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Who will you vote for?  

84 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will you vote for?

    • Conservatives
      2
    • Labour
      10
    • Lib Dems
      13
    • UKIP
      3
    • Brexit Party
      26
    • SNP
      2
    • Plaid Cymru
      1
    • Change UK (formerly Independent Group)
      14
    • Greens
      12
    • Other
      1
  2. 2. Is this a different party from who you’d vote for if Brexit didn’t exist?

    • Yes, my vote is different because of Brexit
      48
    • No, this is who I’d vote for if Brexit suddenly disappeared
      36


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39 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think that’s a possibility but it doesn’t mean a “Remain Alliance” is necessary to get past their total or to neuter that talk. You only need to remember “Frexit” or see today’s Spanish results coverage to see that the British media love to give the far right a victory no matter what the truth is.

I agree.  A Remain Alliance would be utterly pointless as it would require quite major sacrifices by parties.  For example, which region would other parties stop in to allow Change UK a chance at a seat?  If none, then Change UK are out as a part of the "alliance".  Greens and Lib Dems?  In East Anglia, the best chance of an MEP seat from the two goes to Green based on 2014 returns, would the Lib Dems really give up the chance to campaign and promote the Lib Dem values?

The best course is to just let it happen and be relentless in pointing out that the Brexit Party STILL won't say where all their money has come from, they're refusing to publish a manifesto and it's being run by a racist xenophobe with a track record of vile policies.  There's clear evidence he wants to privatise the NHS, force the UK to take sub-standard imports to make rich people more money, including chlorinated chicken, and many more vile little policies from a vile little man. But people don't care because "Brexit means Brexit".

A vote for the Brexit Party = a vote for a racist wannabe facist who is in it for himself.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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8 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

Why isn't there a 'remain' party doing just that, advocating a 'hard remain'?

Why are all the opponents of Brexit still hiding behind a 2nd referendum?

There were 6 million signatures on a revoke A50 petition wasn't there? 

In my eyes those opposing Brexit and calling for a 2nd vote are just wishy washy, not able to have the courage of their convictions and say what they really mean. 

Because a "remain party" that does nothing but "remain" would be a one-trick pony there for nothing other than a narrow extreme that ignores everything else that's truly important.

If you want a Leave v Remain fight-off in a democratic poll then I have a very good idea for you, it's called a referendum. Voting for electoral candidates based on one issue that could go away in a few weeks is just daft.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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14 minutes ago, ckn said:

Because a "remain party" that does nothing but "remain" would be a one-trick pony there for nothing other than a narrow extreme that ignores everything else that's truly important.

If you want a Leave v Remain fight-off in a democratic poll then I have a very good idea for you, it's called a referendum. Voting for electoral candidates based on one issue that could go away in a few weeks is just daft.

The Brexit party is a 1 trick pony and seems to be polling quite well.

The EU elections may be turning into a de facto referendum as another official one seems a long way off.

I just don't get why people wishing to remain don't just call it out for what it is, they want to remain. Why not campaign for what you want and see how popular your message is?

What happens if there is another official referendum and the remain side lose again?  

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11 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

What happens if there is another official referendum and the remain side lose again?  

As a staunch Remainer I would accept the public choice as it is now based on a clearer idea on waht "Leave" actually means. I would shake my head at the collective desicion to punt the entire country in the plums and start campaigning to rejoin the EU

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5 minutes ago, Shadow said:

As a staunch Remainer I would accept the public choice as it is now based on a clearer idea on waht "Leave" actually means. I would shake my head at the collective desicion to punt the entire country in the plums and start campaigning to rejoin the EU

If the nation now voted Leave then we deserve everything we get.  It's cold in Scotland but I may consider moving there to vote resoundingly for Scottish independence and not give a damn about the hypocrisy of that vote.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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16 minutes ago, Shadow said:

As a staunch Remainer I would accept the public choice as it is now based on a clearer idea on waht "Leave" actually means. I would shake my head at the collective desicion to punt the entire country in the plums and start campaigning to rejoin the EU

But as a staunch remainer why are you even entertaining the idea of another referendum? Why are your party, who claim to be a remain party, not campaigning for exactly that, remain?

