Toronto Affect Still to be felt

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

Great post, there's one problem with what you said.

Trying to graft these new and glamorous teams onto the existing small time setup isn't likely to attract the required new fans in the UK, because they can't overcome the game's image of being a small northern sport for northerners that way.  They could in a whole new setup which doesn't include the small time away fan-dependent traditional clubs, but only then.

Has Scotchy asked you about how Leeds,Wigan and Saints will remain in your big new RL world ?

[TheReaper]

49 minutes ago, Hemel Stag said:

"A team's identity is based on where it plays" - TOWolfpack have played mostly in the UK?

Meaning Lamport Stadium...  IE where they serve their fans.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Has Scotchy asked you about how Leeds,Wigan and Saints will remain in your big new RL world ?

They'd remain right where they are, playing the same opponents as always in the same league as always.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Big Picture said:

They're remain right where they are, playing the same opponents as always in the same league as always.

Well next time you bump into Scotchy on here , tell him will you 

[RobertAM]

But we have Wolfpack Beer!

[Smudger06]

They love the Northern Union, they don't even know they do.......they hate the North of England with a passion 'small time this........small town that'.......'Can't afford this.....xenophobia that'...we know who'll get the blame when it all goes pair shaped......not the oh so glamourous teams with the millionaire / billionaire (don't know the difference, that's why us working class broke away from Yawnion in the 1st Place  probably) owners, it'll be us fans (who need replacing anyway, apparently) 

[winnyason]

6 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Hey buddy! If it wasn't for the M62  corridor you wouldn't have a team. When you are in a position to start dictating what should be,I'll let you know.

Exactly now when will widnes and leigh be back in top flight kick catalans out bring nothing to comp.  i prefer my northern union comp any day if week.

Just not sure when leigh and widnes will go broke.

 

Kind regards parky 

 

[winnyason]

1 minute ago, SL17 said:

They won't.

Thats great .. i really hate this pie in the sky usa stuff too. I can't wait til widnes fans online bully martin offiah to donate again very professional. 

I hate the glamorous dragons running around will all these imports playing in spain they bring nothing. When will they see they light. 

Kind regards parky 

[The Parksider]

15 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

North American financial investment in the game could actually be found through a variety of ways. TV as you say is the obvious - but Sponsorship & Direct investment - rich people sometimes like to have a toy to splash their money on, football and RU certainly have it, in that world RL is relatively cheap. 

Sorry Tommy but your changing the goalposts as everyone does to get around the reality. The criteria for bringing extra money into the game as a whole is develop more pro-players to stock more teams and sell those extra pro teams to TV for more money. Then put that money in the pool for all to share.

It isn’t overseas owners personal  “sponsorship”, it isn’t “just rich people wanting a toy” we need. If it was, all Argylle or any rich person has to do is sponsor Superleague for £11,000,000 a season or better still just offer the 11 other clubs £1Million each for the purchase of a place in Superleague. Then they get to play with their toy without having to do the hard work and develop any players or TV deals.

You’ll end up with a total farce. And the rejection of North American clubs is exactly that – to stop a load of alleged rich playboys coming in, offering nothing of substance, then swanning off when they get bored. 

6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

They represent the city of Toronto, by playing for the team and bringing victory to the city. Same as all the players of *whatever* nationalities that play for the Leafs, raptors and blue Jays. Just like all the non-english players playing for Man U or whoever. That how pro sports work, I fail to see how.................

Of course you conveniently fail to see that the pro-sports you quote do not have a problem with a lack of quality players. Like Tommy above you see only what you want to see and not reality. What players we have are just enough to support the game here. You lot leach off the game here you'll suck the blood out of it mate.

3 hours ago, RobertAM said:

who cares about all this claptrap..I just want to enjoy the game of Rugby League and watch it spread across the world. 

Now that is the claptrap that has spoiled this forum for years now.

2 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I eagerly await the decision on these new clubs. Hopefully Elstone et al will see the potential in what they have to offer. We need new blood.......... 

“In 2019 Penrith will field a staggering 9000 junior players across a record 580 teams, including 54 female sides”. As I understand it TWP’s junior development programme still stands at zero players in their third year, but worse than that they haven't signed to Canada RL to even start any development. So no "new blood" at all in Toronto now or in the future eh? What an offer that is!!

[Kayakman]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It's you guy's in Canada who want to join us in England, I can't recall the invitation ever being given!

Don't recall you fellas ever complaining in WW1 and WW2.

You just don't get it Harry...Canada is a child of England...all growed up and coming back home as an adult after making our way in the New World...its our home as well as our Mothers...and we are coming flush with cash Ma...flush with the green stuff! 

You are like the grumpy Old Man who is mad we left the sharecropper farm in the first place and doesn't properly welcome a good Son home.

