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It’s Ottawa in 2020 says Eric Perez


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27 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

The measure according to Lenegan and the SL clubs was for clubs (Toulouse in this case) "The development of local players capable of playing at SL level,  a viable financial plan,  (paying) television coverage and a stadium and infrastructure that met necessary standards" I don't see TWP meeting any of these measures do you? If so let me know.

Although I won't hold my breath for a grown up answer.

SL clubs encourage grass roots which in the past was inspiring the "local populace" to play the game. This is a bit more formalised now with money spent on foundations to formally encourage the playing of the game locally in schools, community clubs, and academies to "develop" local players into SL quality players. The foundations are backed by £17.8 Million of SKY money that is how important it is so you are bang on right. As reported Mr. Argylle would not even buy a membership with Canada RL the country's RL development organisation.

"They" make a massive loss, are probably largely unknown across their country, as well as much of the UK outside the North, half the "crowds" are on freebie tickets, and the ground ain't that great and can't be used in the opening months of the season. "They" aren't getting these things right at all unless wishful thinking on here wants to invent such an idea. In order to replicate the "success" of TWP it needs a $$Billionaire to make up the massive trading losses. As Danny Lockwood observes how is it a "success" to not be able to play a third of the season at home, and why would any investors in NY or Ottowa clubs want to lose their money covering up big losses - that's if they really exist.

My guess is your just having a laugh with this post?

You have a point but we have a reality filter on here that blocks out reality. As was said of Catalans they may appear to be the  great success of French Rugby league, but they don't particularly inspire more kids to play the game at the grassroots. Over 12 years on the small French grassroots hasn't grown on the back of Les Catalans success and equally our community game here has shrunk somewhat over the 23 years since the start of Superleague in 1996.

It's pretty much absurd to believe that 3 "top down" RL clubs plying a foreign sport in North America are going to stimulate any grass roots growth at all. Never mind 10 years, and never mind again any professional quality players.

Wow. this person is depressing

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1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

The measure according to Lenegan and the SL clubs was for clubs (Toulouse in this case) "The development of local players capable of playing at SL level,  a viable financial plan,  (paying) television coverage and a stadium and infrastructure that met necessary standards"

Link?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

 I don't see TWP meeting any of these measures do you? If so let me know.

Although I won't hold my breath for a grown up answer.

You're a condescending #####.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

SL clubs encourage grass roots which in the past was inspiring the "local populace" to play the game. This is a bit more formalised now with money spent on foundations to formally encourage the playing of the game locally in schools, community clubs, and academies to "develop" local players into SL quality players. The foundations are backed by £17.8 Million of SKY money that is how important it is so you are bang on right. As reported Mr. Argylle would not even buy a membership with Canada RL the country's RL development organisation.

Are you still referring to that article where somebody was miffed because someone else didn't say hi in a crowd? What's a non playing "membership" worth? Is a hundred bucks going to make a difference to anyone? How f*cking hard is it to spell Argyle?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

"They" make a massive loss,

Their business, not anyone else's.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

are probably largely unknown across their country

By what measure? Prove it. I think most people with a vague interest in sports in Ontario know the exist, as well as some with no interest. I live two hours away from Toronto and people ask me about TWP. Beyond the borders of the province, and really the GTA, is pretty irrelevant in terms of "local market". 

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

as well as much of the UK outside the North

Doesn't matter, fans should show up to watch their home team. TWP are not selling tickets in the UK are they?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

half the "crowds" are on freebie tickets

Their business, not yours.

Guy comes in for free, buy two hot dogs and and two beers = profit. Up to TWP to decide how to get people in the door and how much to make off them the first time vs the hundredth time.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

and the ground ain't that great

Fans keep coming back = all that matters. There's a field, there's stands to watch. There's a place to buy beer and place to ###### it out. What more do you want? You're bitching about them losing money, isn't using an economically priced stadium a way to not do that? People ##### about teams playing in empty stadiums, isn't playing in Lamport vs BMO or Rogers Centre a way to not do that?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

and can't be used in the opening months of the season.

