cracked down on the play the ball and ruck and penalties increased as a result. Certainly the play the ball by the tackled player improved during this period. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearenough Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 13 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said: tackled player, on regaining his feet, can drop the ball to the ground and then heel it backwards (see law 10 ) - and nor get called for a knock on? Oh, really Reading the rule its that bit that surprised me too, dropping the ball whilst regaining your feet should be given as a knock on but not if u have regained your feet first. From what ive seen of late dropping the ball at any point during ptb is always given as a knock on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Hopping Mad said: Is PTB a basic skill in which junior players are coached? Yes, and always has been. That's the galling part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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