WHAT DO YA WANT MA?..WHAT CAN I GET YA MA?

[winnyason]

10 minutes ago, SL17 said:

They nearly didn't at one point,hence the parachute payment put in place by SL clubs for, just in case. So that clearly should have sent a message out to you.

The game is a different scenario now. If TWP are accepted by SL, then good luck to them. But I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah we see. Away from parody remarks. I can see the fear by many with the usa expansion thoughts. I suppose my way of looking can we not embrace both expansion and tradition.

Look at the way castleford recovered both on and off the field. From yo yoing from superleague to champ. To making gf fews years ago.

Imo a 2nd french side in superleague has more merit than any of this. Purely for reach of toulouse and stadiums they have access to. England need a decent side to play on there doorstep and i believe this won't happen til toulouse play sl its a waste even having matches until then. 

The usa/canada thing - look great on the surface but my way if there all these other sides lining up philly, hamiton along with new york, Ottawa and existing wp. Why don't they simply look at they own league. As a code lets bring them in BUT there needs to be plan for there own pro league. 

[Kayakman]

53 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

They love the Northern Union, they don't even know they do.......they hate the North of England with a passion 'small time this........small town that'.......'Can't afford this.....xenophobia that'...we know who'll get the blame when it all goes pair shaped......not the oh so glamourous teams with the millionaire / billionaire (don't know the difference, that's why us working class broke away from Yawnion in the 1st Place  probably) owners, it'll be us fans (who need replacing anyway, apparently) 

People over here like England...especially the North.  Many people (including myself) have deep historical roots there...I think you are not properly dealing with many other issues exposed in your post, unrelated to the Wolfpack or Canada at all.

You've got to get a grip on this inferiority complex you are displaying....Come to Toronto for a game!...relax in the famous beer garden!..watch the Pack run and then kill!....its a nice way to pass the time and it will make you relax a bit!

[Copa]

1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

But we have Wolfpack Beer!

Not fair! We only have milk.

 

[winnyason]

33 minutes ago, SL17 said:

All fair comments and I respect them all. The biggest question being the player pool? We are still guilty of not producing players in quantity and that is based on many factors that have been dictated too, by the way the sport decided to go.

It is time for change. Is the answer NA,US? At present, no! But its all the game has to go on.

If it looks right,it probably is right...

 

The code biggest opportunity for expanding pro player pool is pacific but you would not say there 100 pro players waiting at the airport.

France while starting to produce geniune stars in gigot and fages hav been slow to develop and really not enough. 

The main issue with wolfpack and 2 other usa expansions. Is there simply little or no development happening behind the scenes nor in canada is it being planned. Wolfpack aligning themselves with rugby union. For instance if dragons or toulouse went back to elite or the famed super xiii was started, there still a line of juniors and around 80 to 90 clubs. 

Canada and the wolfpack needs to start to with credibilty develop a strong local league. Jamacia has alot more domestic happening. If wolfpack where to fall over the fans would simply walk away or switch to watch the national rugby u side. 

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, winnyason said:

Yeah we see. Away from parody remarks. I can see the fear by many with the usa expansion thoughts. I suppose my way of looking can we not embrace both expansion and tradition.

Look at the way castleford recovered both on and off the field. From yo yoing from superleague to champ. To making gf fews years ago.

Imo a 2nd french side in superleague has more merit than any of this. Purely for reach of toulouse and stadiums they have access to. England need a decent side to play on there doorstep and i believe this won't happen til toulouse play sl its a waste even having matches until then. 

The usa/canada thing - look great on the surface but my way if there all these other sides lining up philly, hamiton along with new york, Ottawa and existing wp. Why don't they simply look at they own league. As a code lets bring them in BUT there needs to be plan for there own pro league. 

I agree with you, they should look at their own league because the likes of Toronto and New York playing in the UK structure is a mix of oil and water in so many ways.

Understand though, that because their whole marketing approach is based on the transatlantic aspect of things that league would have to be transatlantic too.  It would need teams in places like London and other big cities over there to go along with the Torontos and New Yorks and attract the kind of TV and sponsorship money needed to underwrite it.

[Omott91]

20 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, most of the Chairmen I can think of are wealthy and in their (rugby) position not because they have had some inherent wealth to fall back on but quite the opposite in that they are self-made, they would most probably be life long supporter's standing on the terraces with their mates from an early age and also natives from the town of who's club's they finance.

If I am correct, please explain to me at what point will they decide that all of the work, time and energy they have given to their clubs (the one that is in their DNA) will come second to putting other clubs before their own, you may be missing the point but that duty to the fans and sponsers I state also affects them, they will also most probably be their clubs biggest fan and sponser, being wealty they could choose hundreds of ways to spend their well earned and time, but they choose to use those commodities on what is closest to their hearts. 