The season starts in the dead of winter bud. Whether there's a dome on the field until April or not, it's stupid to play outside in Canada until then. Well, the lower mainland in BC, but then you'd be bitching about flights wouldn't you?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

"They" aren't getting these things right at all unless wishful thinking on here wants to invent such an idea. 

You're a condescending #####.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

In order to replicate the "success" of TWP it needs a $$Billionaire to make up the massive trading losses.

So? Most sports teams are owned by rich people. Lots of sports teams lose money. It can be for pride, pleasure, taxes, who knows. Their business, not yours.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

As Danny Lockwood observes how is it a "success" to not be able to play a third of the season at home, and why would any investors in NY or Ottowa clubs want to lose their money covering up big losses - that's if they really exist.

What' wrong with playing only 2/3s of the season at home? 

Why does any sports owner lose money? - see above. Their business, not yours.

How hard is it to spell Ottawa? I have never seen it spelled wrong until multiple times on this website in the last week.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

My guess is your just having a laugh with this post?

You're a condescending #####.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

You have a point but we have a reality filter on here that blocks out reality.

You're a condescending #####.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

As was said of Catalans they may appear to be the  great success of French Rugby league, but they don't particularly inspire more kids to play the game at the grassroots. Over 12 years on the small French grassroots hasn't grown on the back of Les Catalans success and equally our community game here has shrunk somewhat over the 23 years since the start of Superleague in 1996.

The end of your second sentence rather cancels out the first. If the very heartland of the game can't grown how can anyone have an expectation of growth anywhere else? By your own statement you can tell that it's not a problem with "expansion" it's with the overall game.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

It's pretty much absurd to believe

You're a condescending #####.

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

that 3 "top down" RL clubs plying a foreign sport in North America are going to stimulate any grass roots growth at all.

Why does it need to? Why can't you be happy with thousands more enjoying the game that you like? Why can't you be happy that tens more players can make a full time living playing the game you like?

Why do you think that these new clubs sustained existence won't inspire some grass roots? Do you have so little faith in the game? What's wrong with waiting for people to say "we want to play this game we like watching" instead of begging people to "please play this game, we like it so you should too"?

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

Never mind 10 years, and never mind again any professional quality players.

Exactly. Never mind. Let people try their best and enjoy any benefits that may come.

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10 hours ago, TheReaper said:

If the very heartland of the game can't grown how can anyone have an expectation of growth anywhere else? By your own statement you can tell that it's not a problem with "expansion" it's with the overall game.

Why do you think that these new clubs sustained existence won't inspire some grass roots? Do you have so little faith in the game?

This is the core issue and no amount of name calling (which I am used to constantly getting with "idiot" the main repetition) can change the realities or strengthen your own point. The hard fact is that you cannot expand the professional game without professional quality players. You cannot up the number of Superleague clubs by two or four without finding 60 or 120 more quality players. You cannot pretend paying average players  high salaries makes them quality entertaining players. Last time we had 14 clubs in SL the bottom three were a total shambles as they didn't have the quality players.

I did not make the point that in France the success of Les Catalans on the field has simply not inspired adults off the field to organise grass roots clubs or kids to flock to play in these new grassroots clubs. I didn't make the point Grid Iron conversions didn't work, it's just a fact as is TWP not actually bothering to work with Canada RL to develop anyone. They have given up before they even started.

Hull has two SL clubs dating to well over a century ago, and they have had fantastic players down the years. In recent years the fall off in quality lads playing the game led to one of the two academies closing because there weren't enough decent young players to stock them and more importantly no quality coaches to teach them, HKR therefore import nearly all their squad and only a third of the Hull squad is locally developed players. 

Hull does not suffer strong opposition from other sports either. Hull City FC are obviously a major club but not top division regulars. Hull is quite an RL city still, Hull have won cups in recent years, but junior RL is not inspired accordingly, so why would kids in America take up he game? More to the point who would actually coach and teach them?