Why isn't there ANY party purporting to be on the side of remain campaigning openly and 100% on a ticket to revoking A50 and remaining in the EU? Even the Greens are after a 2nd vote whilst criticising the decision to leave. I just don't get it. 

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1 minute ago, Private Baldrick said:

But as a staunch remainer why are you even entertaining the idea of another referendum? Why are your party, who claim to be a remain party, not campaigning for exactly that, remain?

Why isn't there ANY party purporting to be on the side of remain campaigning openly and 100% on a ticket to revoking A50 and remaining in the EU? Even the Greens are after a 2nd vote whilst criticising the decision to leave. I just don't get it. 

That'd be electoral suicide.  We had a referendum into this excrement storm, we need one to get out of it.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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8 minutes ago, ckn said:

That'd be electoral suicide.  We had a referendum into this excrement storm, we need one to get out of it.

Oh yeah, a political party standing up for what it believes in, standing up for it's principles, standing up to promote the wishes of what some claim to be the majority view in this country now, standing up to protect the future of the our children and grandchildren in an open and tolerant society, protecting the interests of all those EU nationals who have made the U.K their home...…. doing all that would be 'political suicide'.... really?

If that is what you believe in then fight for your beliefs, don't delegate your responsibility.

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Just now, Private Baldrick said:

Oh yeah, a political party standing up for what it believes in, standing up for it's principles, standing up to promote the wishes of what some claim to be the majority view in this country now, standing up to protect the future of the our children and grandchildren in an open and tolerant society, protecting the interests of all those EU nationals who have made the U.K their home...…. doing all that would be 'political suicide'.... really?

If that is what you believe in then fight for your beliefs, don't delegate your responsibility.

Yes, it would, otherwise it's politicians deciding that the public's views don't matter.  The politicians threw us a rancid pile of unintelligble mess for the first referendum and actively allowed corruption, lies and criminal behaviour.  Let's admit it as such and do it again with full knowledge of it all, including writing jail time into the referendum bill for criminal behaviour.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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1 hour ago, Private Baldrick said:

Why isn't there a 'remain' party doing just that, advocating a 'hard remain'?

Why are all the opponents of Brexit still hiding behind a 2nd referendum?

There were 6 million signatures on a revoke A50 petition wasn't there? 

In my eyes those opposing Brexit and calling for a 2nd vote are just wishy washy, not able to have the courage of their convictions and say what they really mean. 

This isn't true.

I want us to remain in the European Union but I don't want a democratic decision to be overturned without another democratic decision.

I think there is evidence that the mood in the country has moved and is moving which is the only reason I think a 2nd referendum should even be a possibility. 

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5 minutes ago, ckn said:

Yes, it would, otherwise it's politicians deciding that the public's views don't matter.  The politicians threw us a rancid pile of unintelligble mess for the first referendum and actively allowed corruption, lies and criminal behaviour.  Let's admit it as such and do it again with full knowledge of it all, including writing jail time into the referendum bill for criminal behaviour.

Like they haven't already?

The first referendum was purely advisory. M.P's are our representatives, not delegates. Like I have said previously they should act in our best interests and not hide behind 'public votes' or 'confirmatory referendums'.

The EU elections offer a perfect chance to test the perception that we wish to remain. My side of the argument seems to be polling quite well with it's clear unambiguous message, the remain side for whatever reason just don't seem to have the courage of their convictions. 

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9 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

This isn't true.

I want us to remain in the European Union but I don't want a democratic decision to be overturned without another democratic decision.

I think there is evidence that the mood in the country has moved and is moving which is the only reason I think a 2nd referendum should even be a possibility. 

Ah, so that is what democracy is, having votes until you get the result you like? 