Of course they have a duty to the game, but to say that should be their No1 priority I strongly disagree, as I said "Charity begins at home" it is human nature to look after that first.

 

Thanks for your reply but I still believe that the duty of care is to the game as priority number one so that the product is still attractive enough for the fans to continue coming in decades time, not short term thinking and looking after yourself especially if the downward trend across the m62 continues, albeit slowly. Chairmen need to ensure that the game thrives into the next generation, putting self interest first and blocking NA expansion (you could bet your house that it won't happen) will not allow this. 

 

[Omott91]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

“In 2019 Penrith will field a staggering 9000 junior players across a record 580 teams, including 54 female sides”. As I understand it TWP’s junior development programme still stands at zero players in their third year, but worse than that they haven't signed to Canada RL to even start any development. So no "new blood" at all in Toronto now or in the future eh? What an offer that is!!

Penrith have been around for 50years and are located in the worlds largest rugby league market. Twp 3years in an emerging market. Hardly comparing applies with apples.

You have been asking for signs of NA domestic player development for 3years now. How does this suit your criteria for acceptance.
https://www.rugbyleagueplanet.com/united-states/new-york-rugby-league-franchise-and-usa-rugby-league-llc-form-partnership

What's your opinion? Serious question.

[North but south]

8 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Cost of living where ?

At the moment it isn't a factor but if they start to play a majority of games in north america then it would make sense to base the players in canada.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Sorry Tommy but your changing the goalposts as everyone does to get around the reality. The criteria for bringing extra money into the game as a whole is develop more pro-players to stock more teams and sell those extra pro teams to TV for more money. Then put that money in the pool for all to share.

It isn’t overseas owners personal  “sponsorship”, it isn’t “just rich people wanting a toy” we need. If it was, all Argylle or any rich person has to do is sponsor Superleague for £11,000,000 a season or better still just offer the 11 other clubs £1Million each for the purchase of a place in Superleague. Then they get to play with their toy without having to do the hard work and develop any players or TV deals.

You’ll end up with a total farce. And the rejection of North American clubs is exactly that – to stop a load of alleged rich playboys coming in, offering nothing of substance, then swanning off when they get bored. 

As has been proven time and time again that's only your criteria.

Your own editing has deceived you here. Personal sponsorship was not mentioned. Sponsorship comes from companies who want to have exposure and association to other brands through their own network of exposure. As discussed on another thread SL sponsorship is currently a pittance at some clubs - going on some firms expenses books they're so low. No wonder several SL teams cannot afford to spend to cap despite being literally handed that money through the TV deal. Grow the reach of the game to grow the sponsorship potential. 

They've brought in crowds to watch live RL in greater numbers than do at a number of SL clubs. Those fans are active on social media. In the modern world they are pushing harder than lots of teams. On Instagram for example they have more followers than Wakefield and Cas combined (after 3 years), in fact, only Leeds and Wigan have more followers. I for one am very happy that I'm more likely to not get looked at confused for being an RL fan in one of the largest cities in the world because of the support the WP have grown in a very short amount of time. I value those new fans as highly important to the future of the sport. 

Finally on the 'rich playboys', they've already come in via the backdoor - just sadly not into Super League. They're in the NRL and Northern Hemisphere rugby union. They could and do poach our best players at will because we don't have them in our league. Sadly that is the way of professional sport these days, but if the choice is between seeing for example Kallum Watkins playing for Toronto in SL or the Titans in the NRL or worse Leicester in RU, I know exactly which one I'd pick. Super League is just waking up to the fact it doesn't exist in its own bubble, the marquee player and RU returner rule on the Salary cap proves that. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

As Toronto Wolfpack are based in Manchester and employ mostly British & Australians, which players count as overseas players? Would it be a Canadian one? 

As I said Hemel they should be regarded as a British team in the respect of overseas players, playing to the same rules as any other team.

[North but south]

Years 

9 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

Is it because living in Manchester is cheaper than Toronto ? 

Toronto isn't that bad. The average cost of living in Toronto is £18000, with the current exchange rates, per year. The average cost of living in Manchester, tenth most expensive city in the UK, is £16800 per year, still 30% cheaper than London. The average wage in Toronto is £32100. The average wage in Manchester is £26700.

Tax brackets is were it gets interesting

Canada: based on taxable income (whatever that means) 15% to $45,282. 20.5% on $45,283 - $90,563. 26% on $90,564 - $140,388. 29% on $140,389 - $200,000. 33% over $200,000.

Uk: 0% up to £12,500. 20% on £12,501 - £50,000. 40% on £50,001 - £150,000. 45% on over £150,000.

Tax saved by a player on £150,000 being paid via Canadian wages is significant.