It's not a matter of "faith" it's a reality that North America aren't producing and won't produce quality RL players. Sure they can get up to 10,000 fans going to RL games, but that's irrelevant. If they do not produce players then clubs like Toronto have to buy up a load of Leigh players. Clubs like New York may have to buy up Salford's roster as Salford appear not to have any money left. If Ottawa get into the league they too are looking longer term to be predators on the English player pool which is why Mr. Perez currently tries to tell us he is going to make Ottawa a grassroots club - but his record at Toronto really does call that out.

There is no need to demonise me, I merely pass a view that is held on here to a point and off this forum held by very many people indeed. I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness, I'm not a troll, I'm reflecting the reality I discuss with very many fans not on this forum that every additional North American club with money is one more English club pushed down the league pushing all the rest down, and a loss of quality players from our clubs here, and a loss of interest amongst their supporters. 

Censorship is a terrible thing my friend do not try to bully me out of the debate please, I have supported the people who run this forum as long as they have published their fine journals and way longer back than that.

My view is very widely held by many fans I talk to here....It should be heard.

Let's wait and see whether the Championship clubs want to go on being bit part players to this charade??

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3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

This is the core issue and no amount of name calling (which I am used to constantly getting with "idiot" the main repetition) can change the realities or strengthen your own point. The hard fact is that you cannot expand the professional game without professional quality players. You cannot up the number of Superleague clubs by two or four without finding 60 or 120 more quality players. You cannot pretend paying average players  high salaries makes them quality entertaining players. Last time we had 14 clubs in SL the bottom three were a total shambles as they didn't have the quality players.

I did not make the point that in France the success of Les Catalans on the field has simply not inspired adults off the field to organise grass roots clubs or kids to flock to play in these new grassroots clubs. I didn't make the point Grid Iron conversions didn't work, it's just a fact as is TWP not actually bothering to work with Canada RL to develop anyone. They have given up before they even started.

Hull has two SL clubs dating to well over a century ago, and they have had fantastic players down the years. In recent years the fall off in quality lads playing the game led to one of the two academies closing because there weren't enough decent young players to stock them and more importantly no quality coaches to teach them, HKR therefore import nearly all their squad and only a third of the Hull squad is locally developed players. 

Hull does not suffer strong opposition from other sports either. Hull City FC are obviously a major club but not top division regulars. Hull is quite an RL city still, Hull have won cups in recent years, but junior RL is not inspired accordingly, so why would kids in America take up he game? More to the point who would actually coach and teach them?

It's not a matter of "faith" it's a reality that North America aren't producing and won't produce quality RL players. Sure they can get up to 10,000 fans going to RL games, but that's irrelevant. If they do not produce players then clubs like Toronto have to buy up a load of Leigh players. Clubs like New York may have to buy up Salford's roster as Salford appear not to have any money left. If Ottawa get into the league they too are looking longer term to be predators on the English player pool which is why Mr. Perez tries to tell us he is going to make Ottawa a grassroots club - but his record at Toronto really does call that out.

There is no need to demonise me, I merely pass a view that is held on here to a point and off this forum held by very many people indeed. I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness, I'm not a troll, I'm reflecting the reality I discuss with very many fans not on this forum that every additional North American club with money is one more English club pushed down the league pushing all the rest down, and a loss of quality players from our clubs here, and a loss of interest amongst their supporters. 

Censorship is a terrible thing my friend do not try to bully me out of the debate please, I have supported the people who run this forum as long as they have published their fine journals and way longer back than that.

My view is very widely held by many fans I talk to here....It should be heard.

Let's wait and see whether the Championship clubs want to go on being bit part players to this charade??

Well, Perez’s approach to getting this through is a bit like May’s wooing of the DUP - he’s offering the L1 clubs money. Apparently the offer is 10% of the money that they get from the ‘distribution’ as they progress. So, once (if) they get to SL, that would be about 180k to share between them (on the current deal, and I’m not sure what L1 and championship clubs get). Of course, that could be different come the next TV deal.