If 'the mood' in the country is going the way you say, why not put it to the test? What better elections than the EU elections to gauge public opinion?

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1 minute ago, Private Baldrick said:

Like they haven't already?

The first referendum was purely advisory. M.P's are our representatives, not delegates. Like I have said previously they should act in our best interests and not hide behind 'public votes' or 'confirmatory referendums'.

The EU elections offer a perfect chance to test the perception that we wish to remain. My side of the argument seems to be polling quite well with it's clear unambiguous message, the remain side for whatever reason just don't seem to have the courage of their convictions. 

They're not, you know.  The outright "leave" vote is around the same as the actual 2014 result.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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6 minutes ago, ckn said:

They're not, you know.  The outright "leave" vote is around the same as the actual 2014 result.

Which, considering the 2014 result showed the leave vote as 'winners', is what I called 'polling quite well.' 

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1 minute ago, Private Baldrick said:

Which, considering the 2014 result showed the leave vote as 'winners', is what I called 'polling quite well.' 

If you look at the press and media coverage, you'd think that it was an utter drubbing for anyone thinking of "remain" though.  It doesn't help that all of the radio I listened to before 10am was full of hard-Brexiteers getting an unchallenged run at stuff so patently false that even Donald Trump would be shying away from saying it.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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10 minutes ago, ckn said:

If you look at the press and media coverage, you'd think that it was an utter drubbing for anyone thinking of "remain" though.  It doesn't help that all of the radio I listened to before 10am was full of hard-Brexiteers getting an unchallenged run at stuff so patently false that even Donald Trump would be shying away from saying it.

That is why you (as in remain) need to have, especially in the EU elections, a party or group championing what the remain side actually want. Your side is allowing the leave side unfettered publicity and valuable air time. Your side appears weak and ineffectual because for whatever reason, is afraid to say what it believes in. It still peddles  the fudge and muddle of a 2nd vote or no 2nd vote, peoples choice or confirmatory vote, another general election or no general election... and so on. There is no clear unified remain message.

Not 1 party who think that remaining is the best policy have had the nerve to say so. As for your previous comment of it being political suicide to do so, what have you got to lose when the polls have the main remain parties polling in single figures?

 

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28 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

That is why you (as in remain) need to have, especially in the EU elections, a party or group championing what the remain side actually want. Your side is allowing the leave side unfettered publicity and valuable air time. Your side appears weak and ineffectual because for whatever reason, is afraid to say what it believes in. It still peddles  the fudge and muddle of a 2nd vote or no 2nd vote, peoples choice or confirmatory vote, another general election or no general election... and so on. There is no clear unified remain message.

Not 1 party who think that remaining is the best policy have had the nerve to say so. As for your previous comment of it being political suicide to do so, what have you got to lose when the polls have the main remain parties polling in single figures?

 

And yet the party that seems to be taking the leave vote by storm has not bothered to go tot he trouble of actually publishing a manifesto so people can understand what they are being asked to vote for. 

Just as in the referendum people arebeing asked to vote on vague promises with no concrete policies.

As a matter of interest what is your understanding of the Brexit party's policy on Human Rights and trade with China? What is their position on supporting the refugees fleeing the middle east and finding themselves in Cyprus. Where do they stand on the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Directive?

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7 minutes ago, Shadow said:

And yet the party that seems to be taking the leave vote by storm has not bothered to go tot he trouble of actually publishing a manifesto so people can understand what they are being asked to vote for. 

Just as in the referendum people arebeing asked to vote on vague promises with no concrete policies.

As a matter of interest what is your understanding of the Brexit party's policy on Human Rights and trade with China? What is their position on supporting the refugees fleeing the middle east and finding themselves in Cyprus. Where do they stand on the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Directive?

If the EU elections take place then for me it is the ideal opportunity to register my protest. The EU elections give me 'a free go' at giving the established parties a little reminder as to what they promised and to what they have actually achieved. In 2014 I voted UKIP in order to put pressure on to get a referendum. This year I will be voting for the Brexit party to put pressure on to get the referendum result honoured.