[Smudger06]

6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

People over here like England...especially the North.  Many people (including myself) have deep historical roots there...I think you are not properly dealing with many other issues exposed in your post, unrelated to the Wolfpack or Canada at all.

You've got to get a grip on this inferiority complex you are displaying....Come to Toronto for a game!...relax in the famous beer garden!..watch the Pack run and then kill!....its a nice way to pass the time and it will make you relax a bit!

No.....nothing exposed or displayed........merely a response to the many derogatory and condescending comments on this thread and plenty of others on this forum. 

[fighting irish]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

What players we have are just enough to support the game here.

You lot leach off the game here you'll suck the blood out of it mate.

“In 2019 Penrith will field a staggering 9000 junior players across a record 580 teams, including 54 female sides”. As I understand it TWP’s junior development programme still stands at zero players in their third year, but worse than that they haven't signed to Canada RL to even start any development. So no "new blood" at all in Toronto now or in the future eh? What an offer that is!!

I hope you don't mind me quoting only a part of your last post. On the first two lines, I agree with you.

The numbers you quote in your comments about Penrith could be multiplied by 10 times if all the other Australian NRL districts were counted. A much bigger percentage of these players will become super league quality than we ever see represented each week on the Australian television coverage. There are also loads of quality players who just don't stay long as NRL first teamers.

The average tenure of a player in the NRL first grade is very short. The reason for this, is the white-heat of competition for places. These players then, play reserve grade, or go back to country football or drop out. If I were running Toronto I'd be looking there for players to fill my squad if the salary cap doesn't prevent them looking.

I can tell you love Rugby League, Parky and for that I salute you. We need bl**dy good answers to all your objections. Not to shut you up, but to make sure, your worst fears don't become reality and the whole game is destroyed. Your devil's advocate stance presents a very serious challenge to all the dreamers naivety so its a very valuable contribution to the debate. 

Toronto (and any others) should engage with the existing amateur Canadian RL (as the NY people seem to have begun with USARL) and begin the long development process. That they haven't done so, doesn't inspire confidence.

Robert Elstone (and the SL chairmen, owners) will, I'm sure, be mindful of your fears and will be trying to work out a way to let these people in at the right level and at the right pace, without ''sucking the blood out of us'' here. I just hope they can find a way. Rejecting them, out of hand just seems shabby.

As a footnote, why aren't we producing 9000 junior players in our districts? I believe we have done, what you accuse Toronto of, and neglected our ''duty'' to foster the game in new areas. Its not the games fault. I believe it can be done, if its done right because this is the greatest sporting product on earth.

[Smudger06]

7 hours ago, Kayakman said:

People over here like England...especially the North.  Many people (including myself) have deep historical roots there...I think you are not properly dealing with many other issues exposed in your post, unrelated to the Wolfpack or Canada at all.

You've got to get a grip on this inferiority complex you are displaying....Come to Toronto for a game!...relax in the famous beer garden!..watch the Pack run and then kill!....its a nice way to pass the time and it will make you relax a bit!

I've been to Canada several times mate, through work, not Toronto though, I've also got relatives over in Alberta, right out in the sticks, my grandfather's brother went there so my generation of my relatives are Canadian. They still have a feeling of belonging to England and Yorkshire. Believe it or not the vast majority of people over here have affection for Canada and Australia as well. 

When I cross the pond these days I take my kids to Florida, so a Sports trip to Toronto isn't going to happen for me as for just a little more money I can get a return flight and 14 nights in Orlando for 4 rather than a return flight and 3 nights in Toronto for 2.

TWP is a Rugby League Club so I don't want it to fail, the genuine fans in the Greater Toronto Area it's managed to hook would be left abandoned and it wouldn't be down to us fans in the North of England it would be down to its own ownership, either jumping ship or switching codes when things got a bit too pricey........

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, North but south said:

Tax brackets is were it gets interesting

Canada: based on taxable income (whatever that means) 15% to $45,282. 20.5% on $45,283 - $90,563. 26% on $90,564 - $140,388. 29% on $140,389 - $200,000. 33% over $200,000.

Uk: 0% up to £12,500. 20% on £12,501 - £50,000. 40% on £50,001 - £150,000. 45% on over £150,000.

Tax saved by a player on £150,000 being paid via Canadian wages is significant.

I can help you there, taxable income is total income minus allowable deductions.  A few of those remain, the rest (such as the basic exemption, 65+ age exemption, exemption for supporting a non-working spouse etc.) were converted from deductions to credits which equal the basic rate (15% now) multiplied by the amount which was previously deductible back in the 1980s; those exemption amounts automatically increase with inflation each year up to (if memory serves) a maximum of 3%.

That said, the rates you quoted are just for federal income tax.  Provincial income tax rates vary from province to province, as do the provincial equivalents of those federal exemptions amounts.