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4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

This is the core issue and no amount of name calling (which I am used to constantly getting with "idiot" the main repetition) can change the realities or strengthen your own point. The hard fact is that you cannot expand the professional game without professional quality players. You cannot up the number of Superleague clubs by two or four without finding 60 or 120 more quality players. You cannot pretend paying average players  high salaries makes them quality entertaining players.

"Average" part time players, given the pay to be full time, with better coaches, certainly CAN improve their game. No all, but some.

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Last time we had 14 clubs in SL the bottom three were a total shambles as they didn't have the quality players.

I think most people would agree that an evenly matched game at ANY level is entertaining. The problem is the distribution of players. When teams at the bottom are in a different league financially than the top teams, their overall squads will reflect that. But if all teams are like Toronto and can afford anything they need to, the "quality" will level itself out eventually. It's easier when you have draft lotteries and expansion drafts, but given time it will level out.

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I did not make the point that in France the success of Les Catalans on the field has simply not inspired adults off the field to organise grass roots clubs or kids to flock to play in these new grassroots clubs.

Yes you did, you literally wrote that in your post.

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I didn't make the point Grid Iron conversions didn't work, it's just a fact as is TWP not actually bothering to work with Canada RL to develop anyone. They have given up before they even started.

 

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Hull has two SL clubs dating to well over a century ago, and they have had fantastic players down the years. In recent years the fall off in quality lads playing the game led to one of the two academies closing because there weren't enough decent young players to stock them and more importantly no quality coaches to teach them, HKR therefore import nearly all their squad and only a third of the Hull squad is locally developed players. 

So? Why does a professional team in the upper levels of the game NEED to have locally developed players? Does Manchester United? This is not representative rugby, this is professional rugby.  

(I fully realize that it can be in a clubs interest to develop players, for monetary and marketing reasons. It is up to a club to realize what is in their best interest or not, and to act in such a way or not.)

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Hull does not suffer strong opposition from other sports either. Hull City FC are obviously a major club but not top division regulars. Hull is quite an RL city still, Hull have won cups in recent years, but junior RL is not inspired accordingly, so why would kids in America take up he game?

Why do they need to (see my points above and below about "quality" of players)? And if they want to, why does TWP need to be the ones running it? There are already RL clubs in Toronto to join if somebody wants to.

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

More to the point who would actually coach and teach them?

It's not a matter of "faith" it's a reality that North America aren't producing

Not a surprise, or expectation of anyone. Let the club maximize it's chance of survival by making the big league, so it can use that stability to accomplish other goals. On field success should always be the first goal of a professional sports team. 

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

and won't produce

What are tomorrow's lottery numbers, while you've got that crystal ball out?

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

quality RL players. Sure they can get up to 10,000 fans going to RL games, but that's irrelevant.

Is it? Is it really irrelevant?  You don't care that 10,000 MORE people like the game since the club isn't doing everything else you want it to do? Rather flippant to blow off ten thousand new fans I'd say?

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

If they do not produce players then clubs like Toronto have to buy up a load of Leigh players. Clubs like New York may have to buy up Salford's roster as Salford appear not to have any money left.

This is not going to happen. Players will come from all over the place. Say at most ten teams lose 2 players. Your telling me clubs don't have two guys down the depth chart that are almost as good as the guy above them, just waiting for a chance? 

If the game is ONLY worth watching with exactly the "quality" it has now, that's a bigger overall problem than deciding to add one or two teams at various levels. 

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

If Ottawa get into the league they too are looking longer term to be predators on the English player pool which is why Mr. Perez currently tries to tell us he is going to make Ottawa a grassroots club - but his record at Toronto really does call that out.

Except that he said explicitly that this club would run differently than Toronto.  So he's taking into account that it didn't work out that way at TWP, and the hope is to do that here instead.