I am not voting for the next UK government or for my local council. The EU elections will be for protesting my views, as they will for a great many of others no doubt. The position of the Brexit party on the issues you raised will have no relevance to me, a stance which will no doubt many will criticise.

My vote is to send a wake up call to the mainstream: implement what you promised you would, or face the consequences at the ballot box.

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1 hour ago, Private Baldrick said:

Ah, so that is what democracy is, having votes until you get the result you like? 

If 'the mood' in the country is going the way you say, why not put it to the test? What better elections than the EU elections to gauge public opinion?

Do you object to us voting every 5 years for different governments? Shouldn't we just do it once and then accept the result?

A second referendum is only possible and desirable because of the flawed nature of the first one which is the real reason chaos has ensued.

Another one would by its very nature be much clearer than the first because it would be actual concrete proposals (May's deal, no deal and remaining) being voted on. The fact that we have a situation where Brexiters can't agree on whether May's deal is actually Brexit or not (it quite clearly is) demonstrates all too well the absurdity of the situation.

Now that the reality of what Brexit might be is much clearer, I think the public should be able to have their say if they have changed their mind. If they still decide to go ahead with Brexit then so be it, but at least everyone could agree what was voted on.

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16 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Do you object to us voting every 5 years for different governments? Shouldn't we just do it once and then accept the result?

A second referendum is only possible and desirable because of the flawed nature of the first one which is the real reason chaos has ensued.

Another one would by its very nature be much clearer than the first because it would be actual concrete proposals (May's deal, no deal and remaining) being voted on. The fact that we have a situation where Brexiters can't agree on whether May's deal is actually Brexit or not (it quite clearly is) demonstrates all too well the absurdity of the situation.

Now that the reality of what Brexit might be is much clearer, I think the public should be able to have their say if they have changed their mind. If they still decide to go ahead with Brexit then so be it, but at least everyone could agree what was voted on.

I don't object at all about electing a government every 5 years or so, because that is what the system is. As for the remainder of your post maybe that should be discussed on another thread.

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Just now, Private Baldrick said:

I don't object at all about electing a government every 5 years or so, because that is what the system is. As for the remainder of your post maybe that should be discussed on another thread.

I agree but with regards to this thread, the EU elections are not a proxy for a second referendum for the reasons I stated: there is no clear 2nd ref choice. 

One thing the Brexit party has got right is by making it a single issue protest. 

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10 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I agree but with regards to this thread, the EU elections are not a proxy for a second referendum for the reasons I stated: there is no clear 2nd ref choice. 

One thing the Brexit party has got right is by making it a single issue protest. 

Which again brings me to my question as to why there is no single issue voice from the remain side in these elections? The charge that leave means many different things to many people is still a perfectly valid argument but it would appear that the overriding end result of Brexit is enough to concentrate the leave vote. The remain side should have a simple unambiguous message of stopping Brexit, but they haven't. They continue to hide behind a second vote.

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4 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

Which again brings me to my question as to why there is no single issue voice from the remain side in these elections? The charge that leave means many different things to many people is still a perfectly valid argument but it would appear that the overriding end result of Brexit is enough to concentrate the leave vote. The remain side should have a simple unambiguous message of stopping Brexit, but they haven't. They continue to hide behind a second vote.

Maybe they are taking the European Elections seriously as an election not as a means of grandstanding. 

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6 minutes ago, Shadow said:

Maybe they are taking the European Elections seriously as an election not as a means of grandstanding. 

Maybe, but when Mr Farage's grinning face is all over the papers and news media on the day after the elections, don't be complaining too much about the result.  

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26 minutes ago, Private Baldrick said:

Maybe, but when Mr Farage's grinning face is all over the papers and news media on the day after the elections, don't be complaining too much about the result.  

Will you be pleased  to see the vile bigot being so enthused by your vote?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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