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

There is no need to demonise me, I merely pass a view that is held on here to a point and off this forum held by very many people indeed. I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness, I'm not a troll, I'm reflecting the reality 

I never claimed you were a troll. I said you were condescending, because you try to dictate what is "reality" or "a fantasy" to other people, while dismissing or ignoring points you don't like. I called you condescending for your posting style and behaviour, not because of the points you make. I do think some of those are way off base, but I argue with those. 

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I discuss with very many fans not on this forum that every additional North American club with money is one more English club pushed down the league pushing all the rest down, and a loss of quality players from our clubs here, and a loss of interest amongst their supporters. 

And yet you can hardly convince anyone on here...

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Censorship is a terrible thing my friend do not try to bully me out of the debate please,

That is exactly what you to people by calling them "fantasists" or dickishly pronouncing what is or isn't reality and what people can and can't take seriously. 

4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I have supported the people who run this forum as long as they have published their fine journals and way longer back than that.

My view is very widely held by many fans I talk to here....It should be heard.

Let's wait and see whether the Championship clubs want to go on being bit part players to this charade??

 

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14 minutes ago, TBone said:

Well, Perez’s approach to getting this through is a bit like May’s wooing of the DUP - he’s offering the L1 clubs money. Apparently the offer is 10% of the money that they get from the ‘distribution’ as they progress. So, once (if) they get to SL, that would be about 180k to share between them (on the current deal, and I’m not sure what L1 and championship clubs get). Of course, that could be different come the next TV deal.

That seems like a good enough offer and money always talks in Rugby League. Fresh money coming into the game is always good.

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7 minutes ago, Damien said:

That seems like a good enough offer and money always talks in Rugby League. Fresh money coming into the game is always good.

It is NOT fresh money, it is what a member club gets as its distribution of the TV money.

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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:14 AM, JonM said:

how many players did Leigh lose to Toronto?

absolutely 0 from what we have been told since day 1. They were all washed up, over the hill players that they didn't want so no loss to them right?

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7 minutes ago, TBone said:

It is NOT fresh money, it is what a member club gets as its distribution of the TV money.

I know. It's still fresh money going to other clubs which otherwise wouldn't be. Ottawa presumably must get income from elsewhere to offset this.

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

I know. It's still fresh money going to other clubs which otherwise wouldn't be. Ottawa presumably must get income from elsewhere to offset this.

Presumably. However, by the time they hit the SL there may well not be a L1 and, therefore, no clubs to share it with.

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People confuse produce and develop, they are two different things.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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16 hours ago, The Parksider said:

half the "crowds" are on freebie tickets

My wife and I drive 2 hours each way and have paid full price for tickets to each of the 8 games we've gone to over the past two seasons. Please tell me where these free tickets can be found. My wallet would appreciate it.

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31 minutes ago, themenace said:

My wife and I drive 2 hours each way and have paid full price for tickets to each of the 8 games we've gone to over the past two seasons. Please tell me where these free tickets can be found. My wallet would appreciate it.

Its false news and an outright lie intentionally perpetrated by the Anti Expansionists.  Some tickets have been given to sponsors etc. and they then  latched onto this and then said at times that  'All', 'Most', 'Some', 'A Majority' etc. (ad nauseum) of tickets were free...it is one of the ways that the Anti Expansionists try to undermine the Wolfpack.   

Don't buy into it.. I am also a season ticket holder for all seasons and have paid for my tickets also...as has everyone else.   Sometimes they (TWP) give season ticket holders some breaks etc. Bring a Friend Promotion.  The Anti Expansionists say these are free tickets also.

They have also falsely accused us of fake crowd sizes etc.  They will never quit; they have a deep seated jealousy of our Club.

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2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

 Sometimes they (TWP) give season ticket holders some breaks etc. Bring a Friend Promotion.  The Anti Expansionists say these are free tickets also.

We do that as well as I'm sure other clubs do. I believe we've even done a 2 friends for a fiver offer before. Personally I don't see that it really matters. Giving away tickets or selling them cheap gets people into the ground that otherwise wouldn't be there. In Toronto it gets potential new fans in and that's surely a good thing. In terms of at Hull, I think we tend to do those kind of deals when it's the Catalans game to make up for the lack of away fans. Might as well give away cheap tickets and get bums on the 14,000 seats that would be empty anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Its false news and an outright lie intentionally perpetrated by the Anti Expansionists.  Some tickets have been given to sponsors etc. and they then  latched onto this and then said at times that  'All', 'Most', 'Some', 'A Majority' etc. (ad nauseum) of tickets were free...it is one of the ways that the Anti Expansionists try to undermine the Wolfpack.   

Don't buy into it.. I am also a season ticket holder for all seasons and have paid for my tickets also...as has everyone else.   Sometimes they (TWP) give season ticket holders some breaks etc. Bring a Friend Promotion.  The Anti Expansionists say these are free tickets also.

They have also falsely accused us of fake crowd sizes etc.  They will never quit; they have a deep seated jealousy of our Club.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42702631

"Chief executive and club founder Eric Perez secured the use of 10,000-seater Lamport Stadium in Toronto, and last year average home gates were a healthy 7,000 (though half of those attending had complimentary tickets)."

If they're admitting 50% of the tickets are free it probably means 75% of them are free

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46 minutes ago, MEXICO WILL PAY said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42702631

"Chief executive and club founder Eric Perez secured the use of 10,000-seater Lamport Stadium in Toronto, and last year average home gates were a healthy 7,000 (though half of those attending had complimentary tickets)."

If they're admitting 50% of the tickets are free it probably means 75% of them are free

They aren't admitting any such thing there, the BBC reporter is asserting that half of the tickets were complimentary which is something altogether different.

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18 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

They aren't admitting any such thing there, the BBC reporter is asserting that half of the tickets were complimentary which is something altogether different.

Considering the person who wrote that article clearly spoke to/interviewed the Wolfpack commercial manager, who do you think that he got the figure from?

 

Just to be clear, I don't think that there's anything wrong with giving away tickets to seats that would otherwise be unsold.

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1 hour ago, MEXICO WILL PAY said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-42702631

"Chief executive and club founder Eric Perez secured the use of 10,000-seater Lamport Stadium in Toronto, and last year average home gates were a healthy 7,000 (though half of those attending had complimentary tickets)."

If they're admitting 50% of the tickets are free it probably means 75% of them are free

This story has been previously proven as false news reporting....you are repeating and posting false news...hopefully not intentionally.

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1 hour ago, MEXICO WILL PAY said:

You are just making things up now. There has been no disproval of that statement.

The onus of proof is on the person who makes the statement, not on those of us who question it.

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7 hours ago, themenace said:

My wife and I drive 2 hours each way and have paid full price for tickets to each of the 8 games we've gone to over the past two seasons. Please tell me where these free tickets can be found. My wallet would appreciate it.

Yep this will be my 3rd full season. .. whatever number of games that is.
Anyway, I've used 4 bring a friend free ticket in those years.

The old "they're all free tickets" BS is getting really old and almost at the "tin foil hat" level.

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5 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The onus of proof is on the person who makes the statement, not on those of us who question it.

 

1 hour ago, MEXICO WILL PAY said:

You are just making things up now. There has been no disproval of that statement.

Why don't you just tweet Perez and ASK HIM IF HE SAID IT...OR ARE YOU AFRAID OF SOMETHING Amigo?

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4 minutes ago, PatrickB said:

Yep this will be my 3rd full season. .. whatever number of games that is.
Anyway, I've used 4 bring a friend free ticket in those years.

The old "they're all free tickets" BS is getting really old and almost at the tin foil hat level.

Its sickening the level that some of them reach down for in the gutter......just get ready for the first home game, if we sell it out they  will say 2 or 3 thousand at most....very troubling